135 N54 or N55?

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by FOACAD

I have a 2012 that i recently took to the 'ring.....i wish so much that i had a DCT for that.

The DCT IS a proper transmission, no bones about it, and it actually shifts faster than any human in a manual.


Get an N55 w/ DCT, go full bolt ons with the M suspension bits and some track specific wheels with race takeoffs. It will be more power than you need and will suffice for a long time as you most likely wont grow out of it very quickly.

I agree that it shifts faster than i can. Im just saying my personal preference is manual. Ive raced open wheel formula cars and touring cars for a few years now and i prefer the feel you get with a manual. You know exactly when the clutch is going to engage, and going to disengage, but im just picky like that.

[Willizm]

Regardless of power capabilities I think alot of this boils down to transmission selection. I would not track my 335xi with auto trans, so I picked up an n54 135i with 6speed. If your trans selection comes down to a n54 with auto vs an n55 with dct, i'd say go DCT. If you are wanting a manual trans go n54 and save some money.

[Dubso]

N55, only if you stay under 360ps or you prefer the DCT. N54 Does Have more tuning options. N55 crank is its achilles heel though. Id rather invest in stuff like you said...handling, minor mods, and def weight loss+ same power= more speed

[inline.6]

n54 will make more power now, but i feel like the N55 is on its way to many more things. Its gunna recieve an upgraded twin scroll soon enough and if its block is close to the N54's than watch out!

[M135]

Ahh the N54 crowd is looking single turbo now, it won't take long and someone will look at a good aftermarket twin scroll for the N55 and make things even.

[lcrain]

IMO power should not be your biggest concern if you are looking to track. I think you will be happy with either in the power department in stock form on the track. Put a tune on either and you will be more than satisfied. I would save the money on power mods and focus on setting up the chassis to handle better and put the power down. M3 bits + D/A coils + sways + limited slip diff + install will cost you a small fortune (6-8k unless you can do it all yourself). Then you have the issue of fitting bigger tires. I know some have fit a 255/275 combo but that will take a lot of fender work and camber to achieve.

What is your goal on the track? If it's smooth driving then I don't think pushing either engine to achieve highest peak HP number is a good idea. While I love boost, on the track it is very hard to manage. The beauty of these engines in stock form is little to no lag and a fairly flat curve. I have the 1M and while I know I could pick up noticeable power with a tune, I am very hesitant to do so until I am convinced a tuner can retain the linear feel BMW got from the factory. There is a reason why M3s, GT3s etc. are so popular for track cars: the power is linear and easy to predict. As I relatively new track driver I would be terrified of experiencing too much torque/power out of a turn and make a stupid mistake.

So to me it comes down to DCT vs. 6mt. I think in the long run, obviously, the 6mt will be cheaper to run and if power is your goal, it will be the better choice. I have read mixed reviews on the DCT put in the 135s too. The only DCT I have driven is out of the M3 and it was phenomenal. That said, I think a lightening fast shifting transmission is better suited to the high revving v8 in the M3. I don't know enough about the transmission to really make any comments. I have always been a manual fan and the 6mt is perfect for the nature of the turbo charged n54/5. The power band is so easy to hit that you don't have to be shifting like a madman necessarily to take advantage of all the torque that is available.

IMO what make the 135 such a great car is the weight, not necessarily the engine.

[ilikebmxbikes]

I dont think people should just rule out a N55 because the N54 has more power mods. Power mods dont directly translate into a good track car.

Either car with full suspension mods and a LSD will put it down on the track.

As people have noted:
N54 - more power mods
N55 - dct

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by lcrain

IMO power should not be your biggest concern if you are looking to track. I think you will be happy with either in the power department in stock form on the track. Put a tune on either and you will be more than satisfied. I would save the money on power mods and focus on setting up the chassis to handle better and put the power down. M3 bits + D/A coils + sways + limited slip diff + install will cost you a small fortune (6-8k unless you can do it all yourself). Then you have the issue of fitting bigger tires. I know some have fit a 255/275 combo but that will take a lot of fender work and camber to achieve.

