stock air box over dual cone - high heat

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by bmw13

it might be a mere 5mph difference, but it is a difference we are still feeling, and a negative one..

he said 5 degrees not 5 mph

There are some good points in this thread but IMO, its all placebo effect for the most part. NONE of us are F1 testers that can feel loosing or gaining 5-10hp

I also live in SFL and I have DCIs, I pound on my car all the long and yes, its not as fast as it was in winter time but this isnt my first boosted car so I know what to expect. I'm sure if this was my first turbo car I would be freaking out too but I know better. The only time I feel the car being sluggish, is when im at a stop light after hammering on it for a while, those first 200ft or so, dont feel as fast but thats manly due to heak soak from our small FMIC

ErvGotti & jeremyc74, both of you are right but its two extremes of the argument. At higher RPMs, DCI are benefitial but will suffer some in the lower RPMs, specially when the car is sitting at a stop light

[Irishace]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Nice your 11 sec time makes me jealous, but motivated.

11s are very attainable with our wonderful 135s. Catless DPs, FMIC, DCI, JB3 Map 10, race gas and drag radials and you will run 11.9 all day long.

[GaryS]

Originally Posted by escobar929

IMO, its all placebo effect for the most part. NONE of us are F1 testers that can feel loosing or gaining 5-10hp

After installing my FMIC/OC, I definitely couldn't feel that I gained hp, but I could feel that the pull that used to drop off severely above 5000 rpm was obviously dropping much less and continuing pretty strong to above 6000 rpm.

Likewise, after installing my CAI, I couldn't really feel that I gained hp, but I could feel that the pull dropped off even less above 5000 rpm, and I could also feel an obvious improvement in throttle response or turbo lag or something like that.

Maybe these upgrades were noticeable because I got them while it was 100 degrees outside. I have no idea if I'd feel so much difference if I installed them in January.

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by GaryS

After installing my FMIC/OC, I definitely couldn't feel that I gained hp, but I could feel that the pull that used to drop off severely above 5000 rpm was obviously dropping much less and continuing pretty strong to above 6000 rpm.

Likewise, after installing my CAI, I couldn't really feel that I gained hp, but I could feel that the pull dropped off even less above 5000 rpm, and I could also feel an obvious improvement in throttle response or turbo lag or something like that.

Maybe these upgrades were noticeable because I got them while it was 100 degrees outside. I have no idea if I'd feel so much difference if I installed them in January.

it makes sense, since thats the weakest area of our powerband and those mods will really shine at those rpm levels

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That's why the math is provided for you to be able to seperate the two.

Show us the math used to calculate the increase in compressor efficiency based on decreased inlet restriction please.

Your not getting what I'm saying on the calculator it's taking into account that your using the under the hood temp as the air temp thats cooling the intercooler which it's not. Thats the reason it's front mounted so it can easily catch ambient air. The pre IC temp on the calculator is the temp entering your IC after the compressor not the actual ambient air temp cooling the IC.

As far as efficiency it's simple mechanics as stated by this same manual
"Sharp bends cause a restriction in the flow of air, so try to put the turbo where the bends in the exhaust and intake tracts will be least restrictive"

The stock box has two bends after the filter as where the DCI's have none. Your compressor does not have to work as hard to pull this air beacuse the air is less restricted.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Your not getting what I'm saying on the calculator it's taking into account that your using the under the hood temp as the air temp thats cooling the intercooler which it's not..

You're the one who's not getting it. You don't have to use the calculator. The math is there to use seperate values for inlet temperature and intercooler temperature, and it STILL show significant heating after the intercooler.

You made the statement earlier that the temperature at the inlet side of the turbos doesn't make any difference because the intercooler will take care of it, and it's compelte and utter BS. If you're too lazy to do the math, you can very simple watch what happens to the numbers on the outlet side of the turbocharger to see what I'm talking about.

