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      09-14-2013, 02:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
+1 agreed, e85 allows for more aggressive boost and timing, which in turn will accelerate the wear on certain parts of the car, if you are not prepared to take care of something down the line if it fails, you should stay away from e85 as it hasn't been determined if it does have a negative effect of certain parts of the engine or fuel system.
I am tempted to follow your route. What should I be aware of? And what route would you suggest to run full e85?
Some things you'd want to be aware with are that the injectors can actually start to clog up a little after multiple tanks of high concentrations of e85. You'll notice some hesitations here and there in the power band. When that happens with me, usually I will run the tank empty then fill the next two or so tanks with 91 from chevron. I have a feeling the techron gets in there and clears up the injectors.

Always reset adaptations after going from e85 back to a lower concentration of ethanol or straight 91. You do not want to run your engine too aggressively since it had been adapted to the previous amount of ethanol.

You want to run the 1 step colder NGK 5992 spark plugs gapped to around .022". You have a way higher chance of misfiring on the stock plugs, these will help with that. You also want to change plugs when running straight e85 every 8-12k miles depending on how long they last. You will go through them faster if constantly running straight e85.

It is important to be up to date on your oil changes, every 5 or 6k I change mine with straight e85.


As far as what set up I would recommend going with, I have to always give props to Vishnu and fftec. For the 10 or so months I've been running their inline fuel pump and flexfuel sensor, I have had hardly any issues, and the issues I did have were resolved with the latest firmware. I'm running a procede rev 2.5, OpenFlash Tablet, catless dps, dual cone intakes, and soon ER charge pipe with forge dv's. you will need an upgraded clutch to hold the torque and power, I recommend the spec stage 2+ with steel single mass fly wheel. The tune I am running dyno'd on another car with my same exact mods at 469whp and 530wtq, and this thing is scary on the street. Third gear cold nights on 255 280 tread wear and I am spinning at 3k rpm. All in all though, E85 is too much fun!
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      09-14-2013, 03:15 PM   #24
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You must tune for E85 to avoid problems. I see most people on this forum just adding it into the tank and running with whatever tune they have. That's the wrong way to do it.

E85 has a completely different target A/F ratio and your engine has no idea you're running it unless you tell it you are...
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      09-14-2013, 04:03 PM   #25
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Honestly OP, that was only one multiple issues with your post and the "facts" presented in this thread but I don't really care to get in to it on this board. I just happened to notice the thread when I came here to order a third brake light.

My only advice...if you're going to run e85...as I said...do your homework...there is plenty of information out there.
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      09-14-2013, 04:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Some things you'd want to be aware with are that the injectors can actually start to clog up a little after multiple tanks of high concentrations of e85. You'll notice some hesitations here and there in the power band. When that happens with me, usually I will run the tank empty then fill the next two or so tanks with 91 from chevron. I have a feeling the techron gets in there and clears up the injectors.

Always reset adaptations after going from e85 back to a lower concentration of ethanol or straight 91. You do not want to run your engine too aggressively since it had been adapted to the previous amount of ethanol.

You want to run the 1 step colder NGK 5992 spark plugs gapped to around .022". You have a way higher chance of misfiring on the stock plugs, these will help with that. You also want to change plugs when running straight e85 every 8-12k miles depending on how long they last. You will go through them faster if constantly running straight e85.

It is important to be up to date on your oil changes, every 5 or 6k I change mine with straight e85.


As far as what set up I would recommend going with, I have to always give props to Vishnu and fftec. For the 10 or so months I've been running their inline fuel pump and flexfuel sensor, I have had hardly any issues, and the issues I did have were resolved with the latest firmware. I'm running a procede rev 2.5, OpenFlash Tablet, catless dps, dual cone intakes, and soon ER charge pipe with forge dv's. you will need an upgraded clutch to hold the torque and power, I recommend the spec stage 2+ with steel single mass fly wheel. The tune I am running dyno'd on another car with my same exact mods at 469whp and 530wtq, and this thing is scary on the street. Third gear cold nights on 255 280 tread wear and I am spinning at 3k rpm. All in all though, E85 is too much fun!
I have some hesitations going the Procede route after some stories from the e46 crowd. OCI's aren't an issue for me. I don't want to go the mix route, have no interest in meth-injection.

So I definitely need both a flash and a piggyback? Thank you for the rec's I will add clutch and plugs to my shopping list.

Thank you so much for the info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
You must tune for E85 to avoid problems. I see most people on this forum just adding it into the tank and running with whatever tune they have. That's the wrong way to do it.

