DCT: Would it have changed your mind?

b33g33 · 10-29-2011, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnm

I think all of you people saying you would not have bought it if it came with a Dual Clutch Transmission need to either:

1- get off your high horses
2- stop being so snob
3- drive a dual clutch transmission car (and no a DCT is NOT an single clutch automated manual (SMG), NOR a torque converter automatic gearbox)

I think I will stay on my high horse, thank you. Obvious, juvenile lists don't really make your argument any more convincing.

The OP asked if we would have bought the 1M if it only came with DCT.

It appears that the majority prefer the tactility and involvement of a manual.

Deal with it. There is no effing automatic.

Yeah, I said automatic.

jnm · 10-29-2011, 04:18 PM

Uh I think you're missing the point of my post (given your reaction):

I'm personally very happy to have it with a manual, completely fine with the fact that is only comes with a manual AND say that a manual is more fun/enjoyable (i.e. I still prefer manual over DCT for the intended use of the car).

BUT I would also be fine if it came with both and I would have still bought it if it only came with a DCT.

Now my opinion (and it's only my humble opinion, you are certainly entitled to your own as well) is that saying 'DCT would have been a deal-breaker for me' is snobish and near-sighted and that the other qualities of the car (and the fact that DCT while not being a manual is the closest thing you can get to a manual and actually faster than any manual) certainly outweigh the difference between Manual/DCT gearboxes.

Don't get me wrong, I hate torque converters (and slow/jerky SMGs) as much as any of you and the 1M coming with only a torque converter or SMG would probably have been much more of a deal breaker for me, but DCT is a different thing.

Anyways this is a silly thread that was going to of course get these kinds of reactions, i should have known better than try to get in that argument (once I finally have the darn car I'll go drive it rather than spend time reading these forums). And in the end the move of sports and luxury cars to DCT is unavoidable simply because its faster and smoother.

And then what will you people do? Refuse to buy new cars?

Now if someone could explain to me what is juvenile about a list, I'd greatly appreciate!

GeeRam · 10-29-2011, 04:58 PM

The reason I DIDN'T buy a 1M was because it didn't have DCT.

1SerieStud · 10-29-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeRam

The reason I DIDN'T buy a 1M was because it didn't have DCT.

Reading this makes me so happy...glad one of these amazing machines didn't end up in the wrong hands!!

Dee Pee · 10-29-2011, 05:36 PM

I prefer MT.

Nothing like getting some time alone and wrapping your right hand around something thick and giving it a pull...

Ok...c'mon...I was trying to throw some humor into this thread!

Seriously, I've driven DCT and MT cars and it just boils down to the "fun-factor" for me as a casual driver. I wouldn't object to DCT on the 1M, but I wouldn't have gotten it. I sure would like to see how it performed on a track with DCT.

Pete_vB · 10-29-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnm

when set in manual with the paddle shifters you're just as in control of which gear you want to be in as with a manual.

Anyone that thinks otherwise just needs to drive a car with a proper DCT. Period.

As the owner of a car with a DCT I'm going to contradict you on this point.

The DCT does introduce uncertainty in some situations that mean you have less control. Two examples:

First: Normally you hit the DCT paddle and you get a nearly instant shift. Sometimes, however, you get a delay. The reason is simple. The DCT has two gears active at any given time- the one you are in, and then it pre-selects the next gear you are going to. That's why it can shift with lightning speed- it's not actually shifting, just putting one clutch in and taking the other out. Great, but what if it guesses which gear you want next wrong? It has pre-selected the wrong gear, and now it needs to shift, which takes time, so suddenly you press the paddle and nothing happens. That hesitance, or lack of control, is a serious issue if you're expecting to be able to balance the car with power and suddenly can't.

Second: Electronics take over in some situations, such as low speed maneuvers, and the DCT is thinks you're doing one thing while you're actually doing another. As an example I was doing a tight hairpin autocross turn, hard on the brakes and downshift to first, jump on the power and... nothing. DCT decided I was going slow in 1st, braking, must be coming to a stop, time to put the clutch in. Oh, you want power? Let me slowly and smoothly let the clutch out... while I'm freewheeling around the corner instead of kicking the tail out.

