Noob: Proper Manual Shifting Questions

[atr_hugo]

This is an easy manual package to learn to drive on. Clutch feel is good (it's easy to feel it engage) and the pedal is realtively light (not as featherlight as a Honda but not as calf-muscle bulking as an old non-hydraulic clutch). The shifter is well gated (some six speeds have tight gate spacing) and the throws are fairly short. But the real deal-sealer is the hill-holder, man I spent 30+ years perfecting keeping a manual trannied car from rolling backwards on take-off on a hill and here BMW can make a noob look like a pro in no time at all!

[Heinzftw]

Well on the 20+ Honda's I have driven reverse is just feeling the clutch
"catch" and feather the gas. How is the clutch learning experience going for you by the way?

[ScottyGams]

Originally Posted by Thud

It should be easier than most other cars... lots of low end torque, and the hill-start assist feature.

But that just means you're SOL if you learn to drive on this car, and then at some point you have to drive a car that doesn't prevent you from rolling backwards downhill! :eyebulge:

OH YEAH! good point, i forgot it had that! that makes things much easier! that is prob the #1 most scary thing when learning manual. that feeling of your car rolling back into the people behind you as you panic to get the right clutch/fuel mixture

[OzF16]

Originally Posted by penny

Thanks OzF16. Really good info. Only thing I don't understand is that you use 1st gear at 0mph. Wouldn't that stall the car? If I'm on 1st with foot off clutch and gas completely, would it idle or stall?

I also noticed I've been depressing both the clutch and brake until I completely stop. I'm assuming it's better that I depress the clutch, quickly shift to neutral, and release clutch .... then brake to stop light.

When I said I only use 1st gear at 0 mph, what I meant was that I only accelerate using 1st gear when I've come to a complete stop. For rolling stops, I only downshift to 2nd gear for accelerating because it's much smoother.

You're statement about not coming to a stop with clutch in is right. I typically leave it in the gear I'm in until my speed gets slow, and then go to neutral before the car starts to shudder/stall.

[penny]

Originally Posted by Heinzftw

Well on the 20+ Honda's I have driven reverse is just feeling the clutch
"catch" and feather the gas. How is the clutch learning experience going for you by the way?

It's going a lot better than I had thought. I can shift up/down all gears after about 4 hours of learning. Only problem is making it smooth. After two weeks, there's still a bit of a jerk from 1st to 2nd gear. And damn...all this time I thought I was naturally good at hills. Turns out BMW has been assisting me.

Originally Posted by OzF16

When I said I only use 1st gear at 0 mph, what I meant was that I only accelerate using 1st gear when I've come to a complete stop. For rolling stops, I only downshift to 2nd gear for accelerating because it's much smoother.

You're statement about not coming to a stop with clutch in is right. I typically leave it in the gear I'm in until my speed gets slow, and then go to neutral before the car starts to shudder/stall.

Good info. When shifting to neutral, is it better to depress the clutch or not? I tried both but clutch down seems much smoother.

[OzF16]

Originally Posted by penny

Good info. When shifting to neutral, is it better to depress the clutch or not? I tried both but clutch down seems much smoother.

Yes, always depress the clutch when moving the stick.

[jasonite]

Originally Posted by OzF16

...You're statement about not coming to a stop with clutch in is right. I typically leave it in the gear I'm in until my speed gets slow, and then go to neutral before the car starts to shudder/stall.

This is good advice. As you get more comfortable with driving stick, Penny, definitely work on leaving the car in gear or maybe downshifting into 3rd or 2nd (depending on speed/how far you have to coast to a stop/whether you're approaching a downhill stop, etc) as this will improve fuel economy and save on your brakes.

If you always coast to a stop in neutral, you're putting a lot of wear on your brakes. Also, I think I've heard that coasting to a stop in neutral is actually less fuel ecomonic than coasting in 3rd or 2nd, because when you're in gear, the wheels are still helping to drive the engine so it uses less fuel. Don't quote me on that though. But like OzF16 said, definitely remember to put the clutch in, shift to neutral, and let the clutch back out as you approach 0 so the car doesn't shudder and stall.

I was in your position 5 months ago, learning to drive stick on my new MCS, so I know exactly how you feel. Good luck and enjoy your 1!

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by jasonite

This is good advice. As you get more comfortable with driving stick, Penny, definitely work on leaving the car in gear or maybe downshifting into 3rd or 2nd (depending on speed/how far you have to coast to a stop/whether you're approaching a downhill stop, etc) as this will improve fuel economy and save on your brakes.

