Any reason to get in-stock 2009 vs. ordering 2010?

[Absorber]

Originally Posted by escobar929

the only reason i have not ordered it yet is cause he will not tell me a price, even though the 2010 prices have already been posted. i told him i will not place my order until we had settled on a price, to which he said he would get back to me as soon as he found out the 2010 prices

Just have him draft up something in writing that says they agree to sell you the car $XXX over invoice price. That's what I did. Invoice is invoice. They can't fudge that.

[singular]

Originally Posted by Absorber

Just have him draft up something in writing that says they agree to sell you the car $XXX over invoice price. That's what I did. Invoice is invoice. They can't fudge that.

Some dealers will try to include MACO and training as invoice. For example, even people on this board can't really agree on what's invoice.

You may be better off getting the "out-the-door" price on paper, all fees, taxes, etc. included. This will make sure there are no surprises at closing time.

[MOCKBA]

You can always refuse to sign final papers and get your deposit back. I wouldn't insist on signing a particular margin over invoice. When car has arrived, some rebates can be available and so on, so your signed deal can look bad.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by singular

Some dealers will try to include MACO and training as invoice. For example, even people on this board can't really agree on what's invoice.

You may be better off getting the "out-the-door" price on paper, all fees, taxes, etc. included. This will make sure there are no surprises at closing time.

So dealers should potentially eat $400-600 in mandatory fees? Invoice pricing is invoice pricing. The fees charged on top of that vary from region to region. MACO is probably more in the NYC area because the cost of add space is greater than that of midwest states.

People don't complain about destination charges because they are a cost of doing business. It's the same as MACO and Training fees. You pay them because the dealer has to pay them.

[singular]

Originally Posted by singular

Some dealers will try to include MACO and training as invoice. For example, even people on this board can't really agree on what's invoice.

You may be better off getting the "out-the-door" price on paper, all fees, taxes, etc. included. This will make sure there are no surprises at closing time.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

So dealers should potentially eat $400-600 in mandatory fees? Invoice pricing is invoice pricing. The fees charged on top of that vary from region to region. MACO is probably more in the NYC area because the cost of add space is greater than that of midwest states.

People don't complain about destination charges because they are a cost of doing business. It's the same as MACO and Training fees. You pay them because the dealer has to pay them.

I think you made my point exactly. The definition of invoice varies from person to person.

BTW, a lot of dealers charge or try to charge MACO, not just the NYC area. My paperwork shows both MACO and training, but it was never part of our negotiation and it didn't change the price I paid.

In the end the dealer writes up the bill of sale as he sees fit. The important thing is to ensure that the bottom line is what you negotiated. That's why getting a fully itemized out-the-door price is useful.

So, since you included MACO+training in your definition of invoice, and I didn't, by your definition it seems that I paid about invoice for my 1er via the fax/email method, while you paid invoice+$700 by taking the time to have a personal conversation with the salesman. Who got the better deal? I guess it might depend on whether you got a date out of the salesman or have a new drinking buddy.

Actually I did even better. At the time of delivery (March) BMW had a two-months free financing deal. So, in the end I actually paid invoice MINUS $1500.

How can they do this and stay in business? Because there is a lot more wiggle room and profit than "invoice" will lead you to believe.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

So dealers should potentially eat $400-600 in mandatory fees? Invoice pricing is invoice pricing. The fees charged on top of that vary from region to region. MACO is probably more in the NYC area because the cost of add space is greater than that of midwest states.

People don't complain about destination charges because they are a cost of doing business. It's the same as MACO and Training fees. You pay them because the dealer has to pay them.

That doesn't mean you can't negotiate based on a final price. It's not my concern at all what costs the dealer incurs to sell me a car, only the check I'm writing when I pick it up.

I don't care where they put the costs, as long as the bottom line is where I want it. Invoice is meaningless to me when it comes time to actually write the check. If the dealer makes more money by selling the car for less money and then adding stuff after the fact, that's fine as long as the bottom line is where it's supposed to be.

[singular]

OP: if you're interested in how a lot of people on this board used the fax/email approach to get a great deal on their 1er, see:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209828

whether or not you negotiate your deal via fax/email or in person at the dealership, there's a really great article at edmunds.com on the inside scoop of negotiating with car-dealers:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/page001.html

[amdmaxx]

Supersport might be announced soon (maybe Frankfurt) and 2010 probably wont have HPFP issues, BMW wouldnt want to spend more money replacing those, I am sure some behind the scene part chances were introduced..

[abisson]

HPHF = ?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

Supersport might be announced soon (maybe Frankfurt) and 2010 probably wont have HPFP issues, BMW wouldnt want to spend more money replacing those, I am sure some behind the scene part chances were introduced..

