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Why BMW needs turbo for E54 engine to acheive 306hp?
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02-18-2006, 11:59 AM | #45 | |
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The other strategy they might take is to not bank on high volume sales and place the 335 above the 330 (additional model in the line-up) with a premium similar to what you are talking about (5K or so). This has the effect of having the 3-series again seen as the definitive performance sedan even if the bulk of people continue to buy 325s (in North America at least). I actually believe the move to a turbo is a pretty shrewd one on the part of BMW, and not only for technical/performance reasons. Having a turbo 6 in the line-up gives them a very inexpensive way to offer a variety of performance levels w/o significant re-engineering. Expect to see the horsepower/torque incremement as required to keep the competition at bay. The idea of a 335i and later on a 335si seems perfectly reasonable to me. Those who think that the N54 makes the N52 obsolete should watch for how quickly the 335 cars get a performance boost! The last thing I'll add (and I've been thinking this for a while), is that at lot of people here assume that the 335 would be an E90 with a more powerful engine. To me, it is not like BMW to do that. I would not be at all surprised if there are suspension upgrades and other modifications to ensure the power is well used. Certainly this would be the case for a 335si if not a 335i. This would also factor into BMW costs and would influence their decision as to whether to pitch the car as a replacement to the 330 (perhaps using a near identical chassis) or as a model above the 330. |
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02-18-2006, 01:25 PM | #46 | |
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02-18-2006, 01:50 PM | #47 |
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Can't wait for this 335 bi-turbo, although I really want their current 3.5L bi-turbo diesel engine with 410+ ft/lbs of torque at low RPM, 272 HP, and the fuel economy of a diesel at 38+ MPG if in a 3 series chassis. Now that is impressive!
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02-18-2006, 03:08 PM | #48 | |
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02-18-2006, 07:40 PM | #49 | |
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Apples and oranges. You are compairing one of the best non turbo engines to a below average turbo. And then making a generalization about turbos based on this single claim. Not a fair fight if you ask me. |
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02-18-2006, 08:14 PM | #50 | |
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Last edited by EnI; 02-18-2006 at 09:11 PM.. |
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02-18-2006, 09:39 PM | #51 | |
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02-18-2006, 10:00 PM | #52 |
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Final fine settings are done (based on road testing feedback - that's why also have a full cabin of laptops and other devices in test cars, - where they also compare the new car to the existing competiton) in final engineerinng pilot phase. Just before final evaluation pilot & production are done.
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02-18-2006, 10:09 PM | #53 | |
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02-19-2006, 08:13 AM | #54 | |
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02-19-2006, 08:32 AM | #55 | |
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I would like to see the 335d or 335Cd too. In my opinion it would a much more impressive car, especially in Europe where fuel prices are very high (f@#$ing taxes). This twin-turbo has 272bhp and it can be without any problems tuned to 310 bhp and over 600 Nm. I hope that Munich decides to unveil this Diesel rocket in 3 Series. |
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02-19-2006, 09:21 AM | #56 |
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I second the request for the 3.5 twin turbo diesel -- class-leading power with high fuel economy. best of both worlds. I just wish BMW would bring diesel to the states at least the 3.0 liter). I will hold out for another year for their diesel, otherwise I may have to purchase the Merc 320 cdi with their new v6.
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02-19-2006, 10:08 AM | #57 | |
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HP doesn't mean shit! Torque is where it's at. Incredible torque gives you great 0-60 times. HP = Top Speed #'s and where the hell in the US are we going to use that? Last edited by SCA; 02-19-2006 at 10:48 AM.. |
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02-19-2006, 10:42 AM | #58 |
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Of course, and auto manufacturer marketers take advantage of that, selling high HP engines with no torque at all, and that HP can only be used at 7000 RPM. Honda is great at fooling people, think S2000, which is a great sports car, but high-strung and you need to shift like crazy to maintain high RPMs to ever see any power.
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02-19-2006, 10:47 AM | #59 | |
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02-19-2006, 10:59 AM | #60 | |
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Example from oilbelcher, the Honda S2000. 237hp @ 7800 