I test drove a Mustang today.

[cvandenhaute]

I always did feel that a Mustang needs a bit more time that just a test drive to seduce. I did rent a few recent V6 (with Automatic, definitely not what I'd buy, test drove GT manual and started to like it after one hour driving it). I was never impressed at the beginning but had a hard time to give it back at the end of my travel after a few days. I feel like it grows on my with time. I don't feel it that big (definitely bigger than the 1 series, which is why I bought it) but way smaller and better visibility that a Camaro. The Camaro feels HUGE, does not give any thrills and does not sound good (either V6 and SS), too muted

[BBBluey]

I wonder on a poll, how many of you posting on this thread have kept your 1 series stock...and if you have modded, would you have performed the same mods on the mustang had you bought it instead. Also, what would be the price difference in those exact same mods between prts for mustang and bmw...would those mods be the same bang for buck?

I'm considering trading in my 1 for a Mustang as well or selling it to put down the $ for an AC cobra...but that's a different ave.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by roo97ss

Yes, we're way out of touch with many here. We're also likley the guys that enjoy the 1 series with the DSC disabled too, and aren't even remotely afraid of it. the first time I saw guys talking about TIM YOY as if you're out of your mind to take your life in your own hands with a car as planted, stable and understeering as the 1 i didn't know how to reply. The 1 is very good, so good that i keep it as my daily driver and couldn't imagine driving a challenger, camaro, mustang or even the vette daily. I enjoy the 1 immensely for that purpose, it feels small, is nimble and my favorite car to take into the city, whether it be Philly or NYC. But when i want that sh!t eating grin on my face, sliding the vette sideways....anywhere at anytime with a v8 roar (old school american here) is just what the dr. ordered.

I am actually extremely happy someone else is on the same page as me. It just seems as everybody is on the BMW bandwagon so hard and overlooks flaws or refuses to believe that cars for the same price or less actually do have qualities and plusses that their car might not. Btw your corvette sounds sweet, whats it put down to the wheels? For my next car I am considering either a 996 gt3 or a z06.

[1speedbike]

Originally Posted by roo97ss

Yes, we're way out of touch with many here. We're also likley the guys that enjoy the 1 series with the DSC disabled too, and aren't even remotely afraid of it.

Mine's always off, unless it's raining or snowing, or my girlfriend is in the car. And even then it's in DTC

But...

Originally Posted by RPM90

Other than agreeing with you that the 135i suspension needs refinement, my 135i driving experience has been nothing like yours.
Mine rides nicely even on rough pavement.
It rarely "crashes" into any bumps.
RFT's don't help the chassis at all, but a swap to non RFT's made the ride even nicer.
I have no rattles in my car and the roads around the Chicago area are not butter smooth either.

In terms of dash layout and interior materials, the 1 isn't the pinnacle of "best". But compared to the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger or Charger, the 1 series is better designed, better integrated, looks much nicer, and has overall better materials than those muscle cars.

The Camaro is a straight up let down. It's HUGE on the outside and cramped on the inside. The interior looks to marry 70's asthetic with 80's boombox electronics. Not nice at all.

The Challenger is also much TOO big with half the car being the massive hood. Interior materials are nice, but overall design is retro dull.

The Mustang has a better size, but it sits so freaking tall on it's tires.
Where the 1's tallness looks interesting and odd, the Mustang just looks wrong. The interiors overall design isn't bad, but it tries too hard to be retro especially the gauges. Inside it feels much more cramped than my 135i. American interior space packaging needs work in their sport cars.

Americans can do nice interiors. The new Buick's have very nice interiors and exteriors and materials are up to the asking price.
The Malibu interior is NOTHING like the old GM "melted dash" look.
They are very modern and tasteful.
The Cruze is especially nice for such a low cost. If the Camaro were 1/3 smaller and had the Cruze's interior it would be in the running for my next car, but it isn't and doesn't.
Heck even the Hyundai Elantra, Sonata, and Genesis coupe have much nicer interiors than any of the Muscle cars.

Muscle cars is where American auto makers are failing to attract buyers who want refinement with their sport. The cost of those cars isn't much lower than what a 1 or 3 coupe costs when you opt for the top performers and better parts like Brembo brakes and higher spec suspensions.
So, put some of that money into the interior design and construction.
Enthusiasts like me really want alternatives for different driving experiences. But, I'm not going to pay just for engine and legacy icons imagery.

My sentiments echo these exactly. I get the whole muscle car love thing, my girlfriend's family is obsessed with them. We go to Wildwood NJ every fall to see the giant classic car show

But there are some things American cars do well, and some things German cars do well. There are definitely flaws to the Germans, quirks really. There are definitely flaws in the American cars that American car lovers tend to overlook as well. My girlfriend's brother never saw what was so special about my 1er compared to his mustang until I offered a test drive, traction control off. Even with the stock suspension back then he said it's definitely a more refined experience.

