Michelin Pilot Super Sport on the track

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by int2str

Technically HPDE's are not timed events.
If I had to *guess* I'd imagine that lap was around 2:07.669...

But again, just guessing here...

Well...

Technically, LIVE TIMING is not allowed. I believe that's the language in the National Operations Manual. Data loggers and video recording equipment was not explicitly prohibited.

Therefore I'm going to interpret that as, while HPDEs are not timed events, timing, for personal use while not on track, is allowed.

And yes, 2:07 (and change) on street tires at Chuckwalla CW is, IMO, pretty damn impressive. And the chunks falling off of the tires proves it.

[davidmoffitt]

I used to get at least 5-6 days if not more on Pilot Sports (granted PS2s) or RE050s (non-runflat). My bet is you were pushing them awfully hard - if you're going to drive THAT hard (based on times), I'd suggest a proper track tire, inconvenient as it is to own multiple wheels, cart them around, change them there, etc etc... Maybe you can luck out and have a friend with a trailer bring them for you?

[Evice]

Originally Posted by int2str

Not the whole session, but quckest lap:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=817396

sorry just now coming back to this...Is there a video with your steering wheel insight?

[JimD]

I went to the BMW Performance Center Wednesday to see the cars run the PC track. We got there before the cars so we had an hour to wander around as they came in before they went on the track. The most popular tire seemed to be Michelins. I am assuming PSS because that is the highest rated in the reviews I've seen. Some had the lettering pretty well worn off but none had chunks missing. We didn't watch all the runs but saw the faster cars (and 1 mini-van) run. I drove this track in M-school and I didn't think all the drivers were pushing real hard. But the leaders certainly were and the leading Nissan had Michelins. The cars all had over 3K miles at this point.

I thus think that Michelin PSS tires can last 3500miles of even hard track use. Because there are a bunch of them that did in the One-lap competition. I guess you also proved that they can come apart earlier if you push them hard enough. I've been on hot-laps, hwoever, on this track where a driving instructor was sliding each turn. The tires still didn't chunk - they just got worn quickly.

Jim

[Groundpilot]

I am bumping this thread to give you my impression of PSS tires.
Just came back from open track event at Thunderbolt. This event is for advanced drivers only, open passing anywere. Lots of racers with race cars who came to practice, and very few street cars including mine.
Its 2011 135i, DCT, m3 bits, stock shocks/springs, vorshlag c.plates with -2.8, zero toe front, -2 rear.
I used to run BFG R1 race tires with the same set up and they were good for 12 track days. They still had plany of rubber left, but lost much of a grip due to cycling out.
When it was time to change them, i decided to step up and got Hoosiers R6. I was shocked how much more grip they had compare to anything else i have experienced before. But i also noticed that my car was understiering a lot more and was pushing a lot. When i looked at my front tires outside edge, i was shocked one more time, they vere almost dead. Almost like OPs pic in this thread. Someone told me that i need at least -3.5 camber for these tires on this car. We cant get more than -2.8 on my car for some reason, so that was the end of Hoosiers for me.
Time to change tires again. This time i decided to go with street tires, as i got tired to carry race tires with me, mount them at the track, remove, put street tires back on, and race tires are very weather dependent.
After searching, talking to track ppl, i finally chose Michelin PSS.
245/35 front, 265/45 rear on Apex 8 wheels.
Track day at Thunderbolt NJ, nice sunny weather, 70F, low humidity, Almost a perfect weather right? Not for PSS.
First session comes, i warm them up for one lap as always and start driving at 10/10 as usual. I immediately noticed a heavy understeer in tight corners and towards the end of my 15 min run i felt tires start to lose traction, sliding around. Going straight to the pits and i see sidewall of my front left tire is heavily damaged, but no chunks coming off. My lap times were down by 6 seconds
I immediately realized that i made another mistake with tires and i cant drive this car with these tires at 10/10th, because the sidewall is too soft and they are rolling over.
The grip was very good for a street tire, but they are not going to last too long with my style of driving.
Front right looked ok, so i put it to the front left, front right to the left and finished the day driving at 6/10th, to save my new tires that are going to be my street tires only. At the end of the day tires looked ok.
I have never been passed so many times in 6 years that i was in one day yeasterday lol. PPL who know me were asking whats wrong
OP, i wish i saw this thread before i got my PSS tires
Sorry for the long story, but hopefully others will read this and avoid the mistake we made.

