RFT vs. non-RFT steering feel

[MotoWPK]

I've studying the options to change out the OEM Goodyear Eagle LS2 RFT's on my '13 128 vert. My reasons for changing have nothing to do with handling, comfort or noise, all of which I find quite good with these tires. Instead, for me, the situations where RFT's may provide some advantage over non-RFT's don't out weigh their greater cost or, mostly, poorer availability.

I want to stick with all seasons. While their snow performance is limited, a more common situation I deal with here in CO is cold weather for which I think summer performance tires would not be well suited, even without snow on the roads.

Searching here, on other forums and Tire Rack, it seems as if the most highly rated tires are Michelin A/S or A/S 3 and Conti DWS (now being replaced by the DWS 06). So far so good...except I keep seeing some comments describing a loss of steering feel/precision with any of these compared to RFT's.

I use a fraction of the performance capability of my vehicle, I might describe my usual driving style as 'spirited light', and value comfort (especially low noise) almost as much as performance, but one of my favorite aspects of driving my 128 is the steering feel; the precision of turn in and the self centering action. I've noticed some posts by those who switched from RFT's to one of the above tires commenting on these qualities being lost to some degree, some comments even complaining of a 'rubbery' feeling to the steering after the switch.

Would appreciate feedback from those who have made the switch, specifically with regard to how steering feel has been affected. Thanks in advance for your help.

[bmw1racer]

I replaced my stock Goodyear NCT5 RFTs with Bridgestone RE760 Sport non-RFTs and there is a softer steering feel because of the non-RFTs softer sidewalls. It was more noticeable at the beginning, but after several months, I've adjusted to them.

I know others in other threads have suggested various suspension changes to compensate/accommodate the non-RFTs, but I don't track my car, so I didn't bother.

[aloksatoor]

Switched from the dunlops to the michelin pss did not notice much of a difference in steering feel. I do run a bit higher pressures than on the door jamb. 39 front and 41 rear.

[Vigilante375]

The reason why I changed was because of driving on the Interstate the car would move around in the grooves in the pavement. Plus the handling was pretty soft IMO. I have the Michelin All Seasons and do not regret going away from those run craps. 1500 or so miles on them and that was all it took for me to swap them out.

All my life I've driven with non-run flats so the steering feel and the way they rode was very noticeable to me. I dont track the car but do drive a bit spirited every so often. The daily driving comfort was the reason why I wanted to change. I just hated the feeling of moving around in the tire grooves on the Interstate and trying to change lanes while going through them.

[five_timer]

People may be experiencing softer handling with non runflats, but the issue is more complex than RFT or non-RFT. While RFTs have necessarily very stiff sidewalls, they aren't specifically designed for performance. There's more to a performance tire than just a stiff sidewall.

If one were to design a tire specifically for performance, and not for the dual role of performance RFT, one can make a better performance tire. I replaced the OEM Conti RFTs with Eagle F1s, and responsiveness is definitely sharper, while ride quality and bump compliance is greatly improved.

So I think that overall, you can get a variety of handling qualities with a non-runflat, depending on what you get.

[lowbudgethero]

RFTS have great feel dude to riding on boulders, but mid corner grip and feel lacks. Conventional summer tires have much better grip when the suspension is loaded up, but lose a bit of the instant turn in feel.

[Pissoff]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

RFTS have great feel dude to riding on boulders, but mid corner grip and feel lacks. Conventional summer tires have much better grip when the suspension is loaded up, but lose a bit of the instant turn in feel.

+1 well said

[3liter1]

I've had the Good Year Eagle LS2 on my 128i and other cars. They are not very good from many standpoints. Any highly rated tire from The Rack should work. I would go with the Michelins as I just have good results with that brand (long life, great performance) I have the AS3 on my Volvo wagon and they have great feel and very quite too. I put summer performance tires on the 128i , but it sounds you are not looking to go that route at all.

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by 3liter1

I've had the Good Year Eagle LS2 on my 128i and other cars. They are not very good from many standpoints. Any highly rated tire from The Rack should work. I would go with the Michelins as I just have good results with that brand (long life, great performance) I have the AS3 on my Volvo wagon and they have great feel and very quite too. I put summer performance tires on the 128i , but it sounds you are not looking to go that route at all.

3liter1, and everyone else, thanks very much for the feedback, it's quite helpful.

I drive, at most, at 6/10 or maybe 7/10 of the 128's capability (which is reasonably high), so while ultimate tire performance is important for some, I'm not near the limit of any of the high quality tires under consideration.

As mentioned, comfort by way of low noise and ride is important to me. One of my favorite characteristics of the 128 is its steering - it is nothing less than the best steering of any vehicle I've owned (well, at least within the last 20 years or so - can't remember further back than that). The way the steering loads up off center and its precision is a delight. A lot of that is due to the way BMW designed and manufactured the vehicle, but it is dependent to some degree on the tires. Among the differing considerations in choosing a tire, I don't want to lose the delightful steering feel. So much so that I'd replace the current Goodyear Eagle LS2's with the same thing to be confident in retaining that steering feel, even though I know non-RFT's will come with some advantages.

The feedback is very useful and any additional thoughts will be very much appreciated as well.

[3liter1]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

3liter1, and everyone else, thanks very much for the feedback, it's quite helpful.

I drive, at most, at 6/10 or maybe 7/10 of the 128's capability (which is reasonably high), so while ultimate tire performance is important for some, I'm not near the limit of any of the high quality tires under consideration.