Some people fall in love with raw, guttural power. Others fall in love with surgical precision. I think it's obvious which car is which (as long as you ditch the RFT's and upgrade the suspension on the 1er, or at least a sway bar).

You also have to remember that the 1er (and all BMWs) is designed as a car that the businessman can take to work. Even an M3 is equally at home going to the grocery store as it is on the track (though i'd call blasphemy!). Why is the M3 so loved? Not because it has the fastest lap times, or the biggest engine.. it's that balance and tuning and all-around-ness. That's what BMW does well and that's why in all out performance tests, of course BMW's lose to Porches etc. BMWs are great all-around cars which provide a butt-ton of fun, and that's why they're so versatile and great. I wouldn't normally expect a luxury sports coupe to even be on the same level as a performance edition Mustang... but it's really great that it's so close. So it's not even really fair to compare what an American company builds as a performance car to what a German company builds as an everything car. If you want to compare performance car to performance car, look at mustangs vs boxsters..

Originally Posted by juliansorl

I wish I could take a shrink ray to both the Camaro and the Mustang.

Awesome idea!

[TX78666]

I had a CBR 600 rocket years ago. A friend had a Harley hardtail, and lived the part. He was ALWAYS ragging on me, for my Japanese bike. One day, he told me to trade with him for the day, so I could understand where he was coming from.

At the end of the day, we traded back. His comments to me started with "If you tell any of my friends I said this, I'll kill you..."

He also had one of the first Mustangs I drove. I thought it was a ton of fun, even when I got it sideways and shot it right off the road. He was not amused. He was even less amused when I threw it into reverse, straightened it out, and got back on the road. Apparently he thought that when I stopped within inches of a tree, the ride was over. :-)

I still like Mustangs, and every time a new one comes out, I consider it. I prefer the 1-er. I also prefer it over pretty much every other BMW, although it was a really tough call between it, and the Z4M. Ultimately, visibility won out, on that front.

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I am actually extremely happy someone else is on the same page as me. It just seems as everybody is on the BMW bandwagon so hard and overlooks flaws or refuses to believe that cars for the same price or less actually do have qualities and plusses that their car might not. Btw your corvette sounds sweet, whats it put down to the wheels? For my next car I am considering either a 996 gt3 or a z06.

I looked at two gt3s. Much better 'feel' than the vette but a lot more expensive to buythe and om sure to fix as well. The vette was 20k cheaper and had all of 4200 miles on it and the work already done at a good shop. Guy just used to take to car shows and cruise on Sunday.

Its 565rwhp was going to waste until I got my hands on it.

[Ash83]

Mustang = Great Engine, ahh Okay tranny, horrible interior and suspension.

[GONFLYN]

Man, Ford is coming on strong in a lot of respects with the 5.0. Before owning three bimmers, a 330i, 335i and now a 135i, I had a 94 Camaro z28 and an 01 Trans Am. I'm a sucker for muscle cars and appreciate them for what they are - cars with big engines, cool styling, V8 attitude, and great bang for the buck.

Every few years my wandering eye gets tempted back to the dark side by the latest and greatest from Detroit and for the first time in years, the Mustang has looked more appealing than the Camaro to me, which, much as I appreciate the badass styling, has become too large and bloated for me to consider as a reasonably tossable sports car.

I think the Mustang is now the only American vehicle that keeps the true pony car tradition alive. I remember when they redesigned the stang in 05 it caught my attention. After years of nondescript styling and the noodly fox platform, there was a spark of something decent.

I loved, (and still do) the retro homage, the traditional, symetrical, twin cockpit layout of the dash just like the original and the squat, muscular exterior (interestingly the same sort of pugnacious butchness that attracted me to my 135i). But everytime I would get into one, my heart would just sink. The cheapness of the interior materials on the Mustang as well as the Camaro, Corvette and especially the Challenger after drving BMWs for a few years always seems to start things off on the wrong foot before even turning the key.

Fast forward to the latest Stang incarnation. Interior is getting better, the center console is still vaguely cheesy but at least doesnt look like something out of an 82 Ford Futura anymore and most of the buttons have an improved tactile feel and action. Add a few tasteful body tweaks and, most importantly, the 5.0, and the package is worth a look yet again.

I test drove a 2012 GT manual the other day and thought it looked good, sounded good, had generally decent handling and excellent power. Only two things turned me off about the car - it still has the live real axle that hops around like Michael Jackson with his hair on fire around rough corners, and the manual gearbox. I thought that, after enjoying the 135i's sublimely easy stick, the Mustangs tranny seemed noticabaly agricultural and unrefined.

