Sore subject - DSC off?

[mlhj83]

So for those who regularly drive on the road (not track) with DSC off and feel that that is the only way to learn about the car and be a better driver (or believe we have got by for decades with powerful cars before such systems existed) - please leave that for a quiet/familiar road or track - because if Tiff Needell and Steve Sutcliffe cannot beat/match DSC/ESP in an emergency situation (at regular speeds) where sudden manoeuvres are required, then almost everyone can't too.

[ozinaldo]

+1. Good videos to watch. Maybe everyone needs to have first hand experience (like I do) of how easy to loose control of a rwd car even if it is not pouring rain or ice and snow outside in order to really appreciate this. Keeping the DCS on or at least MDM mode on outside controlled environments is essential.

[MightyMouseTech]

Exactly. No flaggers out on the road to warm you of an oil patch, or even worse, coolant.

[Dackelone]

Good (PSA) stuff!

[shemeld_135]

thanks for info man!

[Zombie1]

No wonder why I can never find a Phoenix yellow e46 m3 there all covered in 8 feet of snow half way around the glob! but good video made me laugh

[ChrisBuer]

Good post! I've only ever turned my MDM mode on once, apart from that I leave the full system on all the time.

[Artemis]

------------------
"As standard: variable M differential lock, compound brakes, DSC with M Dynamic Mode, Servotronic
The BMW 1 Series M Coupe is fitted as standard with a variable M differential lock. This generates lock-up torque as required and completely variably up to 100%, thus providing for optimum traction on all road surfaces. The variable M differential lock responds to differences in rotational speeds in the right and left rear wheel, redirecting drive torque within a fraction of a second. So where there are significant differences in friction coefficients between the right and left rear wheel, for example, optimum traction and maximum propulsion power are ensured. The principle of the engine-speed-sensing M differential lock supports the dynamic qualities of rear-wheel drive both on slippery surfaces and when accelerating out of bends.
The M-specific compound high-performance brake system of the BMW 1 Series M Coupe provides impressive stability even under extreme stress, as well as being extremely light. The design principle of the brake system is derived from motor racing and guarantees excellent deceleration figures with significantly reduced heat sensitivity. Their inner-vented and perforated grey cast iron discs with a diameter of 360 millimetres at the front and 350 millimetres at the rear are linked to the aluminium disc chamber on a floating basis by means of cast-in premium steel pins.
In the BMW 1 Series M Coupe, power transmission to the rear wheels also provides the ideal basis for thrilling driving dynamics due to the consistent separation of drivetrain and steering functions. The rack-and-pinion steering is fitted with the hydraulic power steering system Servotronic which regulates its supportive effect in relation to road speed.
The driving stability control system DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) of the BMW 1 Series M Coupe includes such elements as the Antilock Brake System (ABS), an anti-slip control function (ASC), the brake assistant Dynamic Brake Control (DBC), a drive-off assistant, Cornering Brake Control (CBC), an anti-fading function and a dry brake function. In the wet or on slippery surfaces the driving stability system intervenes early on but discreetly so as to prevent oversteering. As an alternative to normal operating status, the driver can activate M Dynamic Mode (MDM) by means of a switch on the instrument panel, thereby raising the intervention threshold of the driving stability control system. This facilitates driving off on snow or loose sand by means of controlled slip. MDM also enables specifically applied, dynamic oversteering."
(source: BMW 1M Press Kit 2011 (international), pages 8-9 - http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...82&postcount=1)
------------------

BMW Safety: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...=4&view=Safety

Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...k_brake_system

Automatic Stability Control (ASC):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...bility_control

Cornering Brake Control (CBC):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t..._brake_control

Dynamic Brake Control (DBC):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t..._brake_control

Dynamic Stability Control (DSC):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...bility_control

Dynamic Traction Control (DTC):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...action_control

Electronic Stability Program (ESP):

Traction Control (TC):

Variable M Differential Lock (Differenzialsperre):
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...different_lock

[mlhj83]

This was one of my replies to the same post on m3post:

Originally Posted by dmk08

How is driving with it off any different then the mass of people driving cars without DSC in general at 70mph? I never turn it off just wondering.