E85 has a completely different target A/F ratio and your engine has no idea you're running it unless you tell it you are...
Absolutely, I am just debating what tune to run 100% e85 (or if there are options besides the OFT+Procede).
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      09-14-2013, 04:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Some things you'd want to be aware with are that the injectors can actually start to clog up a little after multiple tanks of high concentrations of e85. You'll notice some hesitations here and there in the power band. When that happens with me, usually I will run the tank empty then fill the next two or so tanks with 91 from chevron. I have a feeling the techron gets in there and clears up the injectors.

Always reset adaptations after going from e85 back to a lower concentration of ethanol or straight 91. You do not want to run your engine too aggressively since it had been adapted to the previous amount of ethanol.

You want to run the 1 step colder NGK 5992 spark plugs gapped to around .022". You have a way higher chance of misfiring on the stock plugs, these will help with that. You also want to change plugs when running straight e85 every 8-12k miles depending on how long they last. You will go through them faster if constantly running straight e85.

It is important to be up to date on your oil changes, every 5 or 6k I change mine with straight e85.


As far as what set up I would recommend going with, I have to always give props to Vishnu and fftec. For the 10 or so months I've been running their inline fuel pump and flexfuel sensor, I have had hardly any issues, and the issues I did have were resolved with the latest firmware. I'm running a procede rev 2.5, OpenFlash Tablet, catless dps, dual cone intakes, and soon ER charge pipe with forge dv's. you will need an upgraded clutch to hold the torque and power, I recommend the spec stage 2+ with steel single mass fly wheel. The tune I am running dyno'd on another car with my same exact mods at 469whp and 530wtq, and this thing is scary on the street. Third gear cold nights on 255 280 tread wear and I am spinning at 3k rpm. All in all though, E85 is too much fun!
I have some hesitations going the Procede route after some stories from the e46 crowd. OCI's aren't an issue for me. I don't want to go the mix route, have no interest in meth-injection.

So I definitely need both a flash and a piggyback? Thank you for the rec's I will add clutch and plugs to my shopping list.

Thank you so much for the info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
You must tune for E85 to avoid problems. I see most people on this forum just adding it into the tank and running with whatever tune they have. That's the wrong way to do it.

E85 has a completely different target A/F ratio and your engine has no idea you're running it unless you tell it you are...
Absolutely, I am just debating what tune to run 100% e85.
I'd recommend shiv and his tuning to anyone on this platform, he's done some great things for the n54. Not too sure what his track record is on other platforms, just this one. You should go over to fftec in Hayward and meet him sometime.

The stacked combo has worked flawlessly for me. You can now also see ethanol percentage on the speedo in kilos per hour which is a lot easier than having to plug your laptop in to the procede to find out.
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      09-14-2013, 05:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
So I definitely need both a flash and a piggyback? Thank you for the rec's I will add clutch and plugs to my shopping list.
Not at all. Any custom flash tune will work. No need to get a piggyback on top of it. You'd just be tuning the tune at that point.
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      09-14-2013, 05:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
So I definitely need both a flash and a piggyback? Thank you for the rec's I will add clutch and plugs to my shopping list.
Not at all. Any custom flash tune will work. No need to get a piggyback on top of it. You'd just be tuning the tune at that point.
Piggies help when running boost levels higher than 18.5-19psi, the dme code is capped there, it would require new code for higher boost levels, which I'm sure is either out there or being worked on as we speak.
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      09-14-2013, 05:16 PM   #30
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5 tank fulls of E30 and my stock fuel pump was toast. lol.
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      09-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
Not at all. Any custom flash tune will work. No need to get a piggyback on top of it. You'd just be tuning the tune at that point.
Not entirely true but on point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Piggies help when running boost levels higher than 18.5-19psi, the dme code is capped there, it would require new code for higher boost levels, which I'm sure is either out there or being worked on as we speak.
Not true at all.
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      09-14-2013, 05:19 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 1911A145 View Post
5 tank fulls of E30 and my stock fuel pump was toast. lol.
likely had nothing to do with the ethanol content.
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      09-14-2013, 06:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
Not at all. Any custom flash tune will work. No need to get a piggyback on top of it. You'd just be tuning the tune at that point.
Not entirely true but on point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Piggies help when running boost levels higher than 18.5-19psi, the dme code is capped there, it would require new code for higher boost levels, which I'm sure is either out there or being worked on as we speak.
Not true at all.
Could you correct me then, please?
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      09-14-2013, 07:03 PM   #34
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Piggys do a better job targeting higher boost, but it can be done via flash for sure.
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      09-14-2013, 08:27 PM   #35
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So, I really don't want to debate any of this on this board.

