How does Steptronic compare to DSG?

[Rubber Ducky]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

the "advantage" of MT is in the feeling it gives you of being directly connected to the car. i relish the joys of shifts I execute, not just "shifts perfectly executed" by a computer. if you are looking for a competitive advantage, that's another story. i just wanna enjoy driving.

but i agree with you that the throttle response is the same in the auto with the locking torque converter. (that is a bit slow in both, whether it be the drive by wire or the ever so slight turbo lag)

Would gently offer that the rest of the 'direct car connection' is through a drive-by-wire throttle, computer assisted brakes, and an ECU with more computing power than the space shuttle. So 'direct' is really pretty 'remote' as far as technology is concerned.

I'm personally sympathetic, but the way I really got to the Step side of the argument was after a year of frustration driving 335i Step in D or DS. I was about to swap it in on an MT version when I decided to give the paddle-shift drill one more go. Once I got my head around the idea that it was same-same MT but quicker and put my driving thoughts into gear selection, I discovered as much fun as MT ... without the GD CDV (last car was an '04 330i ZHP MT).

The single advantage of MT over Step-with-paddles is the ability to feel what gear you're in without looking. Your hand tells you which gear you're in. On flip side, it's the sounds and rhythm of the engine and gears that say 'shift' and it's not too often one doesn't remember what gear one is in.

[x97Melbourne]

Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky

Not so. When the torque converter is locked, it's locked. And with this version of the Step xmission, it locks around 1050 RPM and stays locked. I've been an MT guy most of my driving life, but I find no advantage to an MT over the Step in the 135/335/535 (have driven all 3 within the past month) other than saving a few bucks.

For those who relish the joys and beauty of shifts perfectly executed: try driving. More fun than shifting. Gear selection is an art. Gear changing is a mechanical exercise increasingly better performed by machinery. Luddites were 19th century. Manual transmissions are looking more and more like 'so 20th century.'

=====
no doubt does the bmw step-brain shift quickly and efficiently. no doubt does it select gears well.

i don't think people pick manuals for any performance advantage, because as you correctly pointed out, there is often little or no performance advantage to a MT. the people who pick manuals want a more involved driving experience and like to choose the revs for themselves. whether or not you find shifting "fun" is your personal opinion, but no one can argue that a 3-petal manual offers a more interactive driving experience.:wink:

[alexp1_tx]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-c...ansmission.htm

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky

Would gently offer that the rest of the 'direct car connection' is through a drive-by-wire throttle, computer assisted brakes, and an ECU with more computing power than the space shuttle. So 'direct' is really pretty 'remote' as far as technology is concerned.

I'm personally sympathetic, but the way I really got to the Step side of the argument was after a year of frustration driving 335i Step in D or DS. I was about to swap it in on an MT version when I decided to give the paddle-shift drill one more go. Once I got my head around the idea that it was same-same MT but quicker and put my driving thoughts into gear selection, I discovered as much fun as MT ... without the GD CDV (last car was an '04 330i ZHP MT).

The single advantage of MT over Step-with-paddles is the ability to feel what gear you're in without looking. Your hand tells you which gear you're in. On flip side, it's the sounds and rhythm of the engine and gears that say 'shift' and it's not too often one doesn't remember what gear one is in.

i agree that there is way too much technology going on already. and you can go with it and get the step or you can go against it and try to salvage some semblence of a direct connection with the manual.

i agree that if you do go with the step, learning to use the paddles would be the only thing to do. This is the advice i gave someone in anther thread that asked "what's there fun to do with the auto?" But I don't understand, why did you go with the step in the first place? I mean gear selection is fun, especially when you're at high rpms in the twisties. But, to me, shifting a manual is fun all the time.

[ManMachine]

In a relationship between the man (or the woman) and the machine, the man designs and builds the machine, controls the machine, and enjoys the machine.

[JCtx]

There's nothing electronic on a manual transmission (not the automated manuals, like SMG, DSG, etc). Some people will never get the joy of driving a nice manual car.
If somebody likes autos better, all the power to them, but don't tell us it's more involved, as requiring more skill than driving a manual, because it's not. A manual is always challenging you to drive better (perfect take-offs, perfect downshifts, etc. You never get bored driving, but I can see how many people just don't want that level of involvement in their driving. They rather 'relax' and let their auto trannies do the shifting for them. Well, we relax by doing the opposite. It's all a matter of preference; we're not debating that.

I was the first to say most modern autos (including automated manuals) have a competitive advantage over manuals, so let's drop that argument. Later gang.
JC

[IUpod]

Back to the original question of comparison....I had just test-driven an R32 and a TT 3.2 both (obviously) with DSG right before I drove the 135i with paddles.

