What else with JB3?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by DocSean

Fact of the matter is there is only one aftermaket part you can put on your car which is actually illegal to run on the streets, and that is catless downpipes. Will some dealers overlook it, maybe...but here in AZ they would bust your ass in a heartbeat, and I suspect a lot of other states are that way or will become that way with tougher emissions coming in the next couple years.

I'd go with a larger turbo before I ever ran catless dp's, just my 2 cents, and I've been in the game for a while.

As I said, I don't care about the dealers. What they like or don't like has no effect on me.

How is a dealer going to "bust my ass"? The absolute MOST they can do is void the warranty, and any part that adds any significant amount of power is going to do exactly the same thing.


BTW, Arizone is a CARB state. Just about anything you do to your car is illegal, especially a tune.

If the state I'm living in decides to start going tailpipe checks I'll just put the factory pipes back on. It only takes a couple of hours.

[DocSean]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

As I said, I don't care about the dealers. What they like or don't like has no effect on me.

How is a dealer going to "bust my ass"? The absolute MOST they can do is void the warranty, and any part that adds any significant amount of power is going to do exactly the same thing.


BTW, Arizone is a CARB state. Just about anything you do to your car is illegal, especially a tune.

If the state I'm living in decides to start going tailpipe checks I'll just put the factory pipes back on. It only takes a couple of hours.

I'm not throwing my opinion in here for you, because there are people on here who maybe don't understand the pain in the ass catless downpipes can be. They stink, the second turbo seals get even a bit worn they puff blue smoke. Also, not to mention of a warranty gets voided its for the life of the car, most people will probably eventaully want to sell these, and a lot of those people will likely do so i next 5 years...good luck selling a 2 year old BMW with a voided factory warranty.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by DocSean

I'm not throwing my opinion in here for you, because there are people on here who maybe don't understand the pain in the ass catless downpipes can be. They stink, the second turbo seals get even a bit worn they puff blue smoke. Also, not to mention of a warranty gets voided its for the life of the car, most people will probably eventaully want to sell these, and a lot of those people will likely do so i next 5 years...good luck selling a 2 year old BMW with a voided factory warranty.

You suggested a larger turbo...what do you think that's going to do to the powertrain warranty? Same goes for any tune. If you're doing any substantial modifications to the car, you should just prepare to give up the warranty. Expecting to significantly increase the power and still have BMW cover the powertrain isn't exactly moral or legal you know.

If you're planning on selling the car in two years and can't afford to take a hit like that, you should probably just leave it alone. Many people's vehicle will be out of warranty by the time they sell or trade them anyway, or very close to it making it a pretty small issue. A used car with 5k left on the factory warranty isn't going to bring a much higher trade in price than one with nothing at all.

[esses]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Tires come when the first set wears out, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the suspension on this car.

Wha? This car is SOFT. It makes a stock e46 M3 feel sticky (and they aren't). Suspension changes are not an option, but a necessity, in my book. To each their own, of course.

[mrgoochio]

Originally Posted by bradford

Just FYI, it is *possible* to pass emissions with a well tuned engine and *NO* cats.

A "friend" of mine had a big-turbo Audi A4 with no cat and passed IL emissions testing several times even with the tailpipe sniffer.

I'm just sayin...

And he passed the visual inspection.. how?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by mrgoochio

And he passed the visual inspection.. how?

You can't see the primary cats on these cars anyway. As long as they see the secondaries, and it passes the sniffer, most places are going to let it ride. CA might be the exception, but I'll never live there anyway.

[bradford]

Originally Posted by mrgoochio

And he passed the visual inspection.. how?

Why would they do a visual inspection if there are no codes and it passes the sniffer? How would they know if the internal materials had been gutted, even if the original housing was there?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by bradford

Why would they do a visual inspection if there are no codes and it passes the sniffer? How would they know if the internal materials had been gutted, even if the original housing was there?

If they suspect the cats are gutted, they can shoot them with a heat gun and it will show up, but if everything else is good, there's really no reason for them to do that.