The problem I had with this thread is that the OP gives what appears as a very biased and inaccurate description of the details. By that I mean...

He says he was unable to reproduce his failures without a tune. He takes the car in, has to have 4 injectors that "failed" replaced...now he doesn't run E85, all his problems are solved, and he is making this proclamation.

Now, as hard as I may try, I too am obviously biased.

So my only message here is that most people usually go searching for data that supports their original position. If that's what you do on this topic, you're going to find it no matter which side of the field you're on. Think critically, do your own homework, and draw your own conclusions.

To get anybody interested started in their research, here is an interesting conversation that took place between a member on another board and one of the engineers responsible for the development of our fueling system. I can't post a link to the source, but I'm sure if you copy and paste a line from what I've posted and do a Google search with it, you can find it for yourselves.

Enjoy....

Does the N54B30 use homogenous or stratified charge under high load ?
- The engine was developed to run in homogenous mode. The N53 engine was to run in a stratified mode. Although the engine is capable of running in stratified mode, it currently does not.
It uses an outward opening injector.

Have you experience with this engine and E85 fuel or do you have any thought on it ? Can e.g. the injectors handle alcohol ?
We have a lot of experience with E85. Currently, we have an issue that if the injector is hotter than 100 Celsius, we are seeing melting of the fuel filter in the injectors. As long as the temperature of the injector stays under the 100 Celsius, this engine is perferctly capable to run E85. As a matter of fact, it will run E100 without any problem under cold conditions. There is no need to preheat the fuel.
We are investigating the filter issue, and we hope to have a solution next year. Whether or not we will create injectors for this engine, depends on the market (read: BMW).
It is not possible to replace this filter yourself; you cannot open the injector to get to that part.

Is the HPFP pressure of 90 bar constant or is it controlled by the MSD module ?
It is constant but indeed controlled by the module. The engine has been tested to up to 200 bar. If you keep the HPFP pump below that number, you could inject a lot more fuel. The relation between the amount of fuel sprayed and the pressure is not a linear relation but a Bernulli equation.

In our earlier conversion, you mentioned that under high load the TI is about 2 ms ? Correct ?
Yes maximum is 2 ms. Notice that the engine runs under homogenous mode and that means that the injection start in the intake phase. With this engine, it is no problem to keep injection into the compression phase, but not too long; it would be bad for emission. However, if the pressure of the HPFP is increased, this may not be needed.

The injectors have a maximum of 40 mg/ms spray at 200 bar. This is an increadible amount of fuel, much much more than any solenoid injector. It is this high, because when we designed the application, BMW insisted that the engine must be able - in limp mode - to only use the LPFP pressure, which is 5 bar, and still drive the vehicle at 170 km/h.


If correct, do you agree then that considering the ti in the compression phase, we can get it up to 4 ms for 7000 rpm ? Can we use the full compression phase ?

You would have to calculate it, but yes, there is extra time at mentioned before.
The injector can inject a lot of fuel into the cylinder. When increasing the injection time, and also when injecting in the compression phase, look out for cylinder wall wetting. This is dangerous. It would wash away the oil on the walls, causing wear. One way to check for wall wetting is to check the engine oil if it has fuel in it. Another way would be to check if the vapor of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and see if there's fuel vapor.
The risk of wall wetting may be reduced by running higher boost, as it affects air flow inside the cylinder.
Running the HPFP at higher pressure may increase the risk again.

You said we should tune the TI duration of the ignition pulse. Can we also tune with the MSD via a reflesh when the ignition time starts ?
There is indeed a calculated ignitition start time in the MSD. It is not a map, but i'm not sure.

How does the ECU measure a knocking problem ? Does it use voltage ? Does it do it for all 6 cilinders individual ?
Each piezo injector has a knocking sensor. It measures vibration. By looking at certain frequencies, the knocking signal is sent.

De community is desperate to lean more about the MSD80. We would love to have information that can help us reflesh the unit to tune to engine for 600 PS. Can you help ? Can you direct us to a colleague (do you have a name ?) This is vital for my own project too !
I don't know about the MSD80. I'm an injection / fuel system engineer. I will talk to some colleagues and see if i can help you with anything. We have to make sure we're not infringing any copyrights and i think BMW owns the rights to the information on the MSD.


Can we buy this information ? Who should I talk to to ?
there may be a legal way to buy this information, i will talk to some colleagues and mail you back.