If you always coast to a stop in neutral, you're putting a lot of wear on your brakes.

Rather wear the brakes than the clutch. Brakes are much cheaper to replace. Plus, the large Brembo brakes on the 135i resist fade extremely well. Save your clutch instead.

Also, I think I've heard that coasting to a stop in neutral is actually less fuel ecomonic than coasting in 3rd or 2nd, because when you're in gear, the wheels are still helping to drive the engine so it uses less fuel. Don't quote me on that though.

I believe the better fuel economy is due to less braking. Braking consumes fuel, but less fuel is used here because the lower gears naturally help slow down the car immediately after downshifting from a higher gear. Unlike most non-hybrid cars, fuel economy is actually helped by braking in the 135i because it has a regenerative braking system, so conservative braking is not as necessary.

[zivilyn861]

Originally Posted by jasonite

This is good advice. As you get more comfortable with driving stick, Penny, definitely work on leaving the car in gear or maybe downshifting into 3rd or 2nd (depending on speed/how far you have to coast to a stop/whether you're approaching a downhill stop, etc) as this will improve fuel economy and save on your brakes.

If you always coast to a stop in neutral, you're putting a lot of wear on your brakes.

I'm not trying to sound mean, but I respectfully disagree with the above statements.

Engine breaking is one of the worst habits you can get into with a manual car. Using the transmission to slow the car versus the brakes just seems backwards. Keep in mind that brakes are meant to be used and eventually replaced--transmissions are not, generally speaking.

And when you think about it, brakes are there for stopping, so why wouldn't you use them? You *want* to wear your brakes... and if you don't, then you likely have no place accelerating so much!

[120dredrum]

Using the engine/transmission to brake is much better.. there will be no out of the ordinary wear on either provided you down brake at the rights times.. i wouldnt suggest using the transmission to brake if your revs are too high for a down change.. rather brake conventionally first.. wait for revs to drop.. then down change.. there is no one way or the other.. most of the times you should be using both.. hard braking in the wet will result in easier aquaplaning than engine braking..
..also engine breaking can be more ecomical than coasting in neutral.. the thing is your economy is based largely on your engine revs.. if you are coasting downhill your engine revs will be quite high due to momentum.. whereas if you were in a low gear.. the gear will restrict your engine to a certain rev band..

If you're concerned with all this conflicting advice, may i suggest an advanced driving course from BMW itself? Its the best thing ever.. especially the skid pad

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by zivilyn861

I'm not trying to sound mean, but I respectfully disagree with the above statements.

Engine breaking is one of the worst habits you can get into with a manual car. Using the transmission to slow the car versus the brakes just seems backwards. Keep in mind that brakes are meant to be used and eventually replaced--transmissions are not, generally speaking.

And when you think about it, brakes are there for stopping, so why wouldn't you use them? You *want* to wear your brakes... and if you don't, then you likely have no place accelerating so much!

You can respectfully disagree with the comments made, as this is your opinion, but unfortunately you are wrong.

As an automotive engineer the comments made in regards to downshifting to reduce speed and brake pad wear are 100% correct.:wink:

[atr_hugo]

It's easier to replace pads then clutch surfaces - Granted, how many downshifts does it take to wear out a clutch though? It used to be that you had to use engine braking to effectively slow a car, watch any movie clip from races prior to about 1965, the brakes were usually that crappy and prone to fading; but these days (thanks to Girling and Lockheed oh so many years ago ; -) the brakes are postively great. The only real need for engine braking is when coming down off a mountain and you need to reduce the potential for fade.

[InsaneSkippy]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

It's easier to replace pads then clutch surfaces - Granted, how many downshifts does it take to wear out a clutch though? It used to be that you had to use engine braking to effectively slow a car, watch any movie clip from races prior to about 1965, the brakes were usually that crappy and prone to fading; but these days (thanks to Girling and Lockheed oh so many years ago ; -) the brakes are postively great. The only real need for engine braking is when coming down off a mountain and you need to reduce the potential for fade.

x2



Besides, which would you rather have:

A) A worn out transmission and good fuel economy/less brake pad wear.

B.) FREE replacement pads from BMW, a little bit less fuel economy (probably so minimal you wouldn't notice the difference) and a transmission with much less wear (depending on driving conditions, mileage, etc.)

[120dredrum]

think about this logically now.. even an automatic will downshift for you when you brake.. why dont auto guts switch to neutral when braking?