[BerkTechnology]

I would say a balance of suspension and power mods would be good. I would do down pipes and exhaust, intercooler and intake. Then for suspension I would do springs/coilovers, sway bars, rims and tires. I think that with those mods you will be really happy.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by BerkTechnology

I would say a balance of suspension and power mods would be good. I would do down pipes and exhaust, intercooler and intake. Then for suspension I would do springs/coilovers, sway bars, rims and tires. I think that with those mods you will be really happy.

Well I'd say! You just listed about $10K in mods, LOL!

[mrgoochio]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

You can't see the primary cats on these cars anyway. As long as they see the secondaries, and it passes the sniffer, most places are going to let it ride. CA might be the exception, but I'll never live there anyway.

well then lucky me! I'm still just waiting for california to break off the mainland and float into the ocean so we can become our own country..

[amdmaxx]

Good exhaust can drop weight by 10-50lb and your car will sound much better.
HP increase is there and your car will breath better.Exhaust should always be on top of everyone's upgrade list..

Originally Posted by themyst

Intake, catless DPs, Intercooler. Exhaust gains are not worth the money, but if you can afford it, go for it!

[My135]

Exhaust may not give you the best bang for the bucks, but it does give you better sound sensation for your driving pleasure. It is kind of buying a good sounding system to go along with the HD TV. Can you imagine watching HD movie without a hi fi system? Certainly you are missing something.

[WhiteOne]

Trying to get that perfect sound from a car with twin turbos might prove to be difficult.
Louder is not necessarily better. I have not heard an exhaust system yet, that I would spend money on. To each his own. JMHO

[enrita]

tested mine in Italy with catless dps and JB3 on map 6 and passed emissions check without problems.

[Gogud]

To return to the question posed in the original post (what mods would help the car deal with the added boost of the JB3, with precaution so the car doesn't overheat or have other problems, etc).

Thusfar, there don't appear to be many reports of body or driveline problems with the added power. Handling and traction can be improved, but they do not have a direct bearing on reliability. Heat is another matter. There are plenty of posts by those who race or push these cars hard, and not necesarily with the JB3. The cooling system has little headroom.This has been a concern of mine since I live in an area where temperatures are above 90 about half the year.

Good information is tough to come by. Remember that car engines are 'engineered' machines, not mystery devices controlled by the arcane laws of alchemy or some such nonsense. If a guy believes that the local tuner knows more about the engine than the factory, he is a fool. Where we don't have hard data on something, dispassionate logic is more useful than fanboy zeal. There is plenty of the latter on car sites.

Judging by what was offered for sale, the aftermarket concentrated on oil coolers. Could this have been because the car has an oil temp gauge but not water temp? A larger oil cooler will help, but if you do a lot of short distance commutes in moderate climates, the oil will be cold much of the time unless thermostatic control is used on the cooler. This is definitely not good.

The BMW Performance Engine kit addresses water cooling instead, showing that this is the most efficient route for a street driven 135. You may be able to achieve the same thing and save money with a radiator core that has a couple more rows of tubes.

Catless downpipes may be cooler than catted, but since there is a big push to lower emissions, CARB style inspections and testing may be in the future in every state. I have fought/dueled with CARB to get my cars smogged for over 30 years now. Don't believe it when someone tells you that strict emission tests can be faked! Plus, why be irresponsible and spew a bunch of crap into the atmosphere for a few measly hp? A low restriction muffler and piping may be better at removing heat than stock, but I have found no information on this.

Replacement intake systems are another area where a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted. I have not seen one system that completely isolates the intake air from the underhood air. When you get your car, take off the air filter and you'll see how little room is available for a proper air cleaner. Remember: Cold air equals free horsepower. Can you think of one modern manufacturer that doesn't use an intake system that draws air from outside the engine bay? Some people resort to adding scoops to the front to funnel in more air. You've seen um; they look like dust pans tacked onto the car, partially blocking air to the radiator. Extra air could be available through a tube connected to the left brake cooling duct and most likely some other frontal area could be opened up for another tube that does not obstruct anything.

How about the plumbing from the intake to the turbo inlets? Would insulating these parts be worth the effort? Once again, measurements count, opinions should not.