All of us want to invite you to join our forum N54tech.com. An engineer like you would be incredible value to the forum, may I mail you an invite to join ? It’s free of course !
Thank you for the invitation. I will think about it. I have to be careful not to share information that my company doesn't want us to share.
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      09-14-2013, 09:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ
So, I really don't want to debate any of this on this board.

The problem I had with this thread is that the OP gives what appears as a very biased and inaccurate description of the details. By that I mean...

He says he was unable to reproduce his failures without a tune. He takes the car in, has to have 4 injectors that "failed" replaced...now he doesn't run E85, all his problems are solved, and he is making this proclamation.

Now, as hard as I may try, I too am obviously biased.

So my only message here is that most people usually go searching for data that supports their original position. If that's what you do on this topic, you're going to find it no matter which side of the field you're on. Think critically, do your own homework, and draw your own conclusions.

To get anybody interested started in their research, here is an interesting conversation that took place between a member on another board and one of the engineers responsible for the development of our fueling system. I can't post a link to the source, but I'm sure if you copy and paste a line from what I've posted and do a Google search with it, you can find it for yourselves.

Enjoy....

Does the N54B30 use homogenous or stratified charge under high load ?
- The engine was developed to run in homogenous mode. The N53 engine was to run in a stratified mode. Although the engine is capable of running in stratified mode, it currently does not.
It uses an outward opening injector.

Have you experience with this engine and E85 fuel or do you have any thought on it ? Can e.g. the injectors handle alcohol ?
We have a lot of experience with E85. Currently, we have an issue that if the injector is hotter than 100 Celsius, we are seeing melting of the fuel filter in the injectors. As long as the temperature of the injector stays under the 100 Celsius, this engine is perferctly capable to run E85. As a matter of fact, it will run E100 without any problem under cold conditions. There is no need to preheat the fuel.
We are investigating the filter issue, and we hope to have a solution next year. Whether or not we will create injectors for this engine, depends on the market (read: BMW).
It is not possible to replace this filter yourself; you cannot open the injector to get to that part.

Is the HPFP pressure of 90 bar constant or is it controlled by the MSD module ?
It is constant but indeed controlled by the module. The engine has been tested to up to 200 bar. If you keep the HPFP pump below that number, you could inject a lot more fuel. The relation between the amount of fuel sprayed and the pressure is not a linear relation but a Bernulli equation.

In our earlier conversion, you mentioned that under high load the TI is about 2 ms ? Correct ?
Yes maximum is 2 ms. Notice that the engine runs under homogenous mode and that means that the injection start in the intake phase. With this engine, it is no problem to keep injection into the compression phase, but not too long; it would be bad for emission. However, if the pressure of the HPFP is increased, this may not be needed.

The injectors have a maximum of 40 mg/ms spray at 200 bar. This is an increadible amount of fuel, much much more than any solenoid injector. It is this high, because when we designed the application, BMW insisted that the engine must be able - in limp mode - to only use the LPFP pressure, which is 5 bar, and still drive the vehicle at 170 km/h.


If correct, do you agree then that considering the ti in the compression phase, we can get it up to 4 ms for 7000 rpm ? Can we use the full compression phase ?

You would have to calculate it, but yes, there is extra time at mentioned before.
The injector can inject a lot of fuel into the cylinder. When increasing the injection time, and also when injecting in the compression phase, look out for cylinder wall wetting. This is dangerous. It would wash away the oil on the walls, causing wear. One way to check for wall wetting is to check the engine oil if it has fuel in it. Another way would be to check if the vapor of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and see if there's fuel vapor.
The risk of wall wetting may be reduced by running higher boost, as it affects air flow inside the cylinder.
Running the HPFP at higher pressure may increase the risk again.

You said we should tune the TI duration of the ignition pulse. Can we also tune with the MSD via a reflesh when the ignition time starts ?
There is indeed a calculated ignitition start time in the MSD. It is not a map, but i'm not sure.

How does the ECU measure a knocking problem ? Does it use voltage ? Does it do it for all 6 cilinders individual ?
Each piezo injector has a knocking sensor. It measures vibration. By looking at certain frequencies, the knocking signal is sent.

De community is desperate to lean more about the MSD80. We would love to have information that can help us reflesh the unit to tune to engine for 600 PS. Can you help ? Can you direct us to a colleague (do you have a name ?) This is vital for my own project too !
I don't know about the MSD80. I'm an injection / fuel system engineer. I will talk to some colleagues and see if i can help you with anything. We have to make sure we're not infringing any copyrights and i think BMW owns the rights to the information on the MSD.


