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09-11-2007, 12:48 PM | #23 |
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The problem with the 335 as it comes in the US is brake fade, not braking power. At the very least, replacing pads on the 335 is mandatory before venturing to the track. You don't have to do that with the STI. Perhaps the arrival of the six piston fronts won't require this, we just don't know yet.
Another bugger for the 335 is heat. I'm sure you've read some of the oil temps experienced by those that have tracked their 335's, and perhaps even entered limp mode. Not good. And of course everyone knows you have to junk the runflats, as you point out. I'm not sure which model is referenced in the time above, but the USDM STI's are essentially the JDM Spec C's (save the more powerful EJ257 2.5L in the USDM STI), and the old Spec-C did very well:
But lap times weren't my point. Where lap times are recorded the 135 will do quite well, especially on open tracks where the lack of LSD isn't such an issue. My point behind "track ready" is that you can take your STI from the showroom floor straight to a track and do a weekend HPDE. You don't need new tires or brake pads. You don't have to worry about underhood temps. That was the only point I meant by track ready. I could honestly care less about lap times, other than the fact they can tell me that a car is well-sorted or not. I have run HPDE's on road courses, but being a HPDE I'm not concerned with ultimate lap times, I'm much more concerned with how comfortable I feel piloting the vehicle. Really, "feel" is much more important than speed to me. Especially on the street. And honestly, if all I cared about was lap times, I'd actually have an EVO. Won't put my family in that the IX, though. Maybe the X. |
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09-11-2007, 12:54 PM | #24 | |
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Feel is what I want - it has to feel better than the sum of its parts (the well-sorted out bit). I am looking for a GT car, that means Grand Touring. Some of these posters are looking for BIW (Body In White) race cars. If they really want a race car, why are they looking at a sporting/luxurious BMW then? ; -) |
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09-11-2007, 01:04 PM | #25 |
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I don't know what the differences are between the sti's listed. But with a 20 second differential, it's gotta be a bit of everything.
I agree that to be as track ready as a STI/EVO, a 135i will most likely need pads, non-runflats. It would probably take a LSD as well to get you on par in the "feel" department. I just find it amazing that you can get so much more car and be right in the STI/EVO track ready territory for close to the same price. Also, the N54 is very underrated. My 335i dynoed @283 whp AND 287 wTQ stock on a mustang dyno. Even if you figure a minimal 15% drivetrain loss your at 325bhp/330btq. Oh and this dyno was done at Cobb tuning's facility(you've probably heard of them ). I think the extra horses make up for a bit of the difference. This dyno was at 4200 ft elevation. FYI, for anyone who's followed the heat soak issue, it was because the early 335i models (including mine, built november 06') we're without oil cooler's. Since march 07 all 335i's are now receiveing these OCs and any built prior are receiving free retrofit's (including mine). Before the oil cooler, under heavy driving (with my friends evo's and other friends nissan skyline gt-t) in the canyons I would hover around 280 degrees oil temp, since the retrofit, I don't get over 260, limp mode isn't induced until 300 BTW. Also, the AT's create significantly more heat then the MT's. Even before the oil cooler retrofits, the MT's we're seeing much cooler temps then the AT's. Which is the logical choice for track stars. I have AT. |
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09-11-2007, 01:29 PM | #26 |
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I think I've heard of Cobb before.
Glad to hear that the temp issue is coming under control. The N54 is certainly a good powerplant, and the 135 will be a wickedly fast car, for sure. Let's just hope BMW gives us the goodies with this one. I definitely think if BMW prices this thing at the $35k price point the EVOs and STIs will look less attractive to many due to the extra amenties the BMW will bring to the table. I would love to see that. *That STI Spec-C is the JDM STI. Our USDM STIs are essentially the SPEC C. There are many versions of STIs all around the world; Japan gets the absolute fastest (Spec C RA-R) and we get the next fastest (which is essentially the standard JDM SPEC C with the EJ257 2.5L in place of the 2.0, and with airbags and normal windscreen glass). I would also add that "so much more car" depends upon the driver's perspecitve. We're all looking for different things. |
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09-11-2007, 02:41 PM | #28 |
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When I was at cobb tuning, they had a project suby. Can't remember which one, but it was a two door, they said it was the lightest stock suby they could find. Then they put in the 3.6 liter (?) v6 and proceeded to turbo it, pushing around 550whp. They took everything out of the inside with a goal of getting it down to 2600 lbs. They basically did everything you could think of, what a little beast. They said it was for some race in japan. They wanted to set the lap record. It looked evil.
