135i vs E92 M3... Am I mad?

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by MPower

I've heard rumors that a pig can walk around a track faster than the 135i, but its just a rumor...

Seriously, where did you hear that?

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...d.php?t=464799

In this thread, from a guy stationed in Germany. It's been posted on this site a few times as well.

[FASTTOYS]

I have an e46 M3 looking to trade it for the new 135I or the m coupe. I feel the new M3 put on to much weight + I dont like the stretched look from the side/ from the door handle to the end of the bumper. I had a deposite on the new M3 and pulled it in Jan08. I will drive one later in the year to make sure

The good news the new 135I will be out in two weeks, drive it look it over then you will know, that is what i will be doing.

If this car is your DD I would get the new M3, as long as gas and insurance is not an issue. I walked from an M coupe deal yesturday so I can drive & see the 135 before I buy.

Current Toys:
2002 LF Z06 vette
2003 e46 M3 SMG 24k miles looking to sell 100% stock
2005 911S
2002 GSXR 750
& my DD is a 2007 VW GLI DSG

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Vivid

But the thing is, if it were just numbers I would not be worried about the new M3 but its not... Just read the reviews both from the press and fellow enthusiasts... Most of the mags still say the M3 is a great car but they all have some major criticism and/or no longer call it the class killer/dominator as the previous M3 have been... Most of the criticism comes from the driving experience you talk about thing like the lack of steering feel and how the M3 has become far more of a GT car... On the other hand Clarkson and others call the 135i the best car BMW makes.

I don't know what magazines you are reading but the M3 is still consistently praised. It consistently has beaten the RS4 in comparisons and the reaction from the North American press has been very, very positive.

And Clarkson has been the only person to claim that the 135i is best car BMW makes. :wink:

Otherwise, the 135i may well be a good car but I would never turn down the opportunity to gain access to 8,300 rpms worth of perfection.

[Advevo]

BMW M likes guys like you Mpower. They are easy target to sell expensive cars too.

Bmw M has made its Motorsport name with E30 M3 and dtm races for the big public.

They still use this as a marketing tool to sell M cars. But M cars today have nothing in common with Motorsport. IT s all looks luxery and weight and a very high price tag.

I love M but not the luxery highway burners. I like the Agile M when i attact corners and gives me a smile on my face.

The 135i is more M then all the M cars together.

Only the marketing from M has done it s job perfectly and lots of people still believe in it.

I believe in it when i see a nice drivers car from bmw again. That s not a 1655kg M with high hp. Give me a 1200kg drivers car with 300hp.

[vivid]

Mpower,

I have re-read the reviews and as I have always said the M3 is a great car but nearly all reviews give it some "buts"... Here are some of the buts:

AutoWeek

(without changing the steering ratio à la BMW’s active steering) to provide more steering feel. Still, we’d like a bit more weight. It is only a small factor, but it does detract from the overall driving experience.

You are also aware of the car’s larger dimensions. It never feels quite as wieldy as before when you press hard. It’s not all that much bigger, but it gives the feeling that the M3 has moved up in size. Call it middle-age flab, if you like.

...

Driving the M3 has always been a compelling experience, and that feeling remains. The new engine is potent yet doesn’t dominate proceedings in the one-dimensional way we’d feared. That’s because the chassis is well up to the job. It devours corners with clinical efficiency. In making it do so, however, BMW has had to trade off some of the M3’s renowned sensitivity.

AutoCar Review

And the steering never scores more than six out of 10 no matter where or how you drive the car. Nor do the brakes, which suffered from fade on the road and went away badly on the track. Or the fuel consumption, which was regularly down in the mid-teens on roads on which the old car would have hit well over 20mpg.
Should I buy one?

You are not likely to be disappointed by the new M3 because in many ways it is a deeply impressive car, with a huge range of abilities and very few flaws. But if you were expecting a faster, yet more exciting version of the old car, you might want to wait until the CSL version appears which, on this evidence, will need to happen sooner rather than later to truly keep the legend alive. Even so, as an everyday super-coupe the M3 is some motorcar. So long as you can afford the fuel bills.