Can we buy this information ? Who should I talk to to ?
there may be a legal way to buy this information, i will talk to some colleagues and mail you back.


All of us want to invite you to join our forum N54tech.com. An engineer like you would be incredible value to the forum, may I mail you an invite to join ? Its free of course !
Thank you for the invitation. I will think about it. I have to be careful not to share information that my company doesn't want us to share.
Awesome info thanks for posting this.
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      09-15-2013, 01:50 AM   #37
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      09-15-2013, 03:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
likely had nothing to do with the ethanol content.
Go on....
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      09-15-2013, 06:39 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911A145 View Post
Go on....
That's a little difficult to diagnose postmortem without a whole lot more information. i.e. logs, mods, tune info, Fuel info, car history, and which pump are you even talking about? Did you know we have more than one? If so, what else do you know about the fuel system, or the tune you were running? Did you verify your fuel, how did you come to the conclusion you were running E30? What time of year was this?

Not picking on you and sorry if it sounds like it, but these are all things you should know if you're going to start operating your car outside the manufacturers guidelines.

Of the HPFP failures that people often associate with ethanol, as to how many cases that is actually true...and then if it is, what was the real cause? The properties of ethanol or the fact that an improper tune and setup will likely have your LPFP pressures dropping dramatically and starving your HPFP? Then add in the fact that this will cause your long and short term trims to go way outside the operating limits of the DME and forcing it to take drastic measures to maintain fuel pressures but not run your engine too lean.

Simply coming on here and stating...ethanol killed my pump, injectors, girlfriend....yada, yada without providing any meaningful supporting data or facts more than likely means you shouldn't have been running it in the first place. And "because my SA said it did" doesn't cut it.

When I first started this journey and was having problems I was told my HPFP was bad numerous times by peers and tuners. That was about 10K miles ago. Guess which HPFP is in my car....the original one. How many do I have in my garage...2 additional One new one that verified it wasn't an HPFP issue, and one take off that I got for experimenting with. Only one time did I have a real failure and I don't think it can be attributed to ethanol but I can't rule it out. It was a leaky injector and the reason I went looking for it...I changed my DPs and one of them was black. I hadn't had the car for very long but I was running about E25 at the time and had been for a maybe a month or so. I then pulled the plugs and injectors and found the offender...cylinder 5 was wet. Every other problem I've had has been attributed to tune, LPFP setup, or just my own learning curve. Of those, none of them were failing parts.

Again, I'm not here to debate E85 or here with an agenda, I don't care what you run in your cars. But, if you're going to point fingers, then be prepared to back it up with data.

As I said, I am obviously a bit biased...but it's not just because I use, it's because I studied up on it. I can tell you the pro's of E85 just as well as I can tell you the con's of it from production, to properties, to usage. Obviously a lot of that information is debatable and some times it even comes down to the lessor of two evils. So again, make your own choices, but make educated ones, not...

"5 tank fulls of E30 and my stock fuel pump was toast."

or

"Those injectors are rated at 200 PSI." and "There is a recall of the programing of the fuel pump that needed to be done by BMW."

Where this guy got this I have no idea given that our rails see pressures upwards of 3000PSI...maybe he meant 200bar

and reprogramming of the fuel pump? The pump itself (impossible) as the HPFP only electrical part there is on the HPFP is the flow control valve. Maybe you mean the reprogramming of the DME to cycle the LPFP to pressurize the system when you unlock your car or open your door?

or

"E85 fuel is very dense and does not burn completely"

Really? The SG of ethanol is .787 and the SG of gasoline is .739...what do you consider "very dense"? What other characteristics of ethanol can you tell us about. How about what temperature it burns at, or its rate of atomization compared to that of gasoline since that is also what you seem to be quoting. Hint, there is a reason methanol (also an alcohol) is used for CP injection.

or

"Indeed, it is a fuel that corrodes rubber"

True, but can you tell us how much rubber we have in our fuel system or what materials our fuel system consists of?

or

"Ran 30/70 e85/93 for 2 or 3 months had to replace:
1 LFPS
12 plugs
6 injectors
Just sayin

DPs FMIC JB4 ISO"