[Nugget]

Sounds about right, they are good street tyres but overheat and get torn up on the track.

[amigo]

thanks for the post. You just saved me $1,000.00. One of the guys had me talked into this, after I was complaining about changing wheels after my last track day. I use Nitto nt01, guess I'll still be the last guy headed home.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by amigo

thanks for the post. You just saved me $1,000.00. One of the guys had me talked into this, after I was complaining about changing wheels after my last track day. I use Nitto nt01, guess I'll still be the last guy headed home.

If you want to use street tires, there is an option. I am going with new Dunlop Z2. Side walls of these tires are very stiff, much stiffer then any other high performanse street tires. Side walls are reinforced, that is the reason they are so much heavyer than PSS, PS2, or even pilot cups.
I new that before i bought PSS tires, but after reading so many good reviwes about them, and manufacturers claim that side walls are stiffer than PS2 tires, combined with the lighter weight, i decided to give it a shot.

[Nugget]

AD08s are great street tyres that perform on the track. I've daily driven mine for 8 months and about 6 track days and they still have plenty left.

[kchizz]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

I am bumping this thread to give you my impression of PSS tires.
Just came back from open track event at Thunderbolt. This event is for advanced drivers only, open passing anywere. Lots of racers with race cars who came to practice, and very few street cars including mine.
Its 2011 135i, DCT, m3 bits, stock shocks/springs, vorshlag c.plates with -2.8, zero toe front, -2 rear.
I used to run BFG R1 race tires with the same set up and they were good for 12 track days. They still had plany of rubber left, but lost much of a grip due to cycling out.
When it was time to change them, i decided to step up and got Hoosiers R6. I was shocked how much more grip they had compare to anything else i have experienced before. But i also noticed that my car was understiering a lot more and was pushing a lot. When i looked at my front tires outside edge, i was shocked one more time, they vere almost dead. Almost like OPs pic in this thread. Someone told me that i need at least -3.5 camber for these tires on this car. We cant get more than -2.8 on my car for some reason, so that was the end of Hoosiers for me.
Time to change tires again. This time i decided to go with street tires, as i got tired to carry race tires with me, mount them at the track, remove, put street tires back on, and race tires are very weather dependent.
After searching, talking to track ppl, i finally chose Michelin PSS.
245/35 front, 265/45 rear on Apex 8 wheels.
Track day at Thunderbolt NJ, nice sunny weather, 70F, low humidity, Almost a perfect weather right? Not for PSS.
First session comes, i warm them up for one lap as always and start driving at 10/10 as usual. I immediately noticed a heavy understeer in tight corners and towards the end of my 15 min run i felt tires start to lose traction, sliding around. Going straight to the pits and i see sidewall of my front left tire is heavily damaged, but no chunks coming off. My lap times were down by 6 seconds
I immediately realized that i made another mistake with tires and i cant drive this car with these tires at 10/10th, because the sidewall is too soft and they are rolling over.
The grip was very good for a street tire, but they are not going to last too long with my style of driving.
Front right looked ok, so i put it to the front left, front right to the left and finished the day driving at 6/10th, to save my new tires that are going to be my street tires only. At the end of the day tires looked ok.
I have never been passed so many times in 6 years that i was in one day yeasterday lol. PPL who know me were asking whats wrong
OP, i wish i saw this thread before i got my PSS tires
Sorry for the long story, but hopefully others will read this and avoid the mistake we made.

Groundpilot, this is EXACTLY the same experience I had at the track with two week old PSS's as well. Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it to the pit before my front left tire rolled off the rim on a tight down hill right turn (turn #4 at AMP in NovaScotia for those wondering). My symptoms were identical to yours, heavy understeer and sliding. It was like I was on balloons and figured they were running hot but I kept close attention to the pressures and was able to keep them reliably at 38-40 hot all day. I knew something wasn't right and slowed it down considerably but didn't make it to the pit soon enough. This was late in the afternoon the second day of a two day weekend so I could rule out poor installation, I would have noticed that early the first day. I think it just boils down to these tires not being ideal for hard track days. They are great on the street and for me that's where they'll stay. In Canada this tire costs $300

Some pics (because everyone loves pics)...

[pnosker]

What PSI were you guys running?

[kchizz]

Originally Posted by pnosker

What PSI were you guys running?