There are more examples- I can't intentionally mis-match the revs while letting the clutch out to get the tail rotating on corner entry, etc.

So the manual still gives a good driver more control. Yes, the DCT will still usually be faster, but the 1M is more like a Porsche GT3 than a Turbo. A Turbo is an implement for going quickly, mostly on the autobahn, at any time in all conditions. Impressive, fast, but ultimately intentionally less involving- you want to arrive at your business meeting relaxed after two hours at 150 mph, not amped up. The GT3, on the other hand, is the opposite- it's for being involved in and enjoying the ride. And it's only available with a manual, like the 1M. I fully understand why.

jnm · 10-30-2011, 04:46 PM

I don't think we're necessarily in a disagreement here, my point is not that DCT is better than manual, I personally prefer a manual (for a car like a 1M), my point is just that (to go back to the original question in the thread) 'DCT-only' would not be enough to stop me buying a 1M.

I also own a DCT car (for over 5 years now) and indeed if it guesses the wrong gear then the change will take a fraction of a second rather than be immediate but in my experience this only happens on the freeway or in town when you have to deal with others in front of you driving like idiots. In my experience on the open road in manual mode (and I would suspect on track) this does not happen.

Never experienced the 'slow start' you describe but yes I believe you it could happen... once again if you want to get the tires break traction at low speed nothing's going to beat a manual.

Would those things be enough to outright discard the 1M as a choice of car? I still don't think so. Just like the RS3 I got a chance to try briefly on the Autobahn last week which only comes with a DSG (DCT) only: if I was looking at an RS3 the lack of a manual would not stop me.

(now for comparing the RS3 to the 1M, I still have to wait a few weeks until I get my 1M to form a final opinion, but I already have an idea of what it's going to be (and I'm not regretting the fact that I could not buy an RS3 even if I wanted to ... my wife, however is very jealous of me and very sad of the unavailability of the RS3 here

))

Pete_vB · 10-30-2011, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnm

I don't think we're necessarily in a disagreement here, my point is not that DCT is better than manual, I personally prefer a manual (for a car like a 1M), my point is just that (to go back to the original question in the thread) 'DCT-only' would not be enough to stop me buying a 1M.

I also own a DCT car (for over 5 years now) and indeed if it guesses the wrong gear then the change will take a fraction of a second rather than be immediate but in my experience this only happens on the freeway or in town when you have to deal with others in front of you driving like idiots. In my experience on the open road in manual mode (and I would suspect on track) this does not happen.

Never experienced the 'slow start' you describe but yes I believe you it could happen... once again if you want to get the tires break traction at low speed nothing's going to beat a manual.

Would those things be enough to outright discard the 1M as a choice of car? I still don't think so. Just like the RS3 I got a chance to try briefly on the Autobahn last week which only comes with a DSG (DCT) only: if I was looking at an RS3 the lack of a manual would not stop me.

(now for comparing the RS3 to the 1M, I still have to wait a few weeks until I get my 1M to form a final opinion, but I already have an idea of what it's going to be (and I'm not regretting the fact that I could not buy an RS3 even if I wanted to ... my wife, however is very jealous of me and very sad of the unavailability of the RS3 here

))

Yes, I think we're roughly in a agreement. As I said earlier in the thread, I'd still get one if it was DCT only, I'd just be willing to pay less for it. And I might well have bought the RS3 over the 1M if it was available here- real world (as opposed to track) the 4wd is nice to have.

1M Fan · 11-01-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koastal

Why not - would it have made your testicles smaller

No, I just don't buy automatics

M3 Adjuster · 11-01-2011, 10:59 PM

JNM. Perhaps you should wait until you get the 1M before you cry to much over the loss of an s2000 transmission. I have driven an s2000 and owned two others and Hondas have outstanding manual transmissions. The 1M does as well. Since YOU haven't experienced both, it would be wise to reserve judgement.

In addition, it's rather disingenuous to call people names (snobbish etc) and then state your " humble" opinion. You basically jumped in this thread calling anyone that contradicted your opinion idiots for not sharing your opinion. Thanks however, for backing up a few steps in your subsequent posts....