I don't even know what an LFPS is...not even going to touch this one
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2008 E88--Fuel-It! Stage 4 LPFP & PI--PS2 turbos--JB4/MHD--FBO--662whp/604wtq
2011 E90--Fuel-It! S2BL LPFP and PI--PS2 Turbo--JB4/MHD--FBO--546whp/589wtq
2013 Mini JCW--Tune--DP--FMIC--a couple Fuel-It! goodies--265whp/320wtq
2013 F10--JB4/BM3
2015 F82--Fuel-It! Stage 3 LPFP & PI--PS2 Turbos-- JB4/BM3-FBO
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      09-15-2013, 09:11 AM   #40
Stohlen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911A145 View Post
Go on....
A pump is a pump. It doesn't care what kind of liquid its pumping. 5 tanks of an ethanol mix isn't going to be enough to corrode the internal seals of the pump and cause a failure. Especially because modern cars are built to tolerate ethanol to an extent (because regular gas is E10-E15.)

Now if you didn't tune for that ethanol and just threw it in your tank, and that led to a failure, that's your fault not the ethanols.
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      09-15-2013, 09:24 AM   #41
ervgotti01
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Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
So, I really don't want to debate any of this on this board.

The problem I had with this thread is that the OP gives what appears as a very biased and inaccurate description of the details. By that I mean...

He says he was unable to reproduce his failures without a tune. He takes the car in, has to have 4 injectors that "failed" replaced...now he doesn't run E85, all his problems are solved, and he is making this proclamation.

Now, as hard as I may try, I too am obviously biased.

So my only message here is that most people usually go searching for data that supports their original position. If that's what you do on this topic, you're going to find it no matter which side of the field you're on. Think critically, do your own homework, and draw your own conclusions.

To get anybody interested started in their research, here is an interesting conversation that took place between a member on another board and one of the engineers responsible for the development of our fueling system. I can't post a link to the source, but I'm sure if you copy and paste a line from what I've posted and do a Google search with it, you can find it for yourselves.

Enjoy....

Does the N54B30 use homogenous or stratified charge under high load ?
- The engine was developed to run in homogenous mode. The N53 engine was to run in a stratified mode. Although the engine is capable of running in stratified mode, it currently does not.
It uses an outward opening injector.

Have you experience with this engine and E85 fuel or do you have any thought on it ? Can e.g. the injectors handle alcohol ?
We have a lot of experience with E85. Currently, we have an issue that if the injector is hotter than 100 Celsius, we are seeing melting of the fuel filter in the injectors. As long as the temperature of the injector stays under the 100 Celsius, this engine is perferctly capable to run E85. As a matter of fact, it will run E100 without any problem under cold conditions. There is no need to preheat the fuel.
We are investigating the filter issue, and we hope to have a solution next year. Whether or not we will create injectors for this engine, depends on the market (read: BMW).
It is not possible to replace this filter yourself; you cannot open the injector to get to that part.


Is the HPFP pressure of 90 bar constant or is it controlled by the MSD module ?
It is constant but indeed controlled by the module. The engine has been tested to up to 200 bar. If you keep the HPFP pump below that number, you could inject a lot more fuel. The relation between the amount of fuel sprayed and the pressure is not a linear relation but a Bernulli equation.

In our earlier conversion, you mentioned that under high load the TI is about 2 ms ? Correct ?
Yes maximum is 2 ms. Notice that the engine runs under homogenous mode and that means that the injection start in the intake phase. With this engine, it is no problem to keep injection into the compression phase, but not too long; it would be bad for emission. However, if the pressure of the HPFP is increased, this may not be needed.

The injectors have a maximum of 40 mg/ms spray at 200 bar. This is an increadible amount of fuel, much much more than any solenoid injector. It is this high, because when we designed the application, BMW insisted that the engine must be able - in limp mode - to only use the LPFP pressure, which is 5 bar, and still drive the vehicle at 170 km/h.


If correct, do you agree then that considering the ti in the compression phase, we can get it up to 4 ms for 7000 rpm ? Can we use the full compression phase ?

You would have to calculate it, but yes, there is extra time at mentioned before.
The injector can inject a lot of fuel into the cylinder. When increasing the injection time, and also when injecting in the compression phase, look out for cylinder wall wetting. This is dangerous. It would wash away the oil on the walls, causing wear. One way to check for wall wetting is to check the engine oil if it has fuel in it. Another way would be to check if the vapor of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and see if there's fuel vapor.
The risk of wall wetting may be reduced by running higher boost, as it affects air flow inside the cylinder.
Running the HPFP at higher pressure may increase the risk again.

You said we should tune the TI duration of the ignition pulse. Can we also tune with the MSD via a reflesh when the ignition time starts ?
There is indeed a calculated ignitition start time in the MSD. It is not a map, but i'm not sure.

