Any reason to get in-stock 2009 vs. ordering 2010?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by singular

I think you made my point exactly. The definition of invoice varies from person to person.

BTW, a lot of dealers charge or try to charge MACO, not just the NYC area. My paperwork shows both MACO and training, but it was never part of our negotiation and it didn't change the price I paid.

In the end the dealer writes up the bill of sale as he sees fit. The important thing is to ensure that the bottom line is what you negotiated. That's why getting a fully itemized out-the-door price is useful.

So, since you included MACO+training in your definition of invoice, and I didn't, by your definition it seems that I paid about invoice for my 1er via the fax/email method, while you paid invoice+$700 by taking the time to have a personal conversation with the salesman. Who got the better deal? I guess it might depend on whether you got a date out of the salesman or have a new drinking buddy.

Actually I did even better. At the time of delivery (March) BMW had a two-months free financing deal. So, in the end I actually paid invoice MINUS $1500.

How can they do this and stay in business? Because there is a lot more wiggle room and profit than "invoice" will lead you to believe.

Actually, you don't seem to understand what "invoice" price on a BMW is.
MACO and training are not "added". It's part of invoice.
You don't negotiate invoice without understanding or knowing what MACO and training fee are.

If you're dealer tries to add these fees after you've negotiated INVOICE pricing, then your dealer is sneaky and dishonest.
I wouldn't buy from a dealer that does that.

It's like saying sure I'll sell for invoice at $10k, then he adds delivery, MACO, training. You can't say I won't pay the extra delivery charge.
The dealer is lying to get you in there with his "invoice".
If you know what you're doing and you did your homework, then you know what the invoice is. You can even ask the dealer to show you the invoice.

Bottom line price is the bottom line. If the dealer tries to add beyond that, then he's lying, and you should walk away.
But, when you're negotiating bottom line price, then you better know what you're talking about. If a particular dealer is giving you an offer than seems too good to be true compared to the other 2 or 3 dealers, there is a reason for that.

Real invoice is not as varied as you claim it is. A low "claimed" invoice to get you in, is a sales tactic that bad dealers practice. That, however, doesn't change what invoice really is.

[David 12]

"Internet/email is a great way to start, but you need to visit at least a couple of dealers in person for the best deals."

Maybe in some cases but not all. I never go to the dealership to talk price. The key is to establish a relationship and build credibility (either via email, phone or in person) then you will hopefully get a mutually agreeable price.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That doesn't mean you can't negotiate based on a final price. It's not my concern at all what costs the dealer incurs to sell me a car, only the check I'm writing when I pick it up.

I don't care where they put the costs, as long as the bottom line is where I want it. Invoice is meaningless to me when it comes time to actually write the check. If the dealer makes more money by selling the car for less money and then adding stuff after the fact, that's fine as long as the bottom line is where it's supposed to be.

That's like throwing darts in the dark. I'd rather throw mine with the lights on so I can see the target.
I'm not busting your balls, and bottom line price is the important goal.
Still, having all the correct information up front keeps you armed and ready, so that you know when a salesperson is trying to pull something.

Real invoice should concern you, if you are using invoice pricing as the basis for your shopping and negotiating.
If you don't take invoice into account, then how do you know what to offer?
Knowing the actual costs helps so that you have a known price from which to work with.

Just because you give a final price offer doesn't mean invoice price isn't being considered in the deal.
If you don't care, fine. But, I'll guarantee you the dealer does as his sales manager will need to work from that number to decide if your offer is a good one. But, shopping blind like that means you're throwing numbers out and hoping to hit something, and if not, you're back again with a different number until you hit. That's like trying to win a fishing contest by casting over the whole lake while the guys who know where the fish are are reeling them in as you're driving around looking for the score.

Knowing the invoice gives you information with a solid base from which to work.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by David 12

"Internet/email is a great way to start, but you need to visit at least a couple of dealers in person for the best deals."

Maybe in some cases but not all. I never go to the dealership to talk price. The key is to establish a relationship and build credibility (either via email, phone or in person) then you will hopefully get a mutually agreeable price.

I agree, but as you say, it's good to establish a relationship and build credibility. In my view and experience, the best relationships are built in person.

I've made great deals on cars simply by doing internet shopping.
However, not all makes and dealers are the same. I find that with Audi, BMW, and the more "luxury" brands, in person seems to build a better relationship. It's probably due to the fact that these cars are not large volume sales cars, and the sales people at the more luxury brands tend to make their paychecks based on the buyers positive experience.
Buying a Kia or Mazda or Nissan is easier as an internet purchase.
I do very well with car buying and that's why I'm always doing deals for friends and family. It takes time, but it's fun for me, like a hobby. And it keeps my buying skills excercised

So, I agree that not every case is the same. Different tacts work in different circumstances for different people. If one has the time and inclination, try the different ways.