What is your goal on the track? If it's smooth driving then I don't think pushing either engine to achieve highest peak HP number is a good idea. While I love boost, on the track it is very hard to manage. The beauty of these engines in stock form is little to no lag and a fairly flat curve. I have the 1M and while I know I could pick up noticeable power with a tune, I am very hesitant to do so until I am convinced a tuner can retain the linear feel BMW got from the factory. There is a reason why M3s, GT3s etc. are so popular for track cars: the power is linear and easy to predict. As I relatively new track driver I would be terrified of experiencing too much torque/power out of a turn and make a stupid mistake.

So to me it comes down to DCT vs. 6mt. I think in the long run, obviously, the 6mt will be cheaper to run and if power is your goal, it will be the better choice. I have read mixed reviews on the DCT put in the 135s too. The only DCT I have driven is out of the M3 and it was phenomenal. That said, I think a lightening fast shifting transmission is better suited to the high revving v8 in the M3. I don't know enough about the transmission to really make any comments. I have always been a manual fan and the 6mt is perfect for the nature of the turbo charged n54/5. The power band is so easy to hit that you don't have to be shifting like a madman necessarily to take advantage of all the torque that is available.

IMO what make the 135 such a great car is the weight, not necessarily the engine.

+1 -

[M3Newbie88]

Not to be an ass but here is your answer.. N55 is not on this list yes I am biased so now you can flame me!!

--------------------------------

Four BMW Engines Win 2012 Engine of the Year Awards - the N20, N54, S65, N13

Engine of the Year Awards 2012: BMW Group scores with four, six and eight cylinders.

13.06.2012

Four award-winners spanning a displacement range of 1.6 to 4.0 litres – BMW Group again emerges as the most successful auto manufacturer in the internationally renowned engine contest.

Munich / Stuttgart. Unbeaten titleholders and triumphant newcomers have secured the BMW Group’s renewed pre-eminence at the 2012 International Engine of the Year Awards. Powerplants guaranteeing efficient power delivery in current BMW and MINI models topped no fewer than four out of eight displacement categories. The quartet of trophy-winners comprised two four-cylinder engines, a straight-six and an eight-cylinder. Scooping up best-in-class wins were the 1.6-litre turbo unit of the MINI John Cooper S, the four-cylinder engine with BMW TwinPower Turbo technology that drives the new BMW 328i, among others, the straight-six with M TwinPower Turbo of the BMW 1 Series M Coupe, and the V8 under the bonnet of the BMW M3. This year’s winners were selected by an international panel of judges made up of 76 motoring journalists from 36 countries. The Engine of the Year Awards were presented against the backdrop of the Engine Expo trade fair in Stuttgart.

With these latest accolades, the BMW Group continues its winning streak in the world’s foremost engine competition. Thanks to the Group’s outstanding development expertise in this area, it has managed to notch up more than 50 class and overall wins at the International Engine of the Year Awards since 1999. In 2012, yet again, engines of widely differing design created for BMW and MINI models dominated a large number of displacement categories. Moreover, the latest title-winners span an unusually broad output spectrum ranging from 135 kW/184 hp to 309 kW/420 hp.

N13
The 2012 competition saw the prize in the 1.4-litre to 1.8-litre displacement class handed to the engine that drives the MINI Cooper S, in a reprise of its success last year. The 1.6-litre four-cylinder develops peak output of 135 kW/184 hp with the help of a twin-scroll turbocharger, direct petrol injection and variable valve control based on the BMW-patented VALVETRONIC technology. Among the key attributes of this unit are not only its eager power delivery but also exemplary efficiency for its class.