How does the ECU measure a knocking problem ? Does it use voltage ? Does it do it for all 6 cilinders individual ?
Each piezo injector has a knocking sensor. It measures vibration. By looking at certain frequencies, the knocking signal is sent.

De community is desperate to lean more about the MSD80. We would love to have information that can help us reflesh the unit to tune to engine for 600 PS. Can you help ? Can you direct us to a colleague (do you have a name ?) This is vital for my own project too !
I don't know about the MSD80. I'm an injection / fuel system engineer. I will talk to some colleagues and see if i can help you with anything. We have to make sure we're not infringing any copyrights and i think BMW owns the rights to the information on the MSD.


Can we buy this information ? Who should I talk to to ?
there may be a legal way to buy this information, i will talk to some colleagues and mail you back.


All of us want to invite you to join our forum N54tech.com. An engineer like you would be incredible value to the forum, may I mail you an invite to join ? It’s free of course !
Thank you for the invitation. I will think about it. I have to be careful not to share information that my company doesn't want us to share.
Very useful information right here, and I've read and followed that thread for a bit. But the part in bold straight up proves my point. I had injectors that failed, not the HPFP nor LPFP...injectors. 100 Celsius equals 212 Fahrenheit. Hell our oil runs hotter than that and you'd be naive to think that the injectors aren't reaching that temperature.

If you've been following the N54 platform as long as I have (Since 08) you would have seen the numerous batches of injectors BMW kept throwing at the problem as they were having injectors fail even before people were running E85. The inconsistencies with what batches were or were not failing means like I said you can have a different batch of injectors compared to someone else with N54. Some of the newer batches might have a better designed filter, but you would not know what batch you're running unless you pulled the numbers off your injectors.

Hence my original intent was to say if you can't afford to replace multiple injectors, you might not want to mess with E85. Which is so funny because as soon as someone creates a "I'm out of warranty thread help" you people are so quick to point out "you gotta pay to play".

As far as the dealership issue, I don't understand how you can't comprehend this? So I'll try to explain it again as simple as I can:

1. Most if not all Dealerships will not perform any warranty work unless there's an engine code. This is what they use to justify to BMW the work performed.

2. When my injectors went, it would only throw multiple misfire codes under tune, even the mildest tune ie sport and drive maps on Cobb and I had stopped running E85 by then.

3. It would not I repeat would not throw those codes on the stock tune no matter how hard I pushed it.

4. With the Cobb AP when you flash the car back to stock, it automatically erases all codes stored within the DME. There is no getting around this.

5. Hence my dilemma, I couldn't get warranty work done without codes but I couldn't keep the codes stored unless I kept the tune on.

It's so funny to me how there are multiple threads on multiple forums asking if people have had any trouble running E85, but as soon as someone says something everyone is quick to jump their bones. Trust me I was on the other side of the fence and loved running E85, but now I would only run it for track or race purposes.

Last edited by ervgotti01; 09-15-2013 at 09:38 AM..
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      09-15-2013, 09:48 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ervgotti01 View Post
Very useful information right here, and I've read and followed that thread for a bit. But the part in bold straight up proves my point. I had injectors that failed, not the HPFP nor LPFP...injectors. 100 Celsius equals 212 Fahrenheit. Hell our oil runs hotter than that and you'd be naive to think that the injectors aren't reaching that temperature.
By this logic, the filters would melt with any kind of fuel, because the oil runs over 212 degrees.... Until you realize that the fuel is cooling the injector at all times. Then your point is moot because you really have no idea how hot the injectors get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ervgotti01 View Post
It's so funny to me how there are multiple threads on multiple forums asking if people have had any trouble running E85, but as soon as someone says something everyone is quick to jump their bones. Trust me I was on the other side of the fence and loved running E85, but now I would only run it for track or race purposes.
The problem is that you've provided no proof that E85 did anything to your injectors. And alot of time there is no way to provide proof, so you shouldn't blame it just on the gas. Do you know how unlikely it is for 4 injectors to fail at once from E85? Extremely unlikely. Its much more likely that some form of contamination that made its way through the entire system failed the injectors, or like I said before, an improper tune.
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      09-15-2013, 10:04 AM   #43
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I think this post ran away all on it's own. Been running about a 50/50 mix with a Cobb tune, fbo, no jb4 since October last year not every time I fill up though. Car ran 11.76 at MIR with street tires and a 60ft of 1.94. The driveability and dependability has been great. This is my only car. Approx 8-10 full tanks and again zero issues.