No different of course, but the point is, if one has DSC, and if you are amongst pedestrians and cars, why risk an uncontrollable situation (regardless of skill). By all means, have fun when the time and place is right. But no one should be 'macho' and the videos above clearly show even top notch drivers cannot match stability systems at speeds that everyone does regularly. And I'm pretty certain those 2 drivers are more experienced then even the pro racing drivers here (no disrespect) - as far as I know, no one here is an ex-F1 driver or one that can match a F1 team test driver for lap time the first time out in a recent F1 car.

There is good reason why despite the rise in vehicle population in developed countries, collision rates have generally not gone in the same direction, despite increasingly powerful average cars - engineering and stability systems have a lot to do with it.

[hongounan]

Once after heavy rain, with DCS all off, I almost damaged my car...
Never turn it all off ever, always MDM... much safer with fun!

[lupoblu78]

impressive !! MDM for me !!

[BrokenVert]

But im a better driver than Tiff Needle...that guy didnt even get invited back to do new top gear, so he had to make up his own automotive show!


I dont even have an automotive show! So ha on him!

[ayao]

Originally Posted by hongounan

Once after heavy rain, with DCS all off, I almost damaged my car...
Never turn it all off ever, always MDM... much safer with fun!

Just keep in mind that it is possible to spin the car in the rain even with MDM, if you aren't careful with the throttle.

[Pete_vB]

The first video shows Steve intentionally losing control and then trying hard not to correct the slide. It shows the car can control itself, it doesn't show that he can't control the car.

Let's put the DSC safety issue in perspective. Will DSC make the car more controllable in many panic situations even with a good driver? Yes. Are there also some situations where DSC makes the car less controllable? Yes. Do either of the above drivers have issues with driving a car with DSC off on public roads? No.

Both drivers shown above are much faster on a closed course with DSC off, ie DSC is controlling the car largely by slowing it down. Which leads to the following fact: a good driver will be much safer with DSC off and driving 5 mph slower than DSC on and traveling faster.

There are many things besides slowing down that will make a car safer. Driver training is probably number #1, tires are probably #2. A poor driver with DSC on is less safe than a good one with DSC off. Driving in the winter with even great all-season tires and DSC on is much less safe than driving in winter with DSC off and a good set of winter tires. To a lesser extent the same goes for driving in summer using all seasons vs good summer tires.

If your goal is to drive as safely as possible you'll be an expert and cautious driver, nearly always have DSC on, you'll always drive at or below the speed limit, and you'll always have the best possible tires on your car. If you don't do all of these things you're compromising safety, your own and those around you, in some way. What's an "acceptable" compromise comes down to the driver.

I personally always drive with DSC off. I get regular drivers training (competing and instructing) and I always have great tires on for the conditions. In 30k miles I have never lost complete control of the 1M and spun, even on wet courses in autocross competition. For me DSC off is an acceptable compromise. I also know another 1M owner that spun his car into a curb a week after getting it when he switched DSC off. Clearly it's not an acceptable compromise for everyone.

Statistics show that SUVs in particular have gotten much, much safer over the years since DSC was made mandatory, roughly cutting the number of roll-over crashes in half. Most people in most cars should clearly keep DSC on. However unless you're a driving instructor, always drive around at or below the speed limit, and always use fresh ideal tires, please don't imply that my choice to take DSC off is unsafe and endangering others.

Originally Posted by ChrisBuer

Good post! I've only ever turned my MDM mode on once, apart from that I leave the full system on all the time.

Honestly man, get thee out to an autocross now! That's criminal.

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

The first video shows Steve intentionally losing control and then trying hard not to correct the slide. It shows the car can control itself, it doesn't show that he can't control the car.

Let's put the DSC safety issue in perspective. Will DSC make the car more controllable in many panic situations even with a good driver? Yes. Are there also some situations where DSC makes the car less controllable? Yes. Do either of the above drivers have issues with driving a car with DSC off on public roads? No.