N20
Likewise providing enhanced driving pleasure coupled with extremely low fuel consumption and emission figures is the new 2.0-litre engine featuring BMW TwinPower Turbo technology. The 180 kW/245 hp four-cylinder turbocharged unit with High Precision Direct Injection and VALVETRONIC instantly won over the judges to capture the trophy in the 1.8-litre to 2.0-litre category. This engine is currently powering the new BMW 328i Sedan, BMW 528i and BMW Z4 sDrive28i, as well as the BMW X3 xDrive28i and BMW X1 xDrive28i models.

N54
The top accolade in the 2.5-litre to 3.0-litre class went to a six-cylinder in-line engine whose technology has already wowed the judges several times previously. Both in 2007 and in 2008, this 3.0-litre powerplant with twin turbochargers, High Precision Injection and Double-VANOS took the overall prize in the Engine of the Year Awards. It serves as the basis for both the M TwinPower Turbo unit inside the BMW 1 Series M Coupe and the BMW TwinPower Turbo engine of the BMW Z4 sDrive35is. Delivering 250 kW/340 hp, this thrillingly high-revving straight-six has reached its highest output level. The upshot is truly outstanding performance that has garnered it a further Engine of the Year Award.

S65
An achievement of this calibre is only exceeded by the string of successes claimed by the fourth BMW Group award-winner in 2012. For the fifth time in a row, the V8 engine of the BMW M3 high-performance sports car provides the measure of all things in the 3.0-litre to 4.0-litre displacement class. Bolstering the undiminished appeal of the 4.0-litre naturally aspirated engine are its hallmark M high-revving concept, peak output of 309 kW/420 hp and outstanding thrust. Beyond this, the eight-cylinder is compelling for its remarkable efficiency thanks to the Auto Start-Stop function, Brake Energy Regeneration and other Efficient Dynamics technologies.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...2#post12146692

[jpdb]

Originally Posted by 1LazyBmw

Not to be an ass but here is your answer.. N55 is not on this list yes I am biased so now you can flame me!!

--------------------------------

Four BMW Engines Win 2012 Engine of the Year Awards - the N20, N54, S65, N13

Engine of the Year Awards 2012: BMW Group scores with four, six and eight cylinders.

13.06.2012

Four award-winners spanning a displacement range of 1.6 to 4.0 litres – BMW Group again emerges as the most successful auto manufacturer in the internationally renowned engine contest.

Munich / Stuttgart. Unbeaten titleholders and triumphant newcomers have secured the BMW Group’s renewed pre-eminence at the 2012 International Engine of the Year Awards. Powerplants guaranteeing efficient power delivery in current BMW and MINI models topped no fewer than four out of eight displacement categories. The quartet of trophy-winners comprised two four-cylinder engines, a straight-six and an eight-cylinder. Scooping up best-in-class wins were the 1.6-litre turbo unit of the MINI John Cooper S, the four-cylinder engine with BMW TwinPower Turbo technology that drives the new BMW 328i, among others, the straight-six with M TwinPower Turbo of the BMW 1 Series M Coupe, and the V8 under the bonnet of the BMW M3. This year’s winners were selected by an international panel of judges made up of 76 motoring journalists from 36 countries. The Engine of the Year Awards were presented against the backdrop of the Engine Expo trade fair in Stuttgart.

With these latest accolades, the BMW Group continues its winning streak in the world’s foremost engine competition. Thanks to the Group’s outstanding development expertise in this area, it has managed to notch up more than 50 class and overall wins at the International Engine of the Year Awards since 1999. In 2012, yet again, engines of widely differing design created for BMW and MINI models dominated a large number of displacement categories. Moreover, the latest title-winners span an unusually broad output spectrum ranging from 135 kW/184 hp to 309 kW/420 hp.

N13
The 2012 competition saw the prize in the 1.4-litre to 1.8-litre displacement class handed to the engine that drives the MINI Cooper S, in a reprise of its success last year. The 1.6-litre four-cylinder develops peak output of 135 kW/184 hp with the help of a twin-scroll turbocharger, direct petrol injection and variable valve control based on the BMW-patented VALVETRONIC technology. Among the key attributes of this unit are not only its eager power delivery but also exemplary efficiency for its class.

