Alignment specs - need advice

[ajshanny]

On Friday, RRT installed Koni Sport shocks with Eibach Pro Kit springs and then took it to a nearby alignment shop to get the wheels aligned. The Beissbarth alignment printout indicates that the vehicle was a 2004 E87 with active steering, but the car is an E82 without active steering. My guess is that the alignment software hadn't been updated with the E82 data yet. Anyone know whether this should be an issue? Since I picked up the car after hours on Friday night, I haven't had a chance to ask the guys at RRT about it yet, but I was planning to take it for a spirited drive tomorrow. Just want to make sure that I'm not going to have handling problems or do any damage to the car. I also wanted to know whether I'm going to need to get the car re-aligned later.

Thanks.

[mikeo]

Does the printout show the specs of the completed alignment? If so please post them to help us answer.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Does the printout show the specs of the completed alignment? If so please post them to help us answer.

Rear Axle Final Specs:

Camber Left: -1.86
Camber Right: -1.89

Individual Toe Left: +0.16
Individual Toe Right: +0.15

Setback: +0.31
Geometrical driving axis: -0.01

Front Axle Final Specs:

Castor 10 Left: +7.03
Castor 10 Right: +6.57

KPI 10: (final measurement blank)

Camber Left: -0.62
Camber Right: -0.85

Cross Camber: +0.23

Individual Toe Left: +0.13
Individual Toe Right: +0.13

Included Angle 10: (final measurement blank)

Ride Height Rear Axle (Measurement Data): +585mm (left and right)

Ride Height Front Axle (Measurement Data): +607mm (left and right)

[mikeo]

You are good to go with those specs. I like my rear camber a little less (I'm at -1.55) but your setting is OK. Have you removed the adjustment pins from the top of the front strut tower? I'd guess not--it will give a fraction more negative camber which will be better for understeer.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

You are good to go with those specs. I like my rear camber a little less (I'm at -1.55) but your setting is OK. Have you removed the adjustment pins from the top of the front strut tower? I'd guess not--it will give a fraction more negative camber which will be better for understeer.

I haven't looked under the hood yet. Where are the adjustment pins located?

When you say that I'm good to go, are you saying that the E87 specs are basically the same as the E82 specs, or that the E87 specs are in a tolerable range?

Btw, the car seems to be running really low to the ground and I'm a bit concerned that I will pick up debris or scrape something while driving. Is there a measurement that I can take that would tell me whether the ride height is set at an acceptable level in the front and the rear? This is the first car that I have had lowered, so I really don't know what I'm looking for.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by ajshanny

I haven't looked under the hood yet. Where are the adjustment pins located?

When you say that I'm good to go, are you saying that the E87 specs are basically the same as the E82 specs, or that the E87 specs are in a tolerable range?

Btw, the car seems to be running really low to the ground and I'm a bit concerned that I will pick up debris or scrape something while driving. Is there a measurement that I can take that would tell me whether the ride height is set at an acceptable level in the front and the rear? This is the first car that I have had lowered, so I really don't know what I'm looking for.

This should help locating the alignment pins. I don't know what the E87 specs are but the alignment on your car is within E82 specs. The suspension setup you had installed, Konis with Eibach springs, is not adjustable for height like the more expensive coilover setups. It is what it is, and should help the handling characteristics a lot.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

This should help locating the alignment pins. I don't know what the E87 specs are but the alignment on your car is within E82 specs. The suspension setup you had installed, Konis with Eibach springs, is not adjustable for height like the more expensive coilover setups. It is what it is, and should help the handling characteristics a lot.

Yeah, I knew when I bought the shocks that they didn't have threaded adjusters, so the ride height wouldn't be adjustable, but the ride height just seems really low when I'm looking at it, so I'm thinking about putting the stock springs back on with the Koni shocks. I'm still haven't driven the car on a twisty road yet since I upgraded the suspension and end up liking the way the car has been set up, but I think I just need to get used to driving around in a lowered car.

Has anyone discussed the set-up that I'm running - I haven't seen any posts from anyone running the Eibach pro springs with the Koni Sports. Seems like the Eibachs might lower the car a bit more than the H&R OE springs do, but I'm not sure if the handling is any better or worse with this combo.