I have to say that when I drove the VW and the Audi, I was very disappointed with the DSG. Knowing it is often hailed as the best system of it's kind, I expected more. Shifts were quick enough but I found it tricky to shift smoothly (without the corresponding footwork I'm used to.) Moreover, the tactile feel of the tiny clicky plastic paddles (tabs I think is a better description) wasn't much more significant than hitting the buttons atop a Playstation controller to shift. After driving both I was resigned to staying with a manual in whatever I bought.

Then I went to drive the 135i and threw a fit when the sole demo was steptronic. For whatever reason, though, in the 1 I found shifting with the paddles to be fantastically fun. Initially confused by the push/pull configuration and R and L doing the same, once I sorted that it was great. The auto function honestly will not interfere until it absolutely must when revs dip around 1k - certainly no earlier than the DSG does. Shifts happen at least as quick as with the DSG and downshifts I felt featured much better blip/rev-matching. Much smoother than the DSG. The bigger paddles feel much better/significant to tug at. At least initially, it was very fun to drive and I had renewed faith in alternative clutchless transmissions. I thought it was much better than a DSG despite what many others on here say.

That said, the engine in the 135 is a whole category beyond the power you get in an R32 or TT. I wonder how much this swayed my perception of the transmissions' responsiveness.

After driving a 335 stick with it's rubbery, long throws and light clutch which was pretty much no fun compared to my STi, I came very close to ordering the Step/paddles. When it all came down to it, I wussed out, though, and switched to a manual. I was just too nervous that whereas it was great fun now, I may be bored with the paddles in a year and I know I love driving a stick.

[mateo]

Originally Posted by IUpod

Back to the original question of comparison....I had just test-driven an R32 and a TT 3.2 both (obviously) with DSG right before I drove the 135i with paddles.

I have to say that when I drove the VW and the Audi, I was very disappointed with the DSG. Knowing it is often hailed as the best system of it's kind, I expected more. Shifts were quick enough but I found it tricky to shift smoothly (without the corresponding footwork I'm used to.) Moreover, the tactile feel of the tiny clicky plastic paddles (tabs I think is a better description) wasn't much more significant than hitting the buttons atop a Playstation controller to shift. After driving both I was resigned to staying with a manual in whatever I bought.

Then I went to drive the 135i and threw a fit when the sole demo was steptronic. For whatever reason, though, in the 1 I found shifting with the paddles to be fantastically fun. Initially confused by the push/pull configuration and R and L doing the same, once I sorted that it was great. The auto function honestly will not interfere until it absolutely must when revs dip around 1k - certainly no earlier than the DSG does. Shifts happen at least as quick as with the DSG and downshifts I felt featured much better blip/rev-matching. Much smoother than the DSG. The bigger paddles feel much better/significant to tug at. At least initially, it was very fun to drive and I had renewed faith in alternative clutchless transmissions. I thought it was much better than a DSG despite what many others on here say.

That said, the engine in the 135 is a whole category beyond the power you get in an R32 or TT. I wonder how much this swayed my perception of the transmissions' responsiveness.

After driving a 335 stick with it's rubbery, long throws and light clutch which was pretty much no fun compared to my STi, I came very close to ordering the Step/paddles. When it all came down to it, I wussed out, though, and switched to a manual. I was just too nervous that whereas it was great fun now, I may be bored with the paddles in a year and I know I love driving a stick.

Very well put. I'm on the fence myself. The A/T was a dream to drive. I drove the stick too, and it was quite nice. I still don't know what I will end up with. I still have some time because I have a car that has to go before my 1 can be ordered, so we will see.

[randomizer]

I use the paddles almost exclusively in the city. I was all set to "flip" the left paddle tonight according to various forum posts I've seen (pop the airbag off - carefully after the battery disconnect, switch the push/pull wires) so I can just shift with pulls, down on the left and the default up on the right.

But - does the 135 still have the radio code business that I will have to enter after disconnecting the battery? I haven't seen the code anywhere and would like to know before I bug my CA.

[gizmo]

Anyone who has "test drove" an audi/vw with a dsg and actually compares it to the steptronic needs to go on another "test drive". I owned a dsg for 30k miles and must say that it is by far the best auto I've ever driven - hands down.

Try not to compare the engine, because it probably will not stack up against the N54 - Just think about the transmission, it really is pretty impressive.

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by IUpod

Back to the original question of comparison....I had just test-driven an R32 and a TT 3.2 both (obviously) with DSG right before I drove the 135i with paddles.