Suby's are cool. I couldn't daily drive one. I'm too lazy for all that work these days. |
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09-11-2007, 02:59 PM | #30 | |
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T-1 until the 135 is unwrapped. We should see some first drives quite soon, as I believe they are in the hands of journos this week. "All that work" is indeed a decent way of putting it. Driving the STi isn't hard, per se, but it is visceral and certainly not relaxing. |
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09-11-2007, 04:16 PM | #31 | ||||
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During the Ring laps, the oil temp stayed at 260. I'll try to do a short track in my 335 in October (Summit Point Jefferson Circuit) to see how the brakes and oil temps are hanging. I also have a small power increase via the Juice Box S1 (boost controller) which if anything should heat up the oil a little more. My car has the Sport Package with 6sp, thus the oil cooler. Somebody has pointed out that I could alternatively switch to the "Motorsport formulation" 10W60, which is what BMW uses in the latest M cars, and which apparently can lower oil temps by an easy 10-20 degrees. I don't view changing pads and/or fluids as major surgery. If I ended up with a 135i and it were needed, I could easily install a larger oil cooler to take care of track oil temp spikes - and even then I would not balk at upgrading these minor things. But I do take your point about the STI being more track-ready. Doesn't this come with a higher maintenace cost though? On the Evo, it does (5k mi tires, 5k mi oil, 10k mi service etc.). Quote:
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09-11-2007, 04:55 PM | #33 | |
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09-11-2007, 05:12 PM | #34 |
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As a Legacy owner, I have to say the interior quality has much improved for Subaru in the past 3-4 years. I have seen the sedan 08 WRX in person and feel it is a sharp looking car and definately more put together than past efforts.
I am disappointed that the STi is rumored to only be made available in a hatch. I just like sedans I guess. I am conversely very interested in seeing what comes out for 09 as it is rumored Subaru will bring a DI engine to market. This combination with the STi powerplant will be dramatic to say the least. |
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09-11-2007, 06:05 PM | #35 |
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The new STI is a wagon only which I actually like. I wish we were getting the 5 door 135 too, I would buy that over the coupe in an instant. I'm still young but eventually plan on having a family and would to be able to get a baby seat in there easily.
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09-11-2007, 08:11 PM | #36 | |||||
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The 1er's EURO NCAP results look pretty good, I'd be comfortable with that. One thing I will say about the STI: the brake dust is as bad as BMW. Sucks. :tongue: |
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09-12-2007, 03:02 AM | #37 |
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I think Ducati nailed the differences in his original post, and has already made some excellent technical points in his answers to all of the questions that have been asked.
I think that the Sti competes with the 135 for a small segment of potential 1er buyers. The Sti is designed primarily for performance, and the 135 is designed for a much bigger market. Why would BMW make a trackable car when the majority of the buyers have no intention of pushing their car to its limits?? Let's face it, if you ask the the majority of 135 buyers f they have an LSD, they'd probably think you were propositioning them for drugs. The AWD is a big difference between the two cars, and this fact alone might make the 1er impractical to many potential buyers that live in snow country that want a car they can love to drive all year long. I mostly love the 1er styling (except for the rear), and I actually like the pix I've seen of the 2008 Sti, but I'd like to see many more pix to be sure. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that these two cars really do compete for the same buyers, even if some Subie drivers would never consider the Sti, and vice versa...I hope that makes sense. |
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09-12-2007, 05:44 AM | #38 | |
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I should use this on my blog, if you would let me. |
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09-12-2007, 07:22 AM | #39 |
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krassanova, makes good sense.
Sure, Irv, feel free to quote my ramblings. Glad you liked my little review. I'm coming to Chicago for a Bears game in a few weeks, if I end up driving I'll stop by with the STI. |
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09-12-2007, 07:44 AM | #40 |
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09-12-2007, 08:18 AM | #41 | |
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The STi, especially the '04, was a raw race car for the street. Mine did not even have a radio in it for 3 months. It was loud and rode rough. It was fast though and that made up for it. As far as kicking the tail out, you can do it on an AWD too. You just better be prepared for it, it behaves a little different than a RWD. |
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09-12-2007, 08:29 AM | #42 | |
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Regardless, i think the STi is looking better in these pics: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=274 |
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09-12-2007, 09:53 AM | #43 | |
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I think this applies to the STI as well: only a minority of them see track duty. Most owners seem to be overly concerned with extracting another 100BHP out of them for the so important street meets. :smile: I think the 135i will be the most tracked BMW of the entire generation. Used to be the E36 M3, because they were relatively affordable even when new, and downright cheap used - I'm getting the vibe that many of these people can't wait to switch to the 135i. If - big if - it will deliver.
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