[mikeo]

I seem to recall at least one other member with Eibach springs, but forget who. I think it will take a week or so for you to get used to the height--it always seemed really low in the past when I lowered a car but after a month or so I was used to it. Of course, you need to be mindfull of entering driveways, speed bumps, and parking curbs or damage could result. The Eibachs are a little lower than H&R OE Sport springs, but not as low as the H&R Sport. The handling should be very similar.

As an alternative to replacing them with the OE springs you might try thicker spring pads, not sure if they are available for the E82 but BMW usually has one or two different thickness pads for their cars. Try realoem.com to look for the spring pads or contact Dan@UnitedBMW, a member here.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

I seem to recall at least one other member with Eibach springs, but forget who. I think it will take a week or so for you to get used to the height--it always seemed really low in the past when I lowered a car but after a month or so I was used to it. Of course, you need to be mindfull of entering driveways, speed bumps, and parking curbs or damage could result. The Eibachs are a little lower than H&R OE Sport springs, but not as low as the H&R Sport. The handling should be very similar.

As an alternative to replacing them with the OE springs you might try thicker spring pads, not sure if they are available for the E82 but BMW usually has one or two different thickness pads for their cars. Try realoem.com to look for the spring pads or contact Dan@UnitedBMW, a member here.

Thanks for the info Mikeo. Are you suggesting the thicker spring pads because they would lift the car less than re-installing the stock springs, or do you think the Eibachs are stiffer than the stock springs and that will therefore help with the handling?

I ran a search and found one guy who installed the Eibach Pro Kit springs, but he went with Koni FSDs, not Koni Sports, and I don't think he mentioned how the car handled after the install. In any case, I'll just give the car a spin tomorrow, which should tell me how well the new set up works. Btw, where did you get the E82 alignment specs - do you have an E82 shop manual?

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by ajshanny

Thanks for the info Mikeo. Are you suggesting the thicker spring pads because they would lift the car less than re-installing the stock springs, or do you think the Eibachs are stiffer than the stock springs and that will therefore help with the handling?

I ran a search and found one guy who installed the Eibach Pro Kit springs, but he went with Koni FSDs, not Koni Sports, and I don't think he mentioned how the car handled after the install. In any case, I'll just give the car a spin tomorrow, which should tell me how well the new set up works. Btw, where did you get the E82 alignment specs - do you have an E82 shop manual?

The Eibachs are somewhat stiffer than the OE springs and usually a little less spring rate than H&R springs--somewhere in between OE and H&R. Although I don't know the actual spring rates of the E82 Eibachs, I'm just going from spring comparisons on other BMW models (E36, E46). Spring pads are a method of slightly changing ride height on non-coilover suspensions--they usually don't change handling. If spring pads are available for the E82 the height change would likely be in the range of 5 - 7mm, definitely less than going back to OE springs.

I don't have a manual with alignment specs. Early on I had my BMW dealer remove the alignment pins and do a performance alignment (I autocross), so I had the printout with the BMW E82 range of alignment specs.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The Eibachs are somewhat stiffer than the OE springs and usually a little less spring rate than H&R springs--somewhere in between OE and H&R. Although I don't know the actual spring rates of the E82 Eibachs, I'm just going from spring comparisons on other BMW models (E36, E46). Spring pads are a method of slightly changing ride height on non-coilover suspensions--they usually don't change handling. If spring pads are available for the E82 the height change would likely be in the range of 5 - 7mm, definitely less than going back to OE springs.

I don't have a manual with alignment specs. Early on I had my BMW dealer remove the alignment pins and do a performance alignment (I autocross), so I had the printout with the BMW E82 range of alignment specs.

Well, I took the car for a long drive this morning on a route that had a variety of road surfaces and I'm really disappointed with the performance of the new suspension. Body roll has been minimized somewhat, and the pogo effect is less pronounced, but the ride is extremely harsh - way to harsh for everyday street driving in my opinion. I chose the Koni/Eibach combo because I thought it would be more compliant than the other combos that are available, but this theory doesn't seem to be accurate. I don't know if it's because of the springs or because of the shocks. I have the front shocks set of full soft and the rears at about half-way. Can't change the setting on the rears without removing the shocks, but I think it's the fronts that are causing the harshness anyway. The car is also very skittish over bumps and seems to have lost some grip.