I have to say that when I drove the VW and the Audi, I was very disappointed with the DSG. Knowing it is often hailed as the best system of it's kind, I expected more. Shifts were quick enough but I found it tricky to shift smoothly (without the corresponding footwork I'm used to.) Moreover, the tactile feel of the tiny clicky plastic paddles (tabs I think is a better description) wasn't much more significant than hitting the buttons atop a Playstation controller to shift. After driving both I was resigned to staying with a manual in whatever I bought.

Then I went to drive the 135i and threw a fit when the sole demo was steptronic. For whatever reason, though, in the 1 I found shifting with the paddles to be fantastically fun. Initially confused by the push/pull configuration and R and L doing the same, once I sorted that it was great. The auto function honestly will not interfere until it absolutely must when revs dip around 1k - certainly no earlier than the DSG does. Shifts happen at least as quick as with the DSG and downshifts I felt featured much better blip/rev-matching. Much smoother than the DSG. The bigger paddles feel much better/significant to tug at. At least initially, it was very fun to drive and I had renewed faith in alternative clutchless transmissions. I thought it was much better than a DSG despite what many others on here say.

That said, the engine in the 135 is a whole category beyond the power you get in an R32 or TT. I wonder how much this swayed my perception of the transmissions' responsiveness.

After driving a 335 stick with it's rubbery, long throws and light clutch which was pretty much no fun compared to my STi, I came very close to ordering the Step/paddles. When it all came down to it, I wussed out, though, and switched to a manual. I was just too nervous that whereas it was great fun now, I may be bored with the paddles in a year and I know I love driving a stick.

congrats on wussing out. at first its like "paddles, just like f1" and then you're using the paddles only when you're in a "performance driving situation" and then your just not using the paddles and letting the slushbox do the work, in "S" of course.

my g35 had a heavy clutch and the stick had a direct linkage and you really felt the car through it. but I don't mind the soft clutch and the shifter feels way smoother. it seems just as fun, especially now that i got used to it. I test drove an 07 sti, and i wasn't blown away by the manual really. then i test drove an s2000 and i almost bought the car for the tranny alone.

[plien69]

Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky

Not so. When the torque converter is locked, it's locked. And with this version of the Step xmission, it locks around 1050 RPM and stays locked. I've been an MT guy most of my driving life, but I find no advantage to an MT over the Step in the 135/335/535 (have driven all 3 within the past month) other than saving a few bucks.

For those who relish the joys and beauty of shifts perfectly executed: try driving. More fun than shifting. Gear selection is an art. Gear changing is a mechanical exercise increasingly better performed by machinery. Luddites were 19th century. Manual transmissions are looking more and more like 'so 20th century.'

Yes, when the TC is locked, I agree. It's just that you never know when it's going to lock. I submit that it's not always at 1050 RPM, that it depends on a variety of factors, and therefore throttle vs. engine response is not linear and by definition inconsistent when compared to a manual. Also, there seems to be less engine braking with a Step than there would be with a MT. The TC lockup algorithm may be releasing lock under deceleration.

I say this as an owner of a 135i with a Steptronic transmission with 3300 miles under my belt, having come from an E46 M3 SMG, and having driven manuals for 20 years. It's my opinion that the Steptronic, as nice as it is (and I do believe it is a great transmission; it has exceeded my expectations), still does not offer the "connected throttle" feeling that a MT does.

[IUpod]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

congrats on wussing out. at first its like "paddles, just like f1" and then you're using the paddles only when you're in a "performance driving situation" and then your just not using the paddles and letting the slushbox do the work, in "S" of course.

my g35 had a heavy clutch and the stick had a direct linkage and you really felt the car through it. but I don't mind the soft clutch and the shifter feels way smoother. it seems just as fun, especially now that i got used to it. I test drove an 07 sti, and i wasn't blown away by the manual really. then i test drove an s2000 and i almost bought the car for the tranny alone.

The F1 allure is indeed what I like about the paddles. I'm pretty sure I'd use them all the time, though, because I'm one of those stubborn people who delights in ignoring impracticalities. That's why I'm getting a RWD car living atop a snowy mountain. I love being told I'm crazy. But yeah, I don't want to be stuck convincing myself I am still glad I got paddles.

The STi stock shifting was only fair but mine actually had the obligatory aftermarket SS kit which put it close to S2000 territory but yes - no car touches an S2000 as far as the stock shifter goes. I shopped those, too. I love the car and my dad has one but the little thing needs some damn torque! The engine of the 135i made me forget how great the S2000 was to shift.

One other note, I did go drive an M3 SMG last week for comparison. It was ok but I didn't really like it that much better than the step. The big difference is that shifts become much more violent but are they really faster...? It felt more "racecar" than "video game" in the 135 but not necessarily more fun.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by IUpod

Shifts were quick enough but I found it tricky to shift smoothly (without the corresponding footwork I'm used to.)