Motor Trend

Yep, the new BMW M3 is everything the BMW faithful have been waiting for -- and then some. But ironically, it's the "then some" bit that might have a few of those faithful scratching their heads.

You see, at first acquaintance the new M3 appears to have -- whisper it, now -- gone soft.It feels remarkably refined as it loafs along the freeway in sixth gear, even with the optional 19-inch wheel/tire combo fitted to our tester. And although that screaming V-8 develops more than 100 horsepower per liter, it's a pussycat around town, pulling cleanly from as little as 1500 rpm. The four-cylinder E30 that founded the M3 dynasty 22 years ago was as rowdy and rambunctious as a punk rocker in a ripped T-shirt; by comparison this fourth generation version is as smooth and suave as a banker in a Brioni suit and $1000 wingtips.

Some hardcore M3 purists will find that a little hard to get used to. And they will be missing a key point about this car: that it has more depth to it -- more layers of expertise -- than any previous M3.

...

The M3's Servotronic steering is slightly disappointing. In sport mode, it has too much gain the moment you pull the wheel off-center, and the weighting feels too artificial. In normal mode there's not the tactility you want from a BMW. The thick rim of the steering wheel doesn't help -- you want to drive this car with your fingertips, and you end up driving it with your fists.

Motoring.co.za

Exhibitionism over, a welcome and unexpected attribute emerges. The previous M3's worst aspect was its firm, lumpy ride over bumps, but this new one proves comfortably supple in the softest of its three suspension modes, bearably so even in the firmest.

This leads to a worry; if a car is running on ultra-wide, low-profile tyres yet rides well, there's a chance the suppleness is achieved by building extra compliance into the suspension's joints. Unless done very cleverly, the steering's precision then suffers.

...


There's one key ingredient missing: a proper steering feel. BMW talks a lot about how the new M3's steering keeps you in touch with the road, but it doesn't.

Without any real sense of what is happening under the front wheels, you end up taking corners in a series of bites, in search of the optimum steering angle to match the speed and the tightness of turn.

You touch the brakes unnecessarily, just to reassure yourself. Maybe that's the price of this M3's much greater weight than the original's: much more power assistance, and so the subtleties of feedback are swamped.

At the Ascari track, we can explore the M3's outer limits without fear. I'm powersliding through the hairpin, of course; how could I not?

But the remarkable thing is the way I can drift the tail through really fast, sweeping bends, keeping the power on and correcting the steering as needed. It's a wonderful feeling, one I have never quite dared to experience to this degree in two decades of motoring journalism.

But even on a track, the nose feels as numb as the tail is talkative. That's a shame. Fix that, and the M3 would be one of the most satisfying cars to drive. As it is, it must make do with being the drifter's dream.

Ok I got bored of reading reviews but those extract are from the first four reviews listed over at M3Posts, in other words I was not cherry picking my articles but reading reviews in order from a list of reviews... I know you or I could go thorugh those same articles and pick out coments like fastest M3 ever, best M3 ever, great engine and goes sideways but for me fun to drive means know what the car is doing with steering, breaking and generally feeling nimble and that is exactly what the reviews put into question...

I will say again the M3 is a great car but nearly everyone has a "But" and it it usually comes down to how engaging the drive is and how the new M3 is a GT more than a race car in street dress.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Vivid

I will say again the M3 is a great car but nearly everyone has a "But" and it it usually comes down to how engaging the drive is and how the new M3 is a GT more than a race car in street dress.

My point was never that the E92 M3 was faultless, only that it still is considered the best car in its class and still is a great car.

[vivid]

Originally Posted by MPower

My point was never that the E92 M3 was faultless, only that it still is considered the best car in its class and still is a great car.

but to be honest its not... I can hardly believe I am saying this but the Nissan GTR is...

I mean the E46 had nearly no competition, maybe the C55 but after that there were some distance competitors like the S4 and G35 but the M3 really out classed all of its competitors and destroyed the class...