If they had a fix for it they would be installing the new parts for the pissed off customers who are already on their third and fourth pumps. There's no good reason to think they've fixed it now when they've got four model years having failures.

[SJ]

Originally Posted by Absorber

What KingOfJericho said, but I took a slightly different tack.

I called up my CA and got his best first offer. It was high. Then I called up a competitor and asked them to beat my CA's offer. The competitor undercut my CA by a lot. Then I called my CA back and told him of their competitor's offer and gave him a number that he had to beat the competitor's offer by. My CA called me back 30 minutes later and said we had a deal. It took me about an hour of phone time beyond the afternoon I spent with my CA doing test drives and looking through left over 2009 available inventory to try to find something that matched what I wanted (nothing came close so I ordered a 2010).

I won't say what I got my car ordered for, except that I haven't yet seen anyone post that they've gotten a better deal on a 2010.

Why won't you share with the forum what you got your car ordered for? The more info we have the more we all benefit. I'm very curious, especially how some folks include MACO, Training, Documetion in their view of "invoice' and some don't, and so what it means to pay a certain amount "over" invoice" varies quite a bit. In fact the breakdown on invoice, MACO, Fees, etc, and final out-the-door price is something we should all share in detail, IMO.

BTW, what is "MACO"? I know they're listing training as $180 for 2010, and each dealer has their own version of documentation or "processing" fee. I think Jeremy mentioned that dealer probably have wiggle room to show on their invoices that the customer paid less for the car, and they got all their fees. It's probably a money shift battle between dealer and BMW corporate.

I also agree with the comment that there's much more wiggle room and profit in the business that what it seems based on "invoice" pricing. The fact that everyone and his grandmother has all the "dealer invoice" pricing for everything in the industry means that all the real business is done behind that somehow. I can assure you that dealers are not just making $500 bucks on a $50,000 product. That's 1% gross margin. If you think any business is surviving on 1% gross margins, then I've got a bridge to sell you. I think the reason these "invoice" prices are public because it moves the business forward, makes sales, and de-traumatizes customers.

[KingOfJericho]

There is something called dealer holdback. Figure maybe 1-3% below invoice, however BMW does not do this.

See below:

http://www.carbuytip.com/car-buying-...holdbacks.html

Originally Posted by http://autos.aol.com/article/dealer-holdback

Dealer Holdback

Dealer holdback is a complex system of payments made to the dealer from the car manufacturer which enhance the dealer's ability to stock his inventory with lots of shiny new models. The dealer finances his forecourt purchases through a bank or his dealership's finance unit, while the manufacturer likely will pick up the interest charges for the first 90 days a vehicle sits on the lot (the holdback, which can work out from anywhere from a few hundred dollars to a thousand or more).

If a dealer sells a car within the 90-day period, often they can bank all of the holdback (the full interest charge has been wrapped into the invoice or MSRP price of the car). The dealer pays the price of a new car -- the invoice -- to the factory when they order it, not when they sell it. If a car stays on the forecourt for just a week, the holdback can add up to serious profit for the dealer. Also note that, if the car has been sitting 90 days or more, all of the holdback has essentially been exhausted by the interest payments on dealer's initial loan to acquire the car.

Which Carmakers Offer Holdback?

Many luxury marquee manufacturers don't offer holdback -- including heavyweight imports Audi, BMW, Porsche and Jaguar -- while standard holdback for most other carmakers runs anywhere from 1% (Volvo) to 3% of MSRP at the top end (Honda, Dodge and most GM imprints). Mercedes-Benz breaks the rule for luxury importers by offering holdback rates of 3%. Ford offers incentives totaling 4.25% to its certified Blue Oval dealers (manufacturers increasingly offer higher rates to preferred dealers). Hyundai rates sit at about 2% but sources tell me the Korean carmaker has increased that substantially this year. Note that holdback is offered on MSRP and not the lower rate for invoice.

[themyst]

I lucked out on my end. I found a semi-stripper 135i in 6MT almost exactly the way I wanted! (power/heated leatherette seats, ipod, sport package only). I wanted the comfort access, but after owning the car, it's not the biggest deal in the world (especially since i've never actually used comfort access before)....

[Ajumepke]

Originally Posted by SJ

Why won't you share with the forum what you got your car ordered for? The more info we have the more we all benefit. I'm very curious, especially how some folks include MACO, Training, Documetion in their view of "invoice' and some don't, and so what it means to pay a certain amount "over" invoice" varies quite a bit. In fact the breakdown on invoice, MACO, Fees, etc, and final out-the-door price is something we should all share in detail, IMO.

BTW, what is "MACO"? I know they're listing training as $180 for 2010, and each dealer has their own version of documentation or "processing" fee. I think Jeremy mentioned that dealer probably have wiggle room to show on their invoices that the customer paid less for the car, and they got all their fees. It's probably a money shift battle between dealer and BMW corporate.