I found that, during hard shifting, it sometimes would not go into fourth gear, resulting in an embarassing grind and a little frantic double clutch work to continue. Indeed, after some research, I found out that there is a NTSHA investigation into many complaints with this box, a potential deal breaker for me if not addressed. Another turnoff - I discovered this tranny is made in China. So much for buying American. This is starting to serve as a painful reminder of why I switched from American sports cars to Bimmers almost ten years ago - my concerns over quality. And I really, really wanted to like the latest Mustang unconditionally.

So, all said and done would I buy one? Well, I think if I were looking for a truckload of performance and didnt want to shell out the cash another BMW, I would defintely consider it. Despite its flaws, its still a pretty good offering from Ford.

Meanwhile, the 135i still beats it by a hair performancewise and by a mile in quality, fit and finish. Think I'm gonna stick with my lil sleeper for a while.

[tccox]

The Mustangs transmission is a Getrag manufactured at a Chinese factory jointly operated by Ford and Getrag. Wonder when some of those Chinese Trans will start showing up in BMWs ???

"Ford and Getrag build the MT82 at a joint venture in China; the same design has been used by Getrag in other vehicles worldwide. Since it went into production in late 2010, Ford has made two mechanical changes, fixing a bolt that was prone to slipping out and recommending owners switch transmission fluids"

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/ford-def...omplaints.html

[J0E]

Wow, you people are depressing. 1Addicts? This site should be renamed 1Cynics.

[GONFLYN]

Originally Posted by tccox

The Mustangs transmission is a Getrag manufactured at a Chinese factory jointly operated by Ford and Getrag. Wonder when some of those Chinese Trans will start showing up in BMWs ???

"Ford and Getrag build the MT82 at a joint venture in China; the same design has been used by Getrag in other vehicles worldwide. Since it went into production in late 2010, Ford has made two mechanical changes, fixing a bolt that was prone to slipping out and recommending owners switch transmission fluids"

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/ford-def...omplaints.html

Yeah, its a global world and its probably unrealistic to assume that Chinese parts arent going show up in even upscale vehicles eventually. Even tho Chinese made may hold a negative connotation for myself and many others, I can imagine quality improving to the point where being made in China will be perfectly acceptable and, like the japanese now, maybe even desirable --which ultimately I'm okay with in certain applications, ie in a $30,000 Mustang but perhaps not in a $70,000 M3. At any rate, dealing with issues along the way and continually impoving quality will be critical to the Chinese image.

[doublevanosrc]

Originally Posted by Ash83

Mustang = Great Engine, ahh Okay tranny, horrible interior and suspension.

Might wanna take suspension out of the horrible section, the 5.0 handles just as well as the E92 M3 and the Boss whips the 1M and M3. Admit it or not BMW doesn't have the dominance that it had 15 years ago. Yeah they are still wonderful driving cars that are refined and well made. But they have tilted the balance towards the luxurious side instead of performance.

[davefromfla]

Except when you drive it every day. Rented the 5.0 when I went to Barrett Jackson this year. Great in many ways. However- the guy that said it was like Michael Jackson with his hair on fire around curves was on the money.

Great power, so so interior, handling leaves much to be desired in the real world.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by GONFLYN

Yeah, its a global world and its probably unrealistic to assume that Chinese parts arent going show up in even upscale vehicles eventually. Even tho Chinese made may hold a negative connotation for myself and many others, I can imagine quality improving to the point where being made in China will be perfectly acceptable and, like the japanese now, maybe even desirable --which ultimately I'm okay with in certain applications, ie in a $30,000 Mustang but perhaps not in a $70,000 M3. At any rate, dealing with issues along the way and continually impoving quality will be critical to the Chinese image.

I saw on German TV this week that the very first Chinese made BUS has shown up in Germany. It passed its TÜV. It had a German made tranmision(!), and engine from Sweeden(I think) and a diff from India(Tata?). I remember thinking doesn't the Chinese know how to make those components? They plan on bringing in fourteen more Chinese buses this year. 80K euros I think. Cheap by bus standards. The thing the TÜV guy said was service costs down the road might be high because of the way teh bus was built. No thought to repairs in the field.

[brusk]

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

Might wanna take suspension out of the horrible section, the 5.0 handles just as well as the E92 M3 and the Boss whips the 1M and M3. Admit it or not BMW doesn't have the dominance that it had 15 years ago. Yeah they are still wonderful driving cars that are refined and well made. But they have tilted the balance towards the luxurious side instead of performance.