Raising the inlet temperature by 100 degrees results in a 120 degree increase on the outlet side of the turbocharger. There's absolutely ZERO evidence that shows that the stock intake box is any more restrictive than the DCI, so unless you've got something real and quantifiable (other than your 7 years working on air conditioners) to back that statement up with, DROP IT.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by Irishace

This debate will carry on for the remainder of time. In the meantime, I will continue to use DCIs which serve me well and support proven results on the dragstrip with my setup.

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Do you even know how to read the graph? The temps were taken via OBD port on the car itself, HOW DOES THAT NOT PROVE SHIT!!!

All three running DCI with the last running CAI, but each running diff race gas, tires, ect

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-135i-Timeslip-20453.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-135i-Timeslip-20454.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-135i-Timeslip-17201.html
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-135i-Timeslip-19909.html

Oh and once you go 10 maybe 15 MPH your already pushing ambient air to the intercooler so your redicoulous estimate of 100 degrees is unfounded. (and not the 3 degree diff in the test)

HERE'S THE LINK TO THE TOP 135 1/4 MILE SLIPS ALL RUNNING JB3 THATS WHY I KNOW TERRY DID HIS REASERCH AND I VALUE HIS WORD

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--135i-Drag-Racing.html

Oh and wheres your qualifications are you a mechanical engineer or maybe your ASE qualified or maybe your somebody thats been tuning motors all his life? I'm waiting?

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

You're the one who's not getting it. You don't have to use the calculator. The math is there to use seperate values for inlet temperature and intercooler temperature, and it STILL show significant heating after the intercooler.

You made the statement earlier that the temperature at the inlet side of the turbos doesn't make any difference because the intercooler will take care of it, and it's compelte and utter BS. If you're too lazy to do the math, you can very simple watch what happens to the numbers on the outlet side of the turbocharger to see what I'm talking about.

Raising the inlet temperature by 100 degrees results in a 120 degree increase on the outlet side of the turbocharger. There's absolutely ZERO evidence that shows that the stock intake box is any more restrictive than the DCI, so unless you've got something real and quantifiable (other than your 7 years working on air conditioners) to back that statement up with, DROP IT.

Everyone reading this I'm tired of arguing, just take in the fact that most of the 135i's on the links above are running 11's with DCI's and not the stock air box. Hell I'll take the word Irishace who has an 11 sec car look at his quote.

If you want to take the word of someone quoting math than people who actually have timeslip's be my guest. There's a reason people in the 11's are running DCI's and not the stock box. Increase in performance above 4500 RPM's which the N54 motor lacks.

[infinitekidM2C]

Grudge match? Loser changes their setup

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

If you want to take the word of someone quoting math than people who actually have timeslip's be my guest. There's a reason people in the 11's are running DCI's and not the stock box. Increase in performance above 4500 RPM's which the N54 motor lacks.

Yes, because the 1/4 mile times prove everything...right? Have you ever even been to a drag strip?

The car is parked with the hood up for cooling between runs. The guys who are serious about it push them through the staging lanes to prevent heat soak, and don't start them until the very last minute.

If you really think that's indicative of what's going to happen in the real world there's no hope for you.

[escobar929]

who needs around the horn when we have our own competitive banter

[angrybaker]

just drive around without a hood...will fix both problems

[My135]

Based on my understanding (by reading all these threads), that heat soak will be a problem for any DCI while the car is moving less than 30-40 mph, but not a big problem if the car is moving faster than 40 mph and at this speed, the additional benefit of a DCI will surpass the heat soak problem if any.

For me, who care about the hp/tq rating if I get stuck in traffic or driving around town. All I care is the performance improvement which I needed when driving FAST.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

There's absolutely ZERO evidence that shows that the stock intake box is any more restrictive than the DCI, so unless you've got something real and quantifiable (other than your 7 years working on air conditioners) to back that statement up with, DROP IT.

There IS evidence in the form of increased duty cycle measurments with the stock airbox which translates into the turbos having to work a little harder to overcome the pressure drop from the restriction.

Several members have logged and proven this.

Check out Mr. 5's datalogs with his modified stock air box if you want proof and don't trust the Burger Tuning thread.