Both drivers shown above are much faster on a closed course with DSC off, ie DSC is controlling the car largely by slowing it down. Which leads to the following fact: a good driver will be much safer with DSC off and driving 5 mph slower than DSC on and traveling faster.

There are many things besides slowing down that will make a car safer. Driver training is probably number #1, tires are probably #2. A poor driver with DSC on is less safe than a good one with DSC off. Driving in the winter with even great all-season tires and DSC on is much less safe than driving in winter with DSC off and a good set of winter tires. To a lesser extent the same goes for driving in summer using all seasons vs good summer tires.

If your goal is to drive as safely as possible you'll be an expert and cautious driver, nearly always have DSC on, you'll always drive at or below the speed limit, and you'll always have the best possible tires on your car. If you don't do all of these things you're compromising safety, your own and those around you, in some way. What's an "acceptable" compromise comes down to the driver.

I personally always drive with DSC off. I get regular drivers training (competing and instructing) and I always have great tires on for the conditions. In 30k miles I have never lost complete control of the 1M and spun, even on wet courses in autocross competition. For me DSC off is an acceptable compromise. I also know another 1M owner that spun his car into a curb a week after getting it when he switched DSC off. Clearly it's not an acceptable compromise for everyone.

Statistics show that SUVs in particular have gotten much, much safer over the years since DSC was made mandatory, roughly cutting the number of roll-over crashes in half. Most people in most cars should clearly keep DSC on. However unless you're a driving instructor, always drive around at or below the speed limit, and always use fresh ideal tires, please don't imply that my choice to take DSC off is unsafe and endangering others.


Honestly man, get thee out to an autocross now! That's criminal.

The last part of the first video clearly shows Steve trying to regain control of the car after inducing an avoidance manoeuvre.

By all means, turn it off in a suitable place and time, and I myself do love getting the car sideways on track and on a safe road, and like you I also receive training and do hold a UK advanced driving licence, but...

The point of the original post is simple:

In the event something out of your control occurs (and you'll never be in complete control of everything), regardless of how skilled, prepared or aware you may be or how brilliant your car is, stability control will do a better job than you can in helping to keep the car stable once the car really goes out of shape - which might just save you and the lives of those around you, especially when there are pedestrians and other cars around.

And such an event need only happen once in your lifetime.

I don't know how else to put it more clearly than video demos by 2 extremely talented drivers with F1 history, and they are clearly not trying to beat DSC/ESP/ESC over lap times, and neither are they driving at speeds that are not legally attainable on public roads.

It's your choice to decide what you want, but turning off a safety net for the times when no "fun" or benefit is to be gained with it off (like driving on a highway with other cars around), seems rather egotistical.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

The last part of the first video clearly shows Steve trying to regain control of the car after inducing an avoidance manoeuvre.

Watch it again: He clearly states at 1:30 and 2:00 that he's trying hard not to correct the car for the ESP on test. He then says at 3:00 that he's trying to do "exactly the same thing again". It is clear that he is intentionally trying to get the car out of shape and then not correct it. Not exactly shocking that a spin results, is it?

Originally Posted by mlhj83

It's your choice to decide what you want, but turning off a safety net for the times when no "fun" or benefit is to be gained with it off (like driving on a highway with other cars around), seems rather egotistical.

Do you ever drive above the speed limit? If so, why do you compromise the safety of yourself and those around you rather than slow down slightly?

My issue is you assume I drive with DSC off due to ego. Instead, I drive that way because the car constantly handles as I expect it will. Every car I've driven or competed with for the last 20 years has either not had DSC or had it off, and I naturally anticipate what the car's going to do in a given situation. I've tried the 1M with it on, and the DSC occasionally kicks in when I don't expect it to it catches me out: I'm already correcting for a slide and the DSC kicks in to catch it as well, and the car ends up being over-corrected and not pointing where I want it to.