I should have gone with my initial instinct, which was to install the BMW performance suspension. BMW has probably worked out all of the settings for the street and there have been some positive posts on this site regarding the BMW setup.

[mikeo]

The rears are too firm at 1/2 way, assuming you mean one full turn (360 deg.) of the 720 deg. adjustment range. Take them off and set them to full soft and recheck the ride quality.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

The rears are too firm at 1/2 way, assuming you mean one full turn (360 deg.) of the 720 deg. adjustment range. Take them off and set them to full soft and recheck the ride quality.

RRT said they set the rears at a bit more than one turn, but I'm noticing the harshness more in the front than the rear. In any case, since I don't have the equipment or time to mess with adjusting the rears myself, I would need to spend more money to have the rears adjusted. Although that may help, if it doesn't I will end up needing to spend even more to have a different setup installed or to reinstall the stock components.

[mikeo]

True. You may want to try the Konis with the OE springs--I've thought about it.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

True. You may want to try the Konis with the OE springs--I've thought about it.

I've thought about that option myself, as I'm not sure whether the springs or the shocks are causing the harshness. If I knew that the springs were causing the problem, I would go ahead do it, but I don't want to spend the money (on labor) to experiment.

[Noize]

Hey, I'm not trying to come off harsh at all, but I think you should pull those stupid Eibach pro kit springs. IMO, those are good for little more than a slammed ricer look, and they destroy the balance of a street car. In a car that has to drive on public roads, you need suspension travel, and you won't have any with those Eibachs.

IMO, the Konis should be wonderful. Pull the adjustment pins, put the stock springs back on, and take the car to a performance shop that does alignments on performance cars. Tell them what you will be using the car for, how much daily driving vs. how much track use, and get a good, but mild alignment (not crazy, but not the Mickey Mouse settings in the manual). Set right, you can dial out a ton of understeer in these cars. If that's not enough, you could look into swaybars.

Even with coilovers, I don't like much of a drop. I like having some suspension travel. At least you didn't do the Eibachs on stock shocks and expect a handling miracle. Then you'd have a car that handles worse than stock AND rides like a hog wagon.

I wish you the best. You have all the right ingredients, you just need to mix 'em a little better. Good luck!

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by Alpinweiß

Hey, I'm not trying to come off harsh at all, but I think you should pull those stupid Eibach pro kit springs. IMO, those are good for little more than a slammed ricer look, and they destroy the balance of a street car. In a car that has to drive on public roads, you need suspension travel, and you won't have any with those Eibachs.

IMO, the Konis should be wonderful. Pull the adjustment pins, put the stock springs back on, and take the car to a performance shop that does alignments on performance cars. Tell them what you will be using the car for, how much daily driving vs. how much track use, and get a good, but mild alignment (not crazy, but not the Mickey Mouse settings in the manual). Set right, you can dial out a ton of understeer in these cars. If that's not enough, you could look into swaybars.

Even with coilovers, I don't like much of a drop. I like having some suspension travel. At least you didn't do the Eibachs on stock shocks and expect a handling miracle. Then you'd have a car that handles worse than stock AND rides like a hog wagon.

I wish you the best. You have all the right ingredients, you just need to mix 'em a little better. Good luck!

Thanks for the suggestion. I may try that.

[mikeo]

Can you take a side pic of the car and post it here, aj? I'd like to see exactly how much drop we are talking about.

[ajshanny]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Can you take a side pic of the car and post it here, aj? I'd like to see exactly how much drop we are talking about.

I'll do that, but probably won't be able to get to it until the weekend.

[ocinek]

Thanks for the review; I was considering the standard shock/spring setup for around ~$1000 but I will fork over another 200-300 so I can get KW v1 or H&R coilovers

[BerkTechnology]

Pull some camber out of the rears to get some toe in. .2-.4 shoudl do it.

[turbobum]

Will "adding" more negative camber in the front and adding positive camber in the rear (to help aliviate understear) cause uneven tire wear?