I also agree with the comment that there's much more wiggle room and profit in the business that what it seems based on "invoice" pricing. The fact that everyone and his grandmother has all the "dealer invoice" pricing for everything in the industry means that all the real business is done behind that somehow. I can assure you that dealers are not just making $500 bucks on a $50,000 product. That's 1% gross margin. If you think any business is surviving on 1% gross margins, then I've got a bridge to sell you. I think the reason these "invoice" prices are public because it moves the business forward, makes sales, and de-traumatizes customers.

The simplest definition that I could find for MACO is the cost that Car Manufacturer charges the dealer for Advertising support that the Car Manufacturer expends in Marketing the car. Car Maker ===> Dealer ===> Pass cost onto you.

It's different from region to region.

[escobar929]

this was a great article i came across
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...4&page=1&pp=22

[Absorber]

Originally Posted by SJ

Why won't you share with the forum what you got your car ordered for?

Well, my CA asked me not to go posting it on message boards. So I won't. But it's not that far under what others have posted. "Invoice" in my deal does include MACO ($200) and training ($180).

[hoss]

Thanks for all the amazing info. The edmunds article posted was great and the lawyers posting on the E90 board posted some really good information.

I'm going to decide what to do pretty soon here. I'm certainly leaning towards ordering, but I want to check out the Space Grey / Black interior / no iPod car this weekend, and another local dealer told me he has a car arriving any day that has all the options I want but is Black Sapphire Metallic with black interior.

I also emailed bmwsonline.com but I haven't gotten a response yet (it's been about 36 hours), so I'm not sure how legit they are. If I do decide to order I will attempt to do so at the local dealership, and if I can't get a deal around $500 over invoice then I will start sending emails to the other dealerships in the Bay Area until I find one that will. Ordering will give me time to get rid of my Audi anyways, since I don't want to trade it in.

[M34lnch]

Originally Posted by kalvar

I'm confident the 2010 will not have the HPFP problem (guaranteed problem with ALL 2009s sooner or later); plus LCDs, spruced up suspension; more choice of options; better overall re-sale/coverage...and just an extra 2 month wait maybe? No brainer really; Good luck regardless of your choice; Cheers!

Spruced up suspension? How is the suspension changing for 2010 on a 135i coupe?

[hoss]

I was at the dealership tonight talking with the CA about the '09 they had in stock, and he mentioned that the 2010's with iDrive would have much improved voice recognition.

The CA was good. Very low pressure and encouraged me to custom order a car instead of settling. But then he did say he felt the dealer add on iPod kit was better than the factory installed kit. What is the exact difference?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by hoss

Wow, I had no clue that the iPod integration from the dealer was different than the factory one. That is a deal breaker as far as I am concerned.

I'll go take a look at the car on Saturday that they have in stock, but as of right now, learning about the iPod integration, I will be learning towards ordering.

Hey you're coming from the exact same car I did, a 2006 A4 Sline.
Did you have it "chipped"? It really added some very nice power.

You'll find the 135i power to be amazing.
The ride won't be as nice, as the 135i will actually lift off the ground on some bumps that the A4 would hit, but absord while keeping the tires on the ground. Overall the handling has a noticeable better grip in transitional handling with a bit less body roll. Most people don't know how good the Sline A4 was in handling, ride, steering, and braking. The steering in the 135i isn't as responsive off center as the A4, but still very precise. There's just a bit of "numbness" off center, and a bit lazy in response.
But the POWER is AWESOME, and you'll love the low end response.

MPG isn't as good either even when driven normally. For my regular driving my 135i is about 3-4mpg lower than my A4 day to day, and about 5-7mpg lower on highway.
If you're looking for the same seat comfort as the A4, then test the standard seats first, and then the sport seats. I lOVED the sport seats in my 325i, but I'm not so positive on the 135i sport seats. They look great, and are 100% leather, but they don't seem to hold me in as well as the 325i seats, and are not as comfortable as the A4 seats for daily driving.

If you're getting the manual trans, shifting is about the same though a bit long in throw. If you're getting the automatic the it'll be a night and day difference compared to the tiptronic auto in the A4. The sportronic shifts about as fast as a very good manual driver would. It's nothing like the lazy molasses feel of the tip tranny.

Space Gray with coral interior is very nice. That's what I have and people really love it as do I. The color is a shade darker than the quartz gray of my A4.
Stick with the standard HiFi, don't spend the money on the "upgrade".
The base/stock system is much better than the base A4 system.
Spend the money on upgrading the underseat subs. Even with the stock amp and component speakers, the subs add real bass and sub bass that really improves the overall sound quite a bit, and you'll have money left over to add an amp or upgrade the stock comps if you like.
The "upgrade" isn't worth the cost imo. With the added subs and stock everything else, my sound is every bit as good as the upgrade, but I have better bass still.