32 cold that day put me at about 38 hot

[pnosker]

Originally Posted by kchizz

32 cold that day put me at about 38 hot

Ok that makes more sense. I run 42/45 for autocross. The tires don't get too hot, maybe +1 PSI since the runs are so short. I haven't tracked on the PSS but the sidewall is so flimsy that I wouldn't dare run under 42 psi hot.

I was at the Nurburgring in November and the BMW M5 test crew mentioned that they run at 2.8 bar (around 40 psi) all around while on the track.

[IS+1]

My PSS's chunked like the OP's during track use prior to having my M3 control arms and camber plates installed. Now with these mods I am able to get -2.0 degrees camber, which is not great but sufficient to eliminate chunking of the front shoulders. I still get some shoulder wear on the left side but since the PSSs are assymetrical, I just swap left to right halfway through the season.

Since I don't have the option of running a set a dedicated track wheels, I need to find the best tire compromise for combined street/occasional track use that will last me the whole season.

On that note, the PSS - although far from being an ideal track tire - is hard to beat. It has good tread life, excellent wet traction, and great grip both on and off the track.

[Reapur]

Can someone please explain everyone's obsession with Michelin PSS and this car? I come from an s2000 and I've used star specs and now the z2 on my 135. With the performance you get for the price I can't even fathom why anyone would run a different tire.

Wet performance, dry performance, great grip even in the early laps before up to temps.

Z2 should be the go to tire for the street/track 135er...

It costs less and out performs the PSS why wouldn't you?

[jafo1701]

Originally Posted by Reapur

Can someone please explain everyone's obsession with Michelin PSS and this car? I come from an s2000 and I've used star specs and now the z2 on my 135. With the performance you get for the price I can't even fathom why anyone would run a different tire.

Wet performance, dry performance, great grip even in the early laps before up to temps.

Z2 should be the go to tire for the street/track 135er...

It costs less and out performs the PSS why wouldn't you?

Better tread life, quieter on the street, great in the the wet and more then adequate for the novice or low level intermediate driver who only sees a couple track days a year. That being said as soon as my PSSs wear out I'm going with the ZIIs. Since my 135i is not a daily and only sees driving to and from auto x/ track days with the occasional weekend fun run.

[Worra]

Just came here to say nice driving on OP's part in that video!

[Freon]

RE:


That's crazy!

[MMisencik157]

As you've found out the hard way the Pilot Super Sports are not meant for track use. Michelin fluffs up the description of the PSS with some irrelevant information about Michelins race tires used in Le Mans but its just misleading marketing bologna. If you wish to run street tires on track you should only use tires from the EHP category (RE-11A, ZII, AD08R, R-S3, XS... ect.) But even with those tires and a faster driver in a heavier car still needs to manage tire temperatures thorough out a session. Brand new full depth tires run in the summertime (or when its hot) especially need to be taken care of as they can't shed heat as fast.

CVR is a smooth track but is punishing on tires because of the relentless long sweeping corners.

Also for anyone who does more than one or two track events per year, tires from the EHP category will give you longer tread life as well since the PSS will grossly overheat and vaporize with track use.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Reapur

Can someone please explain everyone's obsession with Michelin PSS and this car? I come from an s2000 and I've used star specs and now the z2 on my 135. With the performance you get for the price I can't even fathom why anyone would run a different tire.

Wet performance, dry performance, great grip even in the early laps before up to temps.

Z2 should be the go to tire for the street/track 135er...

It costs less and out performs the PSS why wouldn't you?

wow, someone else gets it.

thank you!

[e82n54]

Originally Posted by Freon

RE:


That's crazy!

This happened to me too!! (Except lucky for me the tire didn't blow out.) I used to have Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires for street and track (HPDE) use. After wearing out the tread I had them replaced with a cheaper tire for street use only. After dismounting one of the tires from the wheel the bead section of part of the tire was not even connected to the rest of the tire! I should have taken a picture. The tire tech/mechanic was amazed to see it too. I don't know how it didn't blow out or deflate. It was just a matter of time before it blew out at high speed. SCARY! I offered a prayer of gratitude after realizing that.

I didn't even like the PSS that much anyway. Track performance was a let down. They overheated very easily resulting in skidding under hard braking and lots of understeer.

After switching to a wider RS3 up front at the track I'm MUCH happier. I'm also very happy with my street tires: BF Goodrich G-Force Sport Comp 2 - 225/40/18, 255/35/18

[08LMB135i]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

wow, someone else gets it.

thank you!

+1 also found my Direzzas lasted a lot longer than PSS!