[David 12]

RPM90 - I am the same way as far as helping others buy cars. I was actually thinking about starting a car buying service someday. It is really amazing how many people are in the dark when it comes to buying a car!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by David 12

RPM90 - I am the same way as far as helping others buy cars. I was actually thinking about starting a car buying service someday. It is really amazing how many people are in the dark when it comes to buying a car!

Hey, it might be your calling.

[singular]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Actually, you don't seem to understand what "invoice" price on a BMW is.
MACO and training are not "added". It's part of invoice.
You don't negotiate invoice without understanding or knowing what MACO and training fee are.

If you're dealer tries to add these fees after you've negotiated INVOICE pricing, then your dealer is sneaky and dishonest.
I wouldn't buy from a dealer that does that.

It's like saying sure I'll sell for invoice at $10k, then he adds delivery, MACO, training. You can't say I won't pay the extra delivery charge.
The dealer is lying to get you in there with his "invoice".
If you know what you're doing and you did your homework, then you know what the invoice is. You can even ask the dealer to show you the invoice.

Bottom line price is the bottom line. If the dealer tries to add beyond that, then he's lying, and you should walk away.
But, when you're negotiating bottom line price, then you better know what you're talking about. If a particular dealer is giving you an offer than seems too good to be true compared to the other 2 or 3 dealers, there is a reason for that.

Real invoice is not as varied as you claim it is. A low "claimed" invoice to get you in, is a sales tactic that bad dealers practice. That, however, doesn't change what invoice really is.

There are other threads that argue about the definition of "invoice". But maybe the best way to avoid argument is for me to be more accurate: I based my offer only on the official BMW of North America, LLC Confidential Wholesale Price sheet. This includes destination, but does NOT include MACO and Training fees. So the offer I gave, the offer that was accepted, and the actual price I paid at closing was: wholesale price + $500 + tax.

The dealer didn't "add beyond" with MACO and training at closing, that would have changed the deal and I wouldn't have accepted it. He accounted for MACO and training in the cost itemization on the bill of sale. Since I offered him "invoice" + $500, he accounted for the MACO & training in the $500. In other words, I negotiated the deal without regard to MACO & training, and he paid for it out of his end.

You have to admit, I got a pretty sweet deal. And that was using the fax/email method from the comfort of my home on a rainy day in December. I had an email accept from the dealer I bought from within two hours of faxing my offer. No haggling involved. And the local dealer doesn't seem at all concerned about where I bought my 1er - I still get a loaner when I take my car in.

[hoss]

Hey Guys,

I've got a deal somewhat pending here using a lot of the great information in this thread. I sent out an email this morning to several dealers offering to pay invoice for the Invoice price + $500. The dealer I had been working with on the 2009 replied back and said:

"I don't know if I mentioned the other day, but I got promoted to Internet Sales Manager. So, I see your request, but you forgot that there's a Maco fee of $400 and a training fee of $180 that are on the wholesale invoice. The General Manager said he's going to take care of you so yes, we'll give it to you for $500 over our cost. When can you come by to place the order? I think the 09 I told you about is here as of tomorrow as well."

It looks like a couple of you had MACO and Training included and some didn't. What do you think.. decent deal? I haven't gotten a response back from any of the other dealerships yet.

[Ajumepke]

if you can get it included great. I didn't have a "training" fee so I don't know what that is about. (smells BS to me) - though mine had a 50$ document prep fee.

500 over Invoice +MACO+FEE sounds find to me.

[Angry3]

Originally Posted by escobar929

this was a great article i came across
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...4&page=1&pp=22

That post comes up from time to time, and there's some very good info in it. It's a shame he had to shroud it in a veil of self-important drivel. I'd like to see what a judge would do with some of his proposed lawsuits for things like charging a doc fee

One things for sure, we won't see him on 1Addicts anytime soon, there's not enough room in the passenger compartment of a 1 for his ego.

[xjet04]

Just to throw in my two cents, unless you can find exactly what you are looking for on a lot, order your car so you can have it exactly the way you want it. The wait is painful but a couple months of waiting outweighs years of regret. Get exactly what you want and none of what you don't.

[hoss]

I got another response from another dealer. Both the responses I got were from CA's that I had met in person looking at their in-stock 2009 cars...

"I will be happy to order and sell you a 2010 135Ci for $500 over our true Invoice cost and will show you the actual Invoice once I have your order in and can print a "Wholesale" Production Acknowledgement" off and accepted factory.

I need to calculate the order because there are fees that BMW adds to each of our invoices for training and
MACO (Marketing add on for Dealers From BMW for Regional Advertising). These charges don't show up on Edmonds or any of the national automotive web sites). Is that fair?

Let me know and I'll confirm your pricing and we'll take the next step to get your order into the Order Bank."