I think that's only the case with the Laguna Seca edition. But Ford did finally figure out how to get the live axle to handle good and get some traction.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by 135-dmc

Except when you drive it every day. Rented the 5.0 when I went to Barrett Jackson this year. Great in many ways. However- the guy that said it was like Michael Jackson with his hair on fire around curves was on the money.

Great power, so so interior, handling leaves much to be desired in the real world.

Gotta disagree with you. My buddy has the Mustang. the car handles better than the 135. I've driven the car quite a bit. The GT stays flat and puts the power down nicely. It has an actual LSD. The 135 in the other hand, narrow wheel base, no LSD and in just about every review I've seen its called an bad understeer monster when pushed hard.

[brusk]

I really hate these arguments given most of them are seat of the pants feel that really doesn't add up to more than an addition to the fun factor of a car. What basis are you referring to handling road holding? slalom? on the street or on the track?

I test drove a Miata that handles better than most cars I've driven but when I looked at the speedometer on an exit ramp the Z4 I test drove before it was doing 4MPH faster and didn't feel as safe so which was "handling" better? People handle and feel better in different kind of cars you can take somebody that can do amazing things in a Camaro but put them in Porsche and they can't hardly drive does that mean the Camaro handled better no but that person would tell everybody his Camaro would handle better.

In most cases a professional driver could make it around the track about as fast without an LSD than he could with one in most cars, until the power gets to be too much.

As for wheelbase not sure if you are referring to the Track width? cause the wheelbase is only about 2.5" shorter than the mustang not enough to really argue with but the mustang does have a wider track. Again does this really matter? on the street with comparable cars you are usually faster in what you are more comfortable with.

Either way drive what makes you happy, I know my 1 series makes me a lot happier than any of the Eclipse, Evo, WRX, Supra, Acuras, Hondas, Toyota's that I've owned.

[NYC6]

I own a 135 and like it just fine. That said, that doesnt preclude me from forming honest oninions on other vehicles. Of the more than 15-20 cars I've owned only 2 have been front wheel drivers. Many years of rear wheel drive cars(performance and otherwise) exp. Bought a new Mini S in 09 but traded it in on the 135 within a year because I couldnt stand the tq steer and general handling characteristics. Your list of owned cars seem very FWD heavy.
The 135 handles OK for my DD, it makes me happy in that purpose. I own another RWD sports car for serious work.
Of course 'narrow' wheel base means width. Thought everyone knows that. Im glad we're both happy with our 1's.

[brusk]

Originally Posted by NYC6

I own a 135 and like it just fine. That said, that doesnt preclude me from forming honest oninions on other vehicles. Of the more than 15-20 cars I've owned only 2 have been front wheel drivers. Many years of rear wheel drive cars(performance and otherwise) exp. Bought a new Mini S in 09 but traded it in on the 135 within a year because I couldnt stand the tq steer and general handling characteristics. Your list of owned cars seem very FWD heavy.
The 135 handles OK for my DD, it makes me happy in that purpose. I own another RWD sports car for serious work.
Of course 'narrow' wheel base means width. Thought everyone knows that. Im glad we're both happy with our 1's.

Mix of FWD, RWD, AWD and mid engine cars. Not saying that there isn't better handling cars but it's just such a personal preference when it comes to cars that have limits higher than the average drivers skills. Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear wheels. Track is the width.

[BimmerEnthusiast99]

Originally Posted by brusk

Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear wheels. Track is the width.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by brusk

Mix of FWD, RWD, AWD and mid engine cars. Not saying that there isn't better handling cars but it's just such a personal preference when it comes to cars that have limits higher than the average drivers skills. Wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear wheels. Track is the width.

I stand corrected on that matter.
Of course its a personal preference. I was speaking from this mans point of view regarding my opinions on the two cars. I owned the BMW for 2 years now and have had Mustangs in the past and as I mentioned, have a decent amount of seat time in the latest Mustang. Given the 2 choices in stock condition, for track work(or spirited canyon carving) I'll take the Ford.
From the many 'professional' reviews I've come across regarding both cars handling characteristics, I think most would favor the Ford also.

[Ash83]

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

Might wanna take suspension out of the horrible section, the 5.0 handles just as well as the E92 M3 and the Boss whips the 1M and M3. Admit it or not BMW doesn't have the dominance that it had 15 years ago. Yeah they are still wonderful driving cars that are refined and well made. But they have tilted the balance towards the luxurious side instead of performance.

I do not think a stock 5.0 will handle as an M3!!! Comparing an M3 to a stock 5.0 is blasphemy..

I see Boss as OEM tuner not stock so If you wanna talk about it then you should look into tuned M3s, 1s ..etc.