If I had to use my subjective experience to draw a conclusion about the safety/reliability of e85 I would say it is safe and reliable BUT I do know there are enormous amounts of variables that I haven't accounted for and many that are unknown to me. So I cannot make that statement because that would be like me stating the following premises and conclusions:
I drink Gatorade a lot.
I drank Gatorade yesterday and fractured my ankle.
Conclusion is that Gatorade is dangerous because it predisposes me to ankle fractures.

This is simplistic but we do it ALL the time. U hear about a mod that "changes the whole feel of a car", "transforms the car", " I'm aware of every nook and cranny on the road" , etc. etc. we know that these are subjective statements. We all make them in varying degrees. They are important, if they weren't, u would'nt be reading this forum to gain insight but instead would read an engineering,physics or chemistry textbook, or some maintenance Manual etc where everything is objectively stated.

Objective facts and subjective exp are both important.

Anyways thought I'd say this since I see a lot of folks here who share an experience which sometimes is not worded correctly and they get Hammered. I am not a very smart dude and i am not totally knowledgeable on our cars but I know that even someone like Terry does'nt make recommendations specifically to you, he may give you advice but will always give you a couple of options for You to make the decision.

This thread was not a closed yes or no question. It was not even a question but advice based on an opinion. The comments or answers should not be stated as objective facts. Reliability; how do we define this? Is there a specific metric that we need to use? I do not want a a reliable car that runs 14 sec 1/4 mile times. So reliability is relative to what we want or need. Safety; another one of those terms that means something diff to everyone on this forum.
If anyone is looking for dependability please allow BMW to do the research and testing and go with that since they have deeper pockets than any individual here or our entire forum combined. In other words leave ur car the hell alone!
In short, u just wasted a little of ur life reading my opinion which is just that and maybe completely inaccurate. Moral of story, use the forum to ur advantage but as technical as a thread may sound , if u read it critically, u will spot a bunch of objective BS in it! And that's ok, we love BS, we are ADDICTS like the forum calls us. Just be gracious when commenting and have fun.

Now I'm going to go watch a bunch of NFL " analysts" speak a bunch of BS during the pregame show. But I will watch it completely and it won't mean crap to me , some of these "analysts" will get hammered by others.

Lastly, this hasn't been stated so I'll have to say this: 1 thing I DO Know about E85. "Since I began using E85 my sex life has dramatically improved! I even think that anatomically I've made some gains". I'm sure many of u will agree with me, it's an aphrodisiac if u find the right mix and have the proper bolt ons.
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      09-15-2013, 12:57 PM   #44
ervgotti01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
By this logic, the filters would melt with any kind of fuel, because the oil runs over 212 degrees.... Until you realize that the fuel is cooling the injector at all times. Then your point is moot because you really have no idea how hot the injectors get.




The problem is that you've provided no proof that E85 did anything to your injectors. And alot of time there is no way to provide proof, so you shouldn't blame it just on the gas. Do you know how unlikely it is for 4 injectors to fail at once from E85? Extremely unlikely. Its much more likely that some form of contamination that made its way through the entire system failed the injectors, or like I said before, an improper tune.
Read that thread again. The engineer who was analyzing our injectors said he had problems with the filters melting at 100 Celsius when running E85. He said and I quote " As long as the temperature of the injector stays under the 100 Celsius, this engine is perferctly capable to run E85. As a matter of fact, it will run E100 without any problem under cold conditions".

There is no way in hell our injectors are running less than 100 Celsius especially since they are directly connected to the head. If the N54 was port injected I can see it not hitting 100 celsius. So please actually read the thread before posting non sense. There are plenty of times when you drive when cruising foot off the accelerator that fuel is not being injected, which leads to the fuel not being cycled through to cool the injectors. Or how about say after an hour drive operating temp at 240 F you shut down the car? Those injectors are no longer cycling fuel and those injectors will sit there and bake.

As far as your other statement, Can I be 100% E85 caused this? No. Can you Be 100% will not cause this? No. With the engineer stating that E85 at 100 Celsius can cause injector failure it is likely that you can have a catastrophic of multiple injecotrs as they will all be operating at the same temperature + or minus a couple of degrees.

Your improper tune theory is stupid. You can tune an engine to run perfectly on E85, but you can not tune an engine to prevent wear on hardware components ie injectors, plugs, water pump, coil packs ect ect. That's like saying if you tune an engine properly your spark plugs should not wear out. What we're looking at here is premature failure of the injectors due to E85.
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