Most people prefer a car to consistently do what they tell it to. There are some situations like a high speed double lane change where I agree I won't be quite as quick to catch the car as DSC can. However realize there are other situations (not as many, I'll grant you) like a single hard panic turn where DSC on will not let the car corner as hard as with it off. Regardless of this, consistency is key to the driving experience, and this is what is gained by keeping DSC either always on or always off. I choose always off.

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Watch it again: He clearly states at 1:30 and 2:00 that he's trying hard not to correct the car for the ESP on test. He then says at 3:00 that he's trying to do "exactly the same thing again". It is clear that he is intentionally trying to get the car out of shape and then not correct it. Not exactly shocking that a spin results, is it?


Do you ever drive above the speed limit? If so, why do you compromise the safety of yourself and those around you rather than slow down slightly?

My issue is you assume I drive with DSC off due to ego. Instead, I drive that way because the car constantly handles as I expect it will. Every car I've driven or competed with for the last 20 years has either not had DSC or had it off, and I naturally anticipate what the car's going to do in a given situation. I've tried the 1M with it on, and the DSC occasionally kicks in when I don't expect it to it catches me out: I'm already correcting for a slide and the DSC kicks in to catch it as well, and the car ends up being over-corrected and not pointing where I want it to.

Most people prefer a car to consistently do what they tell it to. There are some situations like a high speed double lane change where I agree I won't be quite as quick to catch the car as DSC can. However realize there are other situations (not as many, I'll grant you) like a single hard panic turn where DSC on will not let the car corner as hard as with it off. Regardless of this, consistency is key to the driving experience, and this is what is gained by keeping DSC either always on or always off. I choose always off.

I think you are probably the only one who interpreted what Steve said as "exactly the same thing again" as being "I'm not going to correct it" when the video very clearly shows him counter-steering after inducing the avoidance manoeuvre. He meant that he's going to do the exact same sudden manoeuvre.

Look at it another way, why would he need to demonstrate whether a car can magically regain control by itself with ESC off - of course it's going to lose control if he is not going to correct it - what's the point of demonstrating that?

Yes, older car didn't have stability systems, but that's not the point. The point is that it's counterintuitive to turn stability systems off when it's there for when you are just doing "regular" driving. And your question about driving above the speed limit, well, again the videos don't show them driving more than 75mph, which is a legal speed on many (not all) of your freeways and indeed many other countries. Obviously, regardless of speed limit, driving at a speed not suitable for the situation (even though it's below the legal limit) is potentially dangerous.

If you strongly feel that DSC impedes the way you drive and the way you like your car to respond regardless of situation, then obviously nobody can force you to leave it on. It boils down to benefit of DSC vs personal preference, but the videos are a clear demonstration, and I'm willing to bet that both Tiff and Steve drive with stability systems on most of the time (judging by a lot of the articles they write about in the mags). I wish you safe driving.

[vantagesc]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

Look at it another way, why would he need to demonstrate whether a car can magically regain control by itself with ESC off - of course it's going to lose control if he is not going to correct it - what's the point of demonstrating that?

Before you guys started discussing this, I actually thought the same as Pete. In the final maneuver, it looked like he wanted to show how dramatic a difference ESP makes. Very little steering input / correction resulted in ESP saving the car vs. doing a 360 or more with it off. It did seem like there was some slight "showmanship" going on in the this video in order to make a point. Was the very first maneuver he did with ESP on or off? If it was with it ON, why did he have such a big oversteer compared to the second attempt? If it was with it OFF, why was he able to correct it compared to the giant spin on the third attempt? Reason: showmanship to make a point. In any case, the car still corrected faster with ESP on.

I thought Tiff's video was more realistic in that sense...even when he spun out completely, he had tried to save the car from all appearances.

That said, I tend to agree with your point in starting this thread. If you have some sort of electronic program that adds to safety, might as well use it. Most of the time I drive with DSC OFF, but DCT ON (135i). With the 135i in dry weather, the full DSC program does some strange things that can lead to unexpected results or getting caught in bad situation with no power. At times it seems too intrusive in day to day driving. DCT still provides a safety net.

If it's raining hard, I will leave DSC on in full.