But honestly, it's a no brainer about bends in airflow creating some drag.

Here are the quantified results from Mr 5's post (and I know you have see his posts)


Stock

60-100 mph Time 4.73
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 46.09%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 52.88%

Time 4.68
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 49.09%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 54.84%

Time 4.69
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 46.00%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 53.91%

DCI

4.67
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 45.48%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 50.54%

4.72
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 45.44%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 51.42%

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by Ilma

There IS evidence in the form of increased duty cycle measurments with the stock airbox which translates into the turbos having to work a little harder to overcome the pressure drop from the restriction.

Several members have logged and proven this.

Check out Mr. 5's datalogs with his modified stock air box if you want proof and don't trust the Burger Tuning thread.

But honestly, it's a no brainer about bends in airflow creating some drag.

Here are the quantified results from Mr 5's post (and I know you have see his posts)


Stock

60-100 mph Time 4.73
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 46.09%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 52.88%

Time 4.68
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 49.09%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 54.84%

Time 4.69
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 46.00%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 53.91%

DCI

4.67
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 45.48%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 50.54%

4.72
Average Wastegate Pulse Duration 45.44%
Peak Wastegate Pulse Duration 51.42%

Thank you I totally forgot about that thread

[escobar929]

so now that is all set and done, can we ban the next person who starts a thread asking this same shit again

[bmw13]

Originally Posted by escobar929

so now that is all set and done, can we ban the next person who starts a thread asking this same shit again

ban me for making an observation? sharing what i felt through my car? i am on here to learn okay escobar and you really can be such a dick sometimes about it.... we really should meet up and work this out buddy , if i do see you on the road, you will know. i promise...

out of my few posts, you always got something negative to say...

[escobar929]

^relax homeboy, it wasnt directed at you

but this topic has been beaten to death in every single N54 fourm and its always the same two arguments

PS, i was at all the meet that were in Boca, so you could have came out any time and let me know your thoughts.

and the only time I remember you, is when I offered my help w/ the adjustment pin, yea real douche I am

[bmw13]

Originally Posted by escobar929

^relax homeboy, it wasnt directed at you

but this topic has been beaten to death in every single N54 fourm and its always the same two arguments

PS, i was at all the meet that were in Boca, so you could have came out any time and let me know your thoughts.

and the only time I remember you, is when I offered my help w/ the adjustment pin, yea real douche I am

im sorry man guess i took it the wrong way... no hard feelings.. got to stand my ground you know.. felt picked on for going out of my way to write that up..
and as far as the adjustment pin what re you refering to i honestly do not remember? peace and much love

[bryans2k]

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406401

read the above thread and let me know how 183F IAT isnt hot.

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by bryans2k

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406401

read the above thread and let me know how 183F IAT isnt hot.

It is hot but as stated earlier Ambient air temps will affect the intercooler's ability to cool more than sucking in under the hood air.

If you look at the picture of the engine in the link below berk technologies uses basically DCI's with a shield, notice how it's not routed to the front bumper like traditional CAI

http://octanereport.com/gallery-berk...ology-bmw-135i

They're solution

"-I need to be using a large meth nozzle or better intercooler, or both".

Notice how they didn't say "we need to put the stock box back on" or "we need to install a CAI"

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

If you look at the picture of the engine in the link below berk technologies uses basically DCI's with a shield, notice how it's not routed to the front bumper like traditional CAI

What picture are you looking at? the CAI is being feed cold air from the stock feed?

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by BahamaBart

What picture are you looking at? the CAI is being feed cold air from the stock feed?

That's why I said "traditional" CAI most rout to where the filter is at the bumper

http://www.burgertuning.com/dcintake.html

With BMS's some fresh air is still hitting the filters with the stock feed in place, granted probably not as much as the AFE's but without the bends

Again the topic here is Stock Box VS DCI's

The AFE's will have way less restriction than the stock box, but if you want to spend around double the price, go for it.

I am in no way knocking the AFE's but I'd rather put the money towards my FMIC and LSD fund.