The '10's should be hitting the dealers by next month, so why not just order now and get the options you want. The lease deals are excellent right now, pretty much the same as when I got my 135i in early July.
If you order now, you should be able to lock in the current lease rates, and if they are better when your car comes in then you can use those rates.
Given that the '10 will be a newer model year, the residuals should be better, but the money factors may not be. Still, given how strong 1 sales have been for BMW lease rates should be as good as the 09's. I don't see them getting worse, and they may be a bit better.

IMO, unless the dealer is willing to go at least $1000 UNDER invoice, then go with the '10, and still negotiate a $500 over invoice deal. Just remember though, every new model year will usually go up at least $500 in base price.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Ajumepke

"Technically" they're supposed to take a deposit. But my Sales Agent didn't take one. I didn't put any money down until I was picking up the car.

When you go in:
1. Make sure you factor all known costs into the agreed-upon price
2. Ask him if there are additional costs that's not being factored - usually they like to add in MACO or Document prep cost - afterwards
3. Find out what the document prep cost is (if there is one) - if it's over 50 bucks call BS. Some posts on the board have listed 400 bucks for document prep. DO NOT agree to that.
4. They will check your credit. This also means they will ask for info about your current employment/work address/phone etc
5. Driver's license.
6. Proof of insurance on current vehicle.
7. Notepad to write down any possible important info.
8. If you're interested in the extended Maintenance plan (2 years 100k miles) - find out the price up front. I made the mistake of not looking into this until afterwards. They might charge more than what is listed on BMWUSA - but this is also negotiable. You don't have to sign up for this @ the point of sale - but price of the service might go up later.
9. Do the same as #8 for Tire/Wheel protection plan - if you're interested.


Bonus - I asked them to throw in the All weather floor mat for free. (they agreed) You might be able to see what accessory you might want and see if you can get it for cheaper/or tossed in for free.


This is by no means comprehensive - just off the top of my head. Feel free to add in anything I'm missing.

Very good suggestions.
One thing though, doc fee over $50 is not BS in every state.
In Illinois there is a standard doc feel that all dealers charge. It's high imo, something around $130-$150, but all the dealers charge the same by law, at least in the greater Chicago area. All 4 Chicago area dealers quoted the same doc fee.

I ended up going with my local Indiana dealer, and the doc fee was about $55, so I save a few bucks there. Also, my local dealer was $100 higher than my best Illinois dealer, but the doc fee was lower, and I negotiated for a full new set of all season mats and a full set of mudguards that I installed. With all that, I actually beat the "lower" Illinois dealer by about $250. My dealer was about $250 over actual MACO invoice.

There is a psychological aspect to coming into the dealerships. They do take you more seriously as you took the time to come out. Plus, when they see you in person they feel they have a better shot at the deal, and that's when you can negotiate the little extras in your favor and save a few hundred dollars. The BEST deal is made when you are actually ready and willing to buy. Up until that point you are shopping best quoted offers, not the final negotiated deal.

Internet/email is a great way to start, but you need to visit at least a couple of dealers in person for the best deals.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by singular

Some dealers will try to include MACO and training as invoice. For example, even people on this board can't really agree on what's invoice.

You may be better off getting the "out-the-door" price on paper, all fees, taxes, etc. included. This will make sure there are no surprises at closing time.

MACO and "training" fee is part of actual invoice, the dealers are not lying about that.

The only difference you will see is for the "ad" fee portion. Dealers in larger, generally metro areas, will pay slightly higher fee's for that. The dealers do actually get charged for that, and that's why it is part of invoice.
That's why actual invoice can vary, but by very little under $100, as it depends on the market. Still, it's not a large variant. In all, invoice is invoice from dealer to dealer in the same area. If you go over 100 miles away from that market or to different states the actual invoice can change a little, not much.

When you negotiate around invoice, that means MACO and training fees are included. If the dealer tries to add the MACO and training fee again, then they are sneaky and you should go somewhere else.

The only other fees that are legit and NOT invoice are the "doc fee", license/tag fees, "drive away" sticker fees, which is charged by some counties, and sales tax. If leasing, some states will charge FULL sales tax on the whole selling price of the vehicle. Some states, like Indiana, only charge tax on the monthy payment not the whole selling price.
Depending on your state, that's another benefit to leasing.

Also, floor mats are still not included in the price of a BMW. That one pisses me off. I can't believe that BMW, or any other car maker, would charge extra for freakin floor mats. I would include the floor mats in the deal, make sure you ask for them