Now with the E92 there are some very very strong competitors and the class leader is not E92 but the GTR... the M3 leads the rest of the group but not by much, the RS4, C63 and IS-F all get glowing reviews also and are right at the heels of the E92...

I know I sound like a hater, but I am really a very big BMW and Motorsports fan... But I'm having serious doubt over dropping $75K on a car which may have grown into a GT.

[dna550]

Just as the 1-Series is a slightly smaller E46, the E92 M3 is a slightly smaller E39 M5.

Many of us here are looking for a car somewhere between the E36 M3 and E46 M3.

No doubt BMW will eventually introduce such a model. Expect this to arrive when the E92 M3 excitement subsides.

With heavier platforms to work with and ever more regulations to comply with, not to mention adults who weigh much more than they used to, it will be difficult for BMW to keep a driver's focused 1-Series coupe as light as some of the iconic M3's that made BMW famous.

[slipkmaggot]

there has been a lot of bashing about ///M so i just wanted to say that the M5 is a BEAST. . It is the reason i am a BMW fan, the M3 however, i think i would prefer the 135i because ofthe value it offers. That part is a personal decision.

[FASTTOYS]

Ok I have owned all 3 american generation BMW M3. All great cars but different. I feel the new bmw M cars are to refine for my taste, I like the muscle car feel of the older generations with that german quality. I had a 2004 mini s works car & I liked it better than the new generation. I do feel the new m3 looks to big like a baby M6, but I will drive it & see if its another M I must have.

[PB07NOVA]

Having pissed away mountains of cash over the years on lots of fast, pricey cars, including all three previous generations of M3, I've come to the conclusion that for me, it's been more fun to drive a slower car 'fast' than it is to drive a fast car 'slow'.

You couldn't possibly have more fun on public roads than when piloting a Miata. Wringing out the motor and suspension is so rewarding, and you cannot do that in a really fast car while remaining near the speed limits. Even a 135i is over the top, but I especially don't see how one could extract anywhere close to the capability of an E93 M3 while driving around Atlanta.

I suppose some might call the new M3 a relative bargain, but for many, it would be excessive. My string of M3 ownership has ended. The E46's grabby clutch and relatively low-torque motor made it difficult to drive smoothly in traffic. Hated that raspy, metallic-sounding exhaust, too. I've read the E92 is similar, and that is just NOT appealing to me.

The 135i hits a sweet spot of price, performance, and practicality along with the solidity and build quality I crave in a German car.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[WAY]

Like a few others, money is not a major consideration when I decided to buy the 135i. However, I never even considered the M3. To me, the M3 is neither here nor there for me. It's too much of a GT car, and I have a C63 coming that will do a better job as a GT than the M3 will. What I wanted was something that I could track and have fun with on the twisties, which I would enjoy more in a small and agile package like the 135i instead of the M3. Some would buy a M3 for the badge and image, but I have an Aston Martin for days that I want to valet in front of a 5 star hotel (not that I am not way inclined!). But if you only have one car which you would like to cruise long distance, take it to track days, and have a bit of badge snobbery, then M3 is probably perfect. But not in my case.

[vivid]

well its done... I just got of the phone with my dealer and put a hold on my order for the M3... I got there just in time as it was set to go into production this week... I am really excited about the 135i and can't wait to test drive it in the next week or so.

[ersatzS2]

Originally Posted by SR08NOVA

Having pissed away mountains of cash over the years on lots of fast, pricey cars, including all three previous generations of M3, I've come to the conclusion that for me, it's been more fun to drive a slower car 'fast' than it is to drive a fast car 'slow'.

+100 If we archived a 'best of' quotes for automobile forums, that one would be on the list. This is even truer on the track. Wringing all the potential from a Neon rental car on a racetrack is in many ways more satisfying than scaring oneself witless exploring the limit in a turbo carrera.

Originally Posted by SR08NOVA

You couldn't possibly have more fun on public roads than when piloting a Miata. Wringing out the motor and suspension is so rewarding, and you cannot do that in a really fast car while remaining near the speed limits.