[ChrisBuer]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Honestly man, get thee out to an autocross now! That's criminal.

To be fair, I'm a qualified advanced driver (UK IAM and ROSPA Gold certified driver). I also have driven with and am in the process of taking the necessary steps to join the UK's High Performance Club (HPC). Add this to the countless limit handling and car control days I have completed with the likes of Don Palmer and Lotus Cars UK and I'm quite comfortable controlling a car without the electronic gadgets.

Having said all of this, I never get my car to the limit on the public roads where I feel that the traction controls holding me back. If the traction control is coming on, I'm either not driving the car smoothly enough or I'm driving too fast for the public roads.

However when I took my car on track, I played with both the MDM and DSC fully off. On the road, I don't see the need to turn it fully off personally.

[mlhj83]

Originally Posted by vantagesc

Perhaps wanted to show how dramatic a difference ESP makes. Very little steering input / correction resulted in ESP saving the car vs. doing a 360 or more with it off. It did seem like there was some slight "showmanship" going on in the first video in order to make a point.

I thought Tiff's video was more realistic in that sense...even when he spun out completely, he had tried to save the car from all appearances.

That said, I tend to agree with your point in starting this thread. If you have some sort of electronic program that adds to safety, might as well use it. Most of the time I drive with DSC OFF, but DCT ON (135i). With the 135i in dry weather, the full DSC program does some strange things that can lead to unexpected results or getting caught in bad situation with no power. At times it seems too intrusive in day to day driving. DCT still provides a safety net.

If it's raining hard, I will leave DSC on in full.

Steve did definitely attempt to correct it, in the slow-mo, you can clearly see the first clockwise then counter-clockwise steer (both of which are what you would do during a lane change avoidance manoeuvre towards the right-hand lane), then to attempt to catch the slide, he swung the steering as clockwise as possible till it hit the steering lock, but obviously the car could not be recovered.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

I think you are probably the only one who interpreted what Steve said as "exactly the same thing again" as being "I'm not going to correct it" when the video very clearly shows him counter-steering at least 3 times after inducing the avoidance manoeuvre. He meant that he's going to do the exact same sudden manoeuvre.

I'm going by what he said. He says he's not going to correct the ESP run too, but I count two corrections before he lets go of the wheel. He says multiple times he's having trouble not correcting the car. Certainly I agree it's possible to upset the car enough that you can't catch it if you try. But in a real situation, driving a car without ESP, do you seriously think Steve would spin the car, or would be be less violent with his inputs and try not to unsettle it? Having seen his videos and read his long term tests of the 1M on winter tires, etc, I'm willing to bet Steve drives with DSC off most of the time.

Again you didn't answer my question. Why do you knowingly endanger yourself and others by speeding? That's more dangerous than turning DSC off, clearly. So why do you think that's OK, but turning DSC off isn't? Just because you don't perceive a benefit to turning DSC off? If so, isn't perception down to the individual?

[vantagesc]

Originally Posted by mlhj83

Steve did definitely attempt to correct it, in the slow-mo, you can clearly see the first clockwise then counter-clockwise steer (both of which are what you would do during a lane change avoidance manoeuvre), then to attempt to catch the slide, he swung the steering as clockwise as possible till it hit the steering lock, but obviously the car could not be recovered.

I'm not saying that he didn't try to correct it, but my point is that he didn't react as quickly as he did in the first maneuver (as shown onboard) in order to make a point about how well ESP works.

- First maneuver (not clear whether ESP was ON or OFF): Steve catches slide after substantial effort;
- Second maneuver (ESP ON): Steve catches slide with almost no effort;
- Third maneuver (ESP OFF): Steve does not catch slide.

Originally Posted by vantagesc

Was the very first maneuver he did with ESP on or off? If it was with it ON, why did he have such a big oversteer compared to the second attempt? If it was with it OFF, why was he able to correct it compared to the giant spin on the third attempt?

How do you reconcile the results of the first maneuver with the other two? Perhaps the magnitude of the maneuver was different, but it seems to me that there was some showmanship involved in the third to make it look more dramatic.