I am happy to hear that you enjoy DCTs.. and yes... they are getting better. I have driven SMG-2, SMG-Drivelogic and now DCT transmissions in BMW M cars.... and no... I would not have compromised and bought a 1M with a DCT.... I bought the 1M because it is the perfect car for me.... I made ZERO compromise, other than my savings account. To to be perfectly honest.... had it come with DCT only I would probably be going into my 18th year of E30 M3 ownership. So... while the manual gearbox may perhaps be dying.... that doesn't mean that DCT is better, just more popular for the great unwashed, the masses that use their car as an appliance more than anything else. Ever listened to a good audio system with Vinyl? Compare it to the same system with a CD player and one won't say that CD sounds better... it simply is more convenient. Slicker packaging.. more durable.. easier to change tracks from your easy chair.... etc.

Pete's analogy with regards to 911 Turbo vs GT3 is spot on.

jnm · 11-04-2011, 11:44 PM

I'm going to let that thread hopefully die once and for all and say that I am am indeed eagerly waiting for my car and dearly hope that the manual will be as good as on my S2000s. That I agree with everyone that the manual is my personal choice over a DCT (I never claimed otherwise) for the way *I* want to drive a 1M and glad that the 1M comes with manual only. I was just a bit ticked off that so many people (with obviously no experience with DCTs because they equate them to regular automatic or SMGs) would discard all of the other qualities of the 1M in the theoretical case it would only come with a DCT. As for the clutch pedal setting into the sunset, that's not a preference of mine, just an observation of a fact...

In the end this thread is just another idle theoretical 'what if...' thread that has no influence over reality and is just a way to pass time until we can actually drive the darn things rather than argue about them on an internet forum!