I never had a Miata but I drove a series II '67 Lotus Elan as a daily driver for 4 years. Every time I got behind the wheel I felt like Sterling Moss. A long succession of much more capable Porsches never delivered the same consistent thrill just going to the video store.

Not sure the 135i fits in that category, so to stay on topic, I'll just weigh in with two points:

1)The newest M3 is a Grand touring car in the tradition of big Jags, Aston Martins, or front-engined Porsches. Incredibly capable for it's size and complexity, but still a touring car. The one seems like more of a traditional sports sedan.
2)The V8 M3 is a response to marketing realities, not the least of which are motorsports requirements. The new M3 racecar looks like a monster and the Porsche message boards echo with the sounds of fear and trembling.

[spudw]

Originally Posted by Vivid

well its done... I just got of the phone with my dealer and put a hold on my order for the M3... I got there just in time as it was set to go into production this week... I am really excited about the 135i and can't wait to test drive it in the next week or so.

Applause not we're on a 1er site, but because you seem to have chosen against simply buying the most car you could within budget. I'd drive an M3 in a heartbeat, but I'd still want a 1er as well.

[adc]

Originally Posted by MPower

But, if we start talking about that, then we need talk about cars like the future Camaro and Challenger doing the same thing for thousands less.

I'm not sure they'll do the same thing, if their weight will be around 4000lbs. I'm not even very sure about the price - do you have any info on price?


Image, class and brand name aside, of course I'll test drive any of these bruisers that come with a manual tranny. :smile:

[dixon1763]

Originally Posted by SR08NOVA

Having pissed away mountains of cash over the years on lots of fast, pricey cars, including all three previous generations of M3, I've come to the conclusion that for me, it's been more fun to drive a slower car 'fast' than it is to drive a fast car 'slow'.

Amen to that.

[ihatepostmodernism]

Advevo, what specifically did you dislike about the new m3? I originally was sold on the 135i, but now I am considering other cars. I was strongly, strongly considering the new m3, but your dislike of it has made me hesitate. What other cars are available out there besides the 135i? What do you think about the 335i?

My original thought process went like this: 135 and 335 cost the same, roughly, and I like the 335 more (yes i know its heavier). But, if I get the 335 I will add modifications, void the warranty, and cost myself lots of extra $.....so the m3, a "ready made" sports sedan, is the better choice. I had an e46 m3 and really liked it.

Helpful criticism from all is appreciated. I think my budget maxes out around 70k.

[vivid]

I went to the dealer today and they had a new M3 on the lot and I must say I was disappointed... It just did not excite me as M3 of old have done... I kept thinking "wow it looks big"... The wheel arches extent to the front bumper and making the front of the car so wide... From the side the car looks very plain... I can now say I don;t want an M3 any more... I'm even more excited now to drive a 135i: small, compact and driver focused sounds bloody good to me....

[BMW Dreamer]

WOW. After reading all these posts, I feel so lucky being able to afford a 135i manual sport. All you WELL OFF people also love the little 135i. If I could afford an M3 I might consider it, but I think if I were wealthy I would still get a 135i. BUT the Nissan GT-R would DEFINATLEY be in my driveway also.

[vivid]

Originally Posted by Jeff1962

WOW. After reading all these posts, I feel so lucky being able to afford a 135i manual sport. All you WELL OFF people also love the little 135i. If I could afford an M3 I might consider it, but I think if I were wealthy I would still get a 135i. BUT the Nissan GT-R would DEFINATLEY be in my driveway also.

If I new then what I know now, two years ago I would have put a deposit on the GT-R and not the M3... GT-R has really out done itselfe... A++ to Nissan

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Vivid

I went to the dealer today and they had a new M3 on the lot and I must say I was disappointed... It just did not excite me as M3 of old have done... I kept thinking "wow it looks big"... The wheel arches extent to the front bumper and making the front of the car so wide... From the side the car looks very plain... I can now say I don;t want an M3 any more... I'm even more excited now to drive a 135i: small, compact and driver focused sounds bloody good to me....

Couldn't disagree more. But that may not surprise many here...