The intake stream after the turbos looks like a good place for some attention. If the posted results can be believed, a larger intercooler will give lower temperatures. Water/methanol injuction has been used successfully for years on turbocharged cars. There will be added complexity with the pump and plumbing and warrantee coverage might be compromised unless the system is easily returned to stock. Some systems spray water or water/alky on the outside of the intercooler to good effect.

Would carefully placed, sized, and shaped vents in the hood reduce underhood temps? Airflow can sometimes reverse from differing pressures brought on by differing speeds. How would the airflow around the car be affected?

So, besides water cooling improvements, which mod, or combination of mods, yields the best results? Which give the best bang for the buck? Until someone takes a comprehensive approach and runs controlled tests, all we have are anecdotal reports and dyno graphs by manufacturers who want to sell us something.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Gogud

The cooling system has little headroom.This has been a concern of mine since I live in an area where temperatures are above 90 about half the year.

A larger oil cooler will help, but if you do a lot of short distance commutes in moderate climates, the oil will be cold much of the time unless thermostatic control is used on the cooler. This is definitely not good.

I agree with much of what you said there, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things

A - The oil is thermostatically controlled. As long as the aftermarket cooler is using the factory path, cold weather and short commutes shouldn't be any worse than factory setup.

B - In practice, on street cars, overheating (water or oil) hasn't been a problem.


The factory has to design for a lot of variables, one of the largest being an idiot owner. If you're throwing a JB3 (or any other tune) on your car, you have to accept that fact that you could do damage to your vehicle, and pay a little more attention to how it's reacting. If you're running it hard and the temperature is above normal, it's probbably time to back off, and most of us understand that.

BMW's engineers can't count on that, and they can't tolerate the bad press when the media takes the car out to the desert and runs the hell out of it for 3 hours and gives it a bad review because the temps went above normal. I don't need my car to do that.

My opinion is that the safety factor they build in can be taken advantage of in some cases, but not without taking some responsibility for what you're doing.

[0002s]

to the OP

I'd start by doing nothing with the JB3 and just see how you like running 2/3 or 4/5 at 93 oct. It might be enough without the headaches that "can" come from running a tune with other modifications.

As far as tunes go it's a matter of how comfortable you feel with the tune manufacture's service after sale. They all add power and there are fanbois for all of them that can fine ONE dyno that shows theirs makes the most hp on the dyno.

If you are hellbent on more then I would look at what the combination gets you for what your goal is for the car.

(in no order)

1. Exhaust
This really doesn't add that much power for the price. What it really does is reduces weight. It also gives you different (some say better) sound. It will be louder and more like a race car. The question would be how is your local law enforcement's reaction to loud exhausts? (should not be an issue with dealer, depends on state but will be a CARB issue)

2. DP
The biggest return for the dollar with a tune. BUT...you are now into the area where a dealer has every right to start to deny drive train warranty claims for part failures. If BMW corporate "redflags" your VIN in the system, then you are going to have issue selling your car later with a warranty. There are other issues in that you will need o2 bypass, there is the blue smoke and so on. You are also going to have to run 93 oct to really get the max power out of Map 6. If you are leasing I wouldn't do DP's. (will eventually be an issue with dealer, will be a CARB issue)

3. Intake
I nice mod for the money with a little power gain. The BMW factory system with a drop in filer is almost the same power gains so it's a matter of wanting an extra 4-5 whp on the top end. If you go DP's do the intake as well. (should not be an issue with dealer, will not be a CARB issue)

4. Intercooler
Best if you are going to run high boost maps constantly in high/extremely high temperature regions. Will keep your intake temps down and add some HP. (will eventually be an issue with dealers, should not be a CARB issue)

5. Meth Injection
If you're not going to go all the way, why go at all..... (see Meth for Dummies)
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...highlight=meth
(will be a dealer issue...no question about this, don't know if it will be a CARB issue but by this time all the other stuff will make your car a CARB nightmare... )


As far as tires and suspension go.

Tires are a no brainer.

Suspension is a matter of what you want to sacrifice in ride quality for increase in handling. If you are not going to track your car I wouldn't bother unless you can't stand understeer at the limits on the street.


-jm2c