N20
Likewise providing enhanced driving pleasure coupled with extremely low fuel consumption and emission figures is the new 2.0-litre engine featuring BMW TwinPower Turbo technology. The 180 kW/245 hp four-cylinder turbocharged unit with High Precision Direct Injection and VALVETRONIC instantly won over the judges to capture the trophy in the 1.8-litre to 2.0-litre category. This engine is currently powering the new BMW 328i Sedan, BMW 528i and BMW Z4 sDrive28i, as well as the BMW X3 xDrive28i and BMW X1 xDrive28i models.

N54
The top accolade in the 2.5-litre to 3.0-litre class went to a six-cylinder in-line engine whose technology has already wowed the judges several times previously. Both in 2007 and in 2008, this 3.0-litre powerplant with twin turbochargers, High Precision Injection and Double-VANOS took the overall prize in the Engine of the Year Awards. It serves as the basis for both the M TwinPower Turbo unit inside the BMW 1 Series M Coupe and the BMW TwinPower Turbo engine of the BMW Z4 sDrive35is. Delivering 250 kW/340 hp, this thrillingly high-revving straight-six has reached its highest output level. The upshot is truly outstanding performance that has garnered it a further Engine of the Year Award.

S65
An achievement of this calibre is only exceeded by the string of successes claimed by the fourth BMW Group award-winner in 2012. For the fifth time in a row, the V8 engine of the BMW M3 high-performance sports car provides the measure of all things in the 3.0-litre to 4.0-litre displacement class. Bolstering the undiminished appeal of the 4.0-litre naturally aspirated engine are its hallmark M high-revving concept, peak output of 309 kW/420 hp and outstanding thrust. Beyond this, the eight-cylinder is compelling for its remarkable efficiency thanks to the Auto Start-Stop function, Brake Energy Regeneration and other Efficient Dynamics technologies.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...2#post12146692

The N54 is there only because this last year it made more power from factory, the years before that the N55 had "stolen" it's first place

[cooler2442]

N54 will make more power. N55 will be more reliable on the track. I've tracked my N55 in 110+ degree weather already and my oil has not gone above 260. I have also never experienced limp mode.

[Odog]

Originally Posted by lcrain

I think you will be happy with either in the power department in stock form on the track. Put a tune on either and you will be more than satisfied.

I have a 335i, JB3 and intake now. The power has been fine at the track but not great. I'd like more.

Originally Posted by lcrain

I would save the money on power mods and focus on setting up the chassis to handle better and put the power down. M3 bits + D/A coils + sways + limited slip diff + install will cost you a small fortune (6-8k unless you can do it all yourself). Then you have the issue of fitting bigger tires. I know some have fit a 255/275 combo but that will take a lot of fender work and camber to achieve.

This is the plan. I'm thinking I can pick up the car for around $30k and put 8-12k into it and sell it in 2 years.

Originally Posted by lcrain

What is your goal on the track?

I want to be able to push the car around a bit. I don't need a "peak HP number," but I didn't like it when a friend's tuned S4 came off a turn and easily passed me on the straight either.

Originally Posted by lcrain

So to me it comes down to DCT vs. 6mt...I have read mixed reviews on the DCT put in the 135s too. The only DCT I have driven is out of the M3 and it was phenomenal. That said, I think a lightening fast shifting transmission is better suited to the high revving v8 in the M3.

At the track I really want both hands on the wheel. That's why I really like the idea of the DCT. While I also love the M3 DCT on the tract, I haven't experienced a 135 DCT there. I figured they were the same, but haven't researched yet. I'll be really bummed if they are different.

[Odog]

Originally Posted by Odog

I'm thinking I can pick up the car for around $30k and put 8-12k into it and sell it in 2 years.

Update: just found out that the Quaife LSD for a 135 DCT is about $7k (compared to about $1,500 for the N54 AT) http://www.1addicts.com/forums/image...nfused0068.gif

Well that kinda changes things...