Then you don't understand the sytem well enough to operate as intended. It's not completely mindless. Throttle position counts toward soothness, as well as other variables. No slushbox will outperform a dual clutch system...period. Not to mention, not having the paddles of the Step perform separate functions goes against the world standard which makes the driving experience far less intuitive.

[WhiteOne]

Using the paddles in normal everyday driving is just a waste of gasoline isn't it? The step in "D" will get you much better mpg.
If you are shifting with the paddles all the time, you probably should have gotten the 6MT. Kind of defeats the purpose of having an auto to me. But just my opinion. Drive however you like.

[IUpod]

Originally Posted by Balls

Then you don't understand the sytem well enough to operate as intended. It's not completely mindless. Throttle position counts toward soothness, as well as other variables.

Thanks for that, friend. In stating "Shifts were quick enough but I found it tricky to shift smoothly (without the corresponding footwork I'm used to.)" wasn't I admitting to exactly that fact? I have no doubt an owner can operate it smoothly but it was difficult to get involved and focus on the subtleties of the throttle operation in anticipation of a well-timed but ultimately disappointing process of a little click of a plastic tab.

The Step by comparison was more fun maybe because it was more mindless with torque to spare everywhere. The tug of the paddle actually rewarded you with more regardless of timing because there is so much more power in the first place. I think I admitted that may be the main difference in my preference of the Step system. Didn't require much analysis, just fun to downshift and go. I'd probably waste a lot of gas with it.

The argument that we who prefer a clutch are cavemen clutching the past and ignorant of the fact that the computer can apply it more effectively may as well apply here as well. If the computer can do he clutchwork but the DSG is more dependent on the driver to apply the appropriate amount of throttle to shift smoothly, then isn't the computer also smart enough to intervene further still with the superior rev-matching and and ultimately smoother operation found in the Step? The DSG may require more of the driver's attention for seamless operation and therefore, I guess, could be said to be more involving than the Step but the BMW system was notably more fun to drive.

[MVF4Rrider]

^^ The Step could only be more fun if the motor was making it such. If you compare the gearboxes only (point of the thread) DSG is far more fun if you like ultra quick seamless shifts while on the throttle whether pointed straight or pulling lateral g's. Because it's a dual clutch system, the next gear (up or down) is only pre-selected (therefore fast upon execution) when you drive in such a way to for the system to anticipate the next shift. Outside the basic paramaters it's not smooth nor quick.

I can tell you that my DSG TT was way more fun to drive (exponential understatement) than my 135i. My TT had plenty of enough power (250 hp), and actually the right amount that I could exploit to the limit which I did daily. Sure the 135i feels good with the low end torque, but the DSG with quattro has huge advantages in drive, tractability, and ability to keep the rpms at an optimum for the given situation. I think if you erase the warm sensation the N54 gave you the rest of your argument goes to pot. Step is no DSG, which is the point of this thread as stated earlier.

I can't wait to try the M-DCT at some point. That coupled with the M V8 has got to be incredible. I had one on order but changed it to a Z4 M Coupe. I don't need another 4 seat coupe and I leaned toward the M3 just because of the M-DCT. But in the end I decided to have a 2 seat brute of a coupe, and spend half the savings on Brembos, KW V3 coilovers and lightweight wheels!

[Rubber Ducky]

FYI: http://www.autospies.com/news/NEW-BM...mission-30183/

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by Rubber Ducky

FYI: http://www.autospies.com/news/NEW-BM...mission-30183/

There are always problems with new technologies and complicated hardware. The keyword in F1 is reliability. Luckily I never had any problems with my DSG, but I kept the service schedule religiously.

[yacoub]

Originally Posted by sluday

So steptronic is about the same as Audi/VW's tiptronic tranny?

Yes. They are traditional automatic transmissions with some gear control functionality for the driver. Steptronic and Tiptronic.

DSG (now called S-tronic), DCT, etc, are true dual-clutch automanuals, and the most advanced type of transmission available in consumer automobiles. They are the future, or an iteration of it.

SMG is essentially a manual without a clutch pedal and only shifts sequentially. It's an oddball iteration that came before dual-clutch automated manual technology.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by yacoub

It's an oddball iteration that came before dual-clutch automated manual technology.

SMG came before DSG in production cars, but DSG has been around for a while in Audi rally cars. Since the 70s I believe???

[plien69]

Originally Posted by IUpod

The DSG may require more of the driver's attention for seamless operation and therefore, I guess, could be said to be more involving than the Step but the BMW system was notably more fun to drive.

Well, for many enthusiasts, involving == fun. Less involving == less fun. Also, for many enthusiasts, smoothness in and of itself does not equal fun. The act of trying to make it smooth is the fun part.