[singular]

Originally Posted by xjet04

Just to throw in my two cents, unless you can find exactly what you are looking for on a lot, order your car so you can have it exactly the way you want it. The wait is painful but a couple months of waiting outweighs years of regret. Get exactly what you want and none of what you don't.

+1.

On the other hand, if your willing to take a 2009 and you find one you really like, seems like you might be able to get a below-invoice deal once the 2010's start appearing.

[Angry3]

Originally Posted by singular

There are other threads that argue about the definition of "invoice". But maybe the best way to avoid argument is for me to be more accurate: I based my offer only on the official BMW of North America, LLC Confidential Wholesale Price sheet. This includes destination, but does NOT include MACO and Training fees. So the offer I gave, the offer that was accepted, and the actual price I paid at closing was: wholesale price + $500 + tax.

The dealer didn't "add beyond" with MACO and training at closing, that would have changed the deal and I wouldn't have accepted it. He accounted for MACO and training in the cost itemization on the bill of sale. Since I offered him "invoice" + $500, he accounted for the MACO & training in the $500. In other words, I negotiated the deal without regard to MACO & training, and he paid for it out of his end.

You have to admit, I got a pretty sweet deal. And that was using the fax/email method from the comfort of my home on a rainy day in December. I had an email accept from the dealer I bought from within two hours of faxing my offer. No haggling involved. And the local dealer doesn't seem at all concerned about where I bought my 1er - I still get a loaner when I take my car in.

I agree that you got a great deal. You were also dealing with a dealer that likely had plenty of convertible allocations in the dead of winter and was obviously very motivated to move one of them. Your dealer paid the training fee, and possibly the MACO fee out of pocket because he didn't feel he could pass it on to you and wanted a unit gone very badly at the time. Your influence and use of the fax method played a part in your deal, but it was far from the only reason it happened.

There is no "best" way to go about buying a car, anyone that says there is hasn't accounted for dozens of factors that influence the decision to purchase and the transaction prices of these cars in a given market at a given point in time.

[dubdemand]

Just picking up on the comments regarding wing mirrors on the 2010... I did a search and found this - I know it's a hatch and not available in the US but it does give you an idea about how potentialy fugly the mirrors could be! Fingers crossed my Coupe (due at the end of October) won't be cursed with these!!!

[Ajumepke]

Originally Posted by hoss

I need to calculate the order because there are fees that BMW adds to each of our invoices for training and
MACO (Marketing add on for Dealers From BMW for Regional Advertising). These charges don't show up on Edmonds or any of the national automotive web sites). Is that fair?

MACO is hard to calculate as it's different from region to region. It's not included into the car cost - and as far as I know dealers don't make money off of this - this is paid to BMW.

Again - I don't think I had the training fee so I'm not sure what that is about. Don't settle for a final quote without having MACO and doc prep fee factored into the quote.

Also finally - there is additional cost outside of the car - basically DMV registration for the car.

[singular]

Originally Posted by Angry3

I agree that you got a great deal. You were also dealing with a dealer that likely had plenty of convertible allocations in the dead of winter and was obviously very motivated to move one of them. Your dealer paid the training fee, and possibly the MACO fee out of pocket because he didn't feel he could pass it on to you and wanted a unit gone very badly at the time. Your influence and use of the fax method played a part in your deal, but it was far from the only reason it happened.

There is no "best" way to go about buying a car, anyone that says there is hasn't accounted for dozens of factors that influence the decision to purchase and the transaction prices of these cars in a given market at a given point in time.

I absolutely agree with you. There is no best way and everyone needs to use the approach to negotiation that they're most comfortable with.

No matter which approach you use or how good your negotiation skills are, the balance of supply and demand are going to rule.

[hoss]

It looks like I'm going to go in today and place my order and I'm pretty damn stoked.

This thread has been extremely useful. In the end I established contact with the CA in person and test drove the car and then negotiated the deal via email. It seemed to be the best option for me, and as a bonus the dealership is very close to my work, so if my HPFP fails, I can just drive straight there.

I'm comfortable and happy with the deal I will get, Invoice + $500 + MACO / Training, since these seem to be standard fees that BMW NA charges the dealership. It's still about $3K under MSRP!

[Absorber]

I think you got a good deal. Glad you are happy!

[hoss]

Got it ordered today. Now its time to wait!

[singular]

Originally Posted by hoss

Got it ordered today. Now its time to wait!

Congratulations. Nice choice of colors/options. Looks like you got a good deal.

The wait for a west-coast delivery will drive you crazy.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by singular

You have to admit, I got a pretty sweet deal. And that was using the fax/email method from the comfort of my home on a rainy day in December. I had an email accept from the dealer I bought from within two hours of faxing my offer. No haggling involved. And the local dealer doesn't seem at all concerned about where I bought my 1er - I still get a loaner when I take my car in.

I have to, and I do.
GREAT deal.