[zivilyn861]

Originally Posted by Zuzu

You can respectfully disagree with the comments made, as this is your opinion, but unfortunately you are wrong.

As an automotive engineer the comments made in regards to downshifting to reduce speed and brake pad wear are 100% correct.:wink:

You're going to have to substantiate your claims a bit more than that, I'm afraid. As this is a largely contested topic, I'd like to get some more information to either a) help me reverse my opinion, or b) allow me to continue with my current stance.

I'll give you that I can see applications for both depending on situation, but I don't see how putting stress on the transmission is better than wearing the brakes, which are designed to be replaced. I honestly don't see why using the brakes is such a negative...

[zivilyn861]

Originally Posted by 120dredrum

think about this logically now.. even an automatic will downshift for you when you brake.. why dont auto guts switch to neutral when braking?

Autos do this out of necessity, as an auto cannot go into neutral when engaged in "D" mode. I believe autos must be sequential. When you are slowing down in 5th gear, for example, you're losing RPM, right? Now, given that the engine seems to have a minimum threshold for RPM (ie: when it gets below X RPM, it stops), it must down shift to raise the RPM level back up as you continue to decelerate. Often times, considering autos don't blip the throttle, this results in a nasty lurch of sorts as the engine goes from ~1000 RPM to 4000+.

At least, that's how I see it. I'm probably horribly wrong!

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by zivilyn861

I'm not trying to sound mean, but I respectfully disagree with the above statements.

Engine breaking is one of the worst habits you can get into with a manual car. Using the transmission to slow the car versus the brakes just seems backwards. Keep in mind that brakes are meant to be used and eventually replaced--transmissions are not, generally speaking.

And when you think about it, brakes are there for stopping, so why wouldn't you use them? You *want* to wear your brakes... and if you don't, then you likely have no place accelerating so much!

The clutch is designed to withstand the full torque load associated with getting a 3300lb car moving from a dead stop. The wear associated with downshifting is a fraction of that and won't significantly reduce the life of the clutch at all. The loads involved with matching the engine speed with the tires just aren't the same as matching the tires to the engine speed while applying the throttle.

It's not that engine braking is required, but it's not going to hurt the clutch.

[zivilyn861]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The clutch is designed to withstand the full torque load associated with getting a 3300lb car moving from a dead stop. The wear associated with downshifting is a fraction of that and won't significantly reduce the life of the clutch at all. The loads involved with matching the engine speed with the tires just aren't the same as matching the tires to the engine speed while applying the throttle.

It's not that engine braking is required, but it's not going to hurt the clutch.

That's a good point, thanks for your post. I suppose I'm negative about it because I've seen people come into a shop with destroyed transmissions from engine braking.

One example that I recall--and I realize it's an extreme example--was an old woman who decided to down shift her automatic accord when going 50-60mph down a mountain. She limped the car into the shop as I waited for my car to be finished. I keep having that pop into my mind and think that it's worth the extra braking costs to me, personally.

But, agreed, I can see how it's not necessarily going to destroy things if you're doing it under less extreme conditions.

[OrientBlauZHP]

I almost always downshift to slow down, because it does lead to better fuel economy and less wear on pads/rotors. You won't wear the clutch out or damage the engine if you perform this act properly.

I've replaced brakes but I've never had to replace a clutch or tranny....and I can almost promise you the first time you'll have to replace your brakes will be after the 50k and you'll be out of warrenty - if these brakes wear anything like my 330's did.

[plien69]

IMO, you shouldn't use the engine/tranny to slow a car in situations where a brake will do it quicker. e.g. when you're doing 50 mph and you need to brake for a light, don't downshift to 2nd.

One thing to keep in mind regarding downshifting is that for safety reasons, it can be advantageous to have the car in the proper gear at all times in one needs to suddenly accelerate out of danger.

[x3user45]

When I first learned to drive manual, I braked all the time, but as I got better and learned to downshift, I found it to be better when coming out of turns to be in the proper gear.

I think it really comes down to driver skill, if you downshift wrong, you can be in for big troubles, there is nothing wrong with wearing down the brake pads especially during your learning process, dont tackle downshifting until later.

Even though you think you've got the shifting thing going great, you will hate yourself if you ever do a accidental downshift from say 5th, to 2nd. Practice on a cheap car, or a rental

[MrDrWatson]

Originally Posted by plien69

One thing to keep in mind regarding downshifting is that for safety reasons, it can be advantageous to have the car in the proper gear at all times in one needs to suddenly accelerate out of danger.

Exactly!