[lcrain]

Originally Posted by Odog

I have a 335i, JB3 and intake now. The power has been fine at the track but not great. I'd like more.

This is the plan. I'm thinking I can pick up the car for around $30k and put 8-12k into it and sell it in 2 years.

I want to be able to push the car around a bit. I don't need a "peak HP number," but I didn't like it when a friend's tuned S4 came off a turn and easily passed me on the straight either.

At the track I really want both hands on the wheel. That's why I really like the idea of the DCT. While I also love the M3 DCT on the tract, I haven't experienced a 135 DCT there. I figured they were the same, but haven't researched yet. I'll be really bummed if they are different.

I see e93 by your screen name. Do you drive an e93 335? If so that is part of the problem. You have a ton of extra weight with the retractable roof. The s4s are pretty darn heavy too. A 135 will feel substantially smaller/lighter/more solid than a convertible.

If you get a 135 with the aforementioned suspension/chassis modifications + light weight wheels with stickier tires would be a good place to start. Again, weight will trump power on the track. When you start to go after power mods (sounds like this is inevitable) I would start with exhaust/down pipe as that will remove the most weight, while giving a nice power bump. I am not all that familiar with the exhaust setups for 135s. But lighter generally = louder so be prepared for that.

When you decide you want more power I would try to get a custom dyno tune through cobb or evolve. The JB3 is like 3-4 years old if my memory serves me correctly. I really feel that N54 tuning has come a long way since then both in terms of power and linear curves (if that's what you are after). Maybe I am wrong and you want the most power.

But I really think ~350-370whp will be plenty in such a small package. I doubt many S4s will be able to keep up with that. You really should dominate the S4 in the curves too, that is where less weight really pays off. What year S4 are we talking about? The B8s are pigs but can be modified to have similar power to a modded n54. If it is a B6/7 you should stomp most all the time. B5s can be tricky as some of those guys are pushing huge power and it is a smaller package. AWD makes them easier to drive at the limit, but inadequate if you are a good driver. Really though I think a ~3200lbs 135 with suspension/chassis mods discussed + ~350 whp and a competent driver should be a very fast car on most tracks.

[smw356]

Originally Posted by Odog

Update: just found out that the Quaife LSD for a 135 DCT is about $7k (compared to about $1,500 for the N54 AT) http://www.1addicts.com/forums/image...nfused0068.gif

Well that kinda changes things...

I'd shop around a little more, HPA has full final drive units for the DCT for under $5k.

[1speedbike]

I posted this years ago but it seems relevant to this thread:

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

I posted something similar in another thread recently but..



ZF tranny shifts around or under 200 ms (on downshifts, upshifts are faster) consistently

fastest manual shifter got 260 ms inconsistently

average manual shift time is 500 ms

first generation smg transmission shifts at 220 ms

dct shift times VARY from 30 ms to 200 ms http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165773

The fact is that both the step and the dct shift faster than humans can even perceive. The dct shifts faster sure, but any difference anyone thinks they are feeling is placebo. You really CAN'T reliably tell a 1/5 second difference.

Also, the N55 is capped on power. It's not about taking more time for more research, unless you're talking about auxiliary mods. Without replacing the turbo, power is capped according to Terry burger's testing. No, he's not the be all end all of BMW tuning, but he was one of (if not THE) first, to start tuning our engines (n54/n55) and he knows what he is talking about. Fuel delivery limits both engines, even with bigger turbos... But once a N55 turbo replacement comes out we will see what happens. With stock turbos and only with bolt ons, the N55 is more limited unless you're pushing the turbo to dangerous levels. But even getting to those limits is really enough for a car like this anyway... Unless you're the stig or something lol.

[bryce]

get a n54 with a manual transmission. DCT is still an auto. real men don't drive auto's

[cooler2442]

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

I posted this years ago but it seems relevant to this thread:



The fact is that both the step and the dct shift faster than humans can even perceive. The dct shifts faster sure, but any difference anyone thinks they are feeling is placebo. You really CAN'T reliably tell a 1/5 second difference.