10-29-2011, 04:18 PM	#68
jnm Second Lieutenant 16 Rep 242 Posts Drives: fast, but could be faster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	Uh I think you're missing the point of my post (given your reaction): I'm personally very happy to have it with a manual, completely fine with the fact that is only comes with a manual AND say that a manual is more fun/enjoyable (i.e. I still prefer manual over DCT for the intended use of the car). BUT I would also be fine if it came with both and I would have still bought it if it only came with a DCT. Now my opinion (and it's only my humble opinion, you are certainly entitled to your own as well) is that saying 'DCT would have been a deal-breaker for me' is snobish and near-sighted and that the other qualities of the car (and the fact that DCT while not being a manual is the closest thing you can get to a manual and actually faster than any manual) certainly outweigh the difference between Manual/DCT gearboxes. Don't get me wrong, I hate torque converters (and slow/jerky SMGs) as much as any of you and the 1M coming with only a torque converter or SMG would probably have been much more of a deal breaker for me, but DCT is a different thing. Anyways this is a silly thread that was going to of course get these kinds of reactions, i should have known better than try to get in that argument (once I finally have the darn car I'll go drive it rather than spend time reading these forums). And in the end the move of sports and luxury cars to DCT is unavoidable simply because its faster and smoother. And then what will you people do? Refuse to buy new cars? Now if someone could explain to me what is juvenile about a list, I'd greatly appreciate!
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10-29-2011, 04:58 PM	#69
GeeRam Major 195 Rep 1,317 Posts Drives: X5 40d SE Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Berkshire,UK iTrader: (0)	The reason I DIDN'T buy a 1M was because it didn't have DCT. __________________ 2017 X5 4.0dSE ~ Atlas Cedar:Ind.Amaro Brown Merino&Piano Blk, Sport Auto, DHP, Comfort seats, Cold weather pack, HK audio, Electric towbar, Sun protection glass.
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10-29-2011, 05:36 PM	#71
Dee Pee Captain 176 Rep 795 Posts Drives: '11 AW 1M, ‘24 718 GTS Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Portland, OR iTrader: (0)	I prefer MT. Nothing like getting some time alone and wrapping your right hand around something thick and giving it a pull... Ok...c'mon...I was trying to throw some humor into this thread! Seriously, I've driven DCT and MT cars and it just boils down to the "fun-factor" for me as a casual driver. I wouldn't object to DCT on the 1M, but I wouldn't have gotten it. I sure would like to see how it performed on a track with DCT.
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10-30-2011, 04:46 PM	#73
jnm Second Lieutenant 16 Rep 242 Posts Drives: fast, but could be faster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	I don't think we're necessarily in a disagreement here, my point is not that DCT is better than manual, I personally prefer a manual (for a car like a 1M), my point is just that (to go back to the original question in the thread) 'DCT-only' would not be enough to stop me buying a 1M. I also own a DCT car (for over 5 years now) and indeed if it guesses the wrong gear then the change will take a fraction of a second rather than be immediate but in my experience this only happens on the freeway or in town when you have to deal with others in front of you driving like idiots. In my experience on the open road in manual mode (and I would suspect on track) this does not happen. Never experienced the 'slow start' you describe but yes I believe you it could happen... once again if you want to get the tires break traction at low speed nothing's going to beat a manual. Would those things be enough to outright discard the 1M as a choice of car? I still don't think so. Just like the RS3 I got a chance to try briefly on the Autobahn last week which only comes with a DSG (DCT) only: if I was looking at an RS3 the lack of a manual would not stop me. (now for comparing the RS3 to the 1M, I still have to wait a few weeks until I get my 1M to form a final opinion, but I already have an idea of what it's going to be (and I'm not regretting the fact that I could not buy an RS3 even if I wanted to ... my wife, however is very jealous of me and very sad of the unavailability of the RS3 here ))
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11-01-2011, 10:59 PM	#76
M3 Adjuster Banned 7906 Rep 11,785 Posts Drives: 1M, X1 M Sport, E46 325ic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx iTrader: (0)	JNM. Perhaps you should wait until you get the 1M before you cry to much over the loss of an s2000 transmission. I have driven an s2000 and owned two others and Hondas have outstanding manual transmissions. The 1M does as well. Since YOU haven't experienced both, it would be wise to reserve judgement. In addition, it's rather disingenuous to call people names (snobbish etc) and then state your " humble" opinion. You basically jumped in this thread calling anyone that contradicted your opinion idiots for not sharing your opinion. Thanks however, for backing up a few steps in your subsequent posts.... I am happy to hear that you enjoy DCTs.. and yes... they are getting better. I have driven SMG-2, SMG-Drivelogic and now DCT transmissions in BMW M cars.... and no... I would not have compromised and bought a 1M with a DCT.... I bought the 1M because it is the perfect car for me.... I made ZERO compromise, other than my savings account. To to be perfectly honest.... had it come with DCT only I would probably be going into my 18th year of E30 M3 ownership. So... while the manual gearbox may perhaps be dying.... that doesn't mean that DCT is better, just more popular for the great unwashed, the masses that use their car as an appliance more than anything else. Ever listened to a good audio system with Vinyl? Compare it to the same system with a CD player and one won't say that CD sounds better... it simply is more convenient. Slicker packaging.. more durable.. easier to change tracks from your easy chair.... etc. Pete's analogy with regards to 911 Turbo vs GT3 is spot on. Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 11-01-2011 at 11:21 PM..
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11-04-2011, 11:44 PM	#77
jnm Second Lieutenant 16 Rep 242 Posts Drives: fast, but could be faster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	I'm going to let that thread hopefully die once and for all and say that I am am indeed eagerly waiting for my car and dearly hope that the manual will be as good as on my S2000s. That I agree with everyone that the manual is my personal choice over a DCT (I never claimed otherwise) for the way I want to drive a 1M and glad that the 1M comes with manual only. I was just a bit ticked off that so many people (with obviously no experience with DCTs because they equate them to regular automatic or SMGs) would discard all of the other qualities of the 1M in the theoretical case it would only come with a DCT. As for the clutch pedal setting into the sunset, that's not a preference of mine, just an observation of a fact... In the end this thread is just another idle theoretical 'what if...' thread that has no influence over reality and is just a way to pass time until we can actually drive the darn things rather than argue about them on an internet forum!
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