As mentioned, comfort by way of low noise and ride is important to me. One of my favorite characteristics of the 128 is its steering - it is nothing less than the best steering of any vehicle I've owned (well, at least within the last 20 years or so - can't remember further back than that). The way the steering loads up off center and its precision is a delight. A lot of that is due to the way BMW designed and manufactured the vehicle, but it is dependent to some degree on the tires. Among the differing considerations in choosing a tire, I don't want to lose the delightful steering feel. So much so that I'd replace the current Goodyear Eagle LS2's with the same thing to be confident in retaining that steering feel, even though I know non-RFT's will come with some advantages.

The feedback is very useful and any additional thoughts will be very much appreciated as well.

If you have the space, do consider getting a used set of winter wheels and tires from another forum member. I've done at least four sets like this over the years. Typically I've paid about $500 for a full set of wheels and tires with one or two winters life still remaining. Much cheaper than a new set. Then look for summer performance tires with a high tread life rating. You will enjoy them even at 6-7/10ths; they have better bite on initial turn-in. I have Bridgestone 760 sports non run flat on my 128i with a stock suspension and am very happy.

[drunkenup]

Depends on the tire, just cause its non-RFT doesn't mean lesser steering feel. The OEM RE050a RFTs didn't any different than the Hankook V12s I had up front. But the Michelin PSS' I have on now load up quicker and heavier on the steering than either.

[RoundelM3]

4 months after taking delivery of wife's 2011 128i MSport 6MT, which came with 17" RFTs, I replaced them with 18" Alufelgen CS7s and Continental Extreme Contact DW non-RFTs. Haven't looked back since - on 2nd set of DWs now. Better ride and handling, lower cost, better treadwear. What's not to like? I also ditched the Conti runflats on my 2013 F30 335i MSport for the same reason after 14K miles.

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by 3liter1

If you have the space, do consider getting a used set of winter wheels and tires from another forum member...Then look for summer performance tires with a high tread life rating. You will enjoy them even at 6-7/10ths; they have better bite on initial turn-in. I have Bridgestone 760 sports non run flat on my 128i with a stock suspension and am very happy.

I've considered this route but am concerned summer tires would be limited to too small a portion of the year here in Colorado (at 8400', by the way). It's not just snow, but low temps. Information I find on summer tires talks about them beginning to lose significant performance when the temperature falls below 40-45 degrees; e.g. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=273. Well before snow season really starts and well after it stops, it's common to encounter temperatures well below 40-45 degrees here.

Not sure how other Rocky Mountain drivers have approached this, but it just seems to me that I need to stick to all-seasons to avoid having to drive an excessive part of the year on snow tires.

[Pissoff]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

I've considered this route but am concerned summer tires would be limited to too small a portion of the year here in Colorado (at 8400', by the way). It's not just snow, but low temps. Information I find on summer tires talks about them beginning to lose significant performance when the temperature falls below 40-45 degrees; e.g. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=273. Well before snow season really starts and well after it stops, it's common to encounter temperatures well below 40-45 degrees here.

Not sure how other Rocky Mountain drivers have approached this, but it just seems to me that I need to stick to all-seasons to avoid having to drive an excessive part of the year on snow tires.

Your right in your area it doesn't make sense. Summer tires should not be used below 45 deg. Michelin pilot sport as3's would be a better fit in your area. Then winter tires when it is snow season. Just my thoughts.

[lowbudgethero]

+1 on the AS3s are a good tire, nice feel and grip imo. GF has them on her car.

[MightyMouseTech]

I have them on mine. Surprisingly grippy and stable. Noisy though.

[Tuxedo]

I replaced my tires 3mo ago with RFT. Mainly if a problem happened while mrs Tux drove it I'd never hear the end of. Bridgestone DriveGuard they have a good luxury touring feel and 60k warranty tons better then ContiProContact. No track or mods but in the next year will upgrade the bushings, of note my e88 has style360 16" wheels most don't.

[TheCaptain]

All season tires are going to be horrible going uphill in the snow. First inch on the ground and you'll be shopping for winter tires.

[MotoWPK]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I have them on mine. Surprisingly grippy and stable. Noisy though.

About to order new tires and have just about concluded to go with Michelin AS3's, mostly from what I read about their handling characteristics (and having been pleased with Michelins before).

Am concerned about the comment regarding the AS3's being noisy - is that compared to tires in general or to RFT's you previously had on your 135i (and, if so, what were they?).

Would appreciate others' comments comparing AS3 noise compared to the RFT's they originally had on their 1's.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by MotoWPK

About to order new tires and have just about concluded to go with Michelin AS3's, mostly from what I read about their handling characteristics (and having been pleased with Michelins before).

Am concerned about the comment regarding the AS3's being noisy - is that compared to tires in general or to RFT's you previously had on your 135i (and, if so, what were they?).

Would appreciate others' comments comparing AS3 noise compared to the RFT's they originally had on their 1's.

I have the AS3's on my 128i. I do not consider them noisy. At highway speeds they have a bit of a "hum" to them, but not any louder than my original RFTs.

Mine are 17" though, not 18", so that could be why there is a difference between mine and MMT's.

[MightyMouseTech]

Well, they are louder than the OE RFT's, and louder than even my Hakka winter tires. Wife even commented on it after I took the winters off.

Also noticed it on a couple customer TL's that we installed them on. Really depends on how sensitive you are to it though.

Will be installing MPSS this week or next, so will be able to make that comparison.

[prcsa77]

Just my 2 cents...I felt the DWS's had better bite in the white stuff than the AS3's. The AS3's were better handling dry, wet, cold dry and wet temps, and light snow. That being said, I have switched to MPSS in the summer and PP4's in the winter. My 135 is a DD with 15K - 20K miles driven a year. Sometimes it's a gamble (and I have lost), but there is no equal to dedicated snow tires. During winter I do quite a bit of driving in the Rockies as my GF and I love to snowshoe. As a previous poster said, based on location, maybe all seasons until the white stuff sticks and switch to snows. YMMV
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