Also, the N55 is capped on power. It's not about taking more time for more research, unless you're talking about auxiliary mods. Without replacing the turbo, power is capped according to Terry burger's testing. No, he's not the be all end all of BMW tuning, but he was one of (if not THE) first, to start tuning our engines (n54/n55) and he knows what he is talking about. Fuel delivery limits both engines, even with bigger turbos... But once a N55 turbo replacement comes out we will see what happens. With stock turbos and only with bolt ons, the N55 is more limited unless you're pushing the turbo to dangerous levels. But even getting to those limits is really enough for a car like this anyway... Unless you're the stig or something lol.

I've had a friend sitting passenger with me that has the N54 Auto and he commented on how fast I was down shifting the DCT. I think it really plays a bigger factor on down shifts if its 1/5 second each shift then multiple ones really will make you feel it. So if your on the track on a long straight away you will easily be in 4/5th, but then when you get to that big corner you will want to down shift to 2nd/3rd which using the DCT will make a noticeable difference over regular step auto.

But honestly I'm torn between it. I do wish that I had the N54 to make alot more power since I'm running meth but then I also don't wish I had the N54 since it has more issues and requires more dealer visits.

[John Dempsey]

Originally Posted by cooler2442

I've had a friend sitting passenger with me that has the N54 Auto and he commented on how fast I was down shifting the DCT. I think it really plays a bigger factor on down shifts if its 1/5 second each shift then multiple ones really will make you feel it. So if your on the track on a long straight away you will easily be in 4/5th, but then when you get to that big corner you will want to down shift to 2nd/3rd which using the DCT will make a noticeable difference over regular step auto.

But honestly I'm torn between it. I do wish that I had the N54 to make alot more power since I'm running meth but then I also don't wish I had the N54 since it has more issues and requires more dealer visits.

The speed of a downshift doesnt matter, and on a track using downshifting to slow you down is like using a screwdriver to put in a nail, its not the right tool for the job. Downshifting is to be in the right gear therefore the right rpm on exit to a corner. So as long as your downshifts are smooth and you are properly blipping the throttle, that speed wont really matter.

[1speedbike]

Originally Posted by cooler2442

I've had a friend sitting passenger with me that has the N54 Auto and he commented on how fast I was down shifting the DCT. I think it really plays a bigger factor on down shifts if its 1/5 second each shift then multiple ones really will make you feel it. So if your on the track on a long straight away you will easily be in 4/5th, but then when you get to that big corner you will want to down shift to 2nd/3rd which using the DCT will make a noticeable difference over regular step auto.

But honestly I'm torn between it. I do wish that I had the N54 to make alot more power since I'm running meth but then I also don't wish I had the N54 since it has more issues and requires more dealer visits.

Well, honestly on the track that 1/5 can make a difference. Also, I think the step is much more prone to getting "lazy" and needing a transmission reset. Plus, the extra gear and launch control are big pluses. But for day to day, regular driving, I don't think there's a bit difference.

N55 and dct definitely have benefits. Day to day and when not tuned to the limit they are really the same. These are all really nit picks

The N55 seems a bit more reliable, stays cooler based on what I see in the above posts, seems more efficient, and has lower emissions.

[NY135ivishnu]

Want to buy my n54 mt 09 alpine white 135 m package plus procede?

[pharmdphd98]

Originally Posted by Tech112

If you stay with the 3er you can get a 335is which has an N54 and DCT as well as other goodies.

I agree. On top of that the 335 chassis is more stable at speed and more confidence-inspiring than the short wheel-based 135i. N54 is the engine to have if you want max power (that's why 1M and 335is have this engine and why the N54 won another International Engine of the Year Award in its class while the N55 came in 5th) and DCT is the tranny to have for the track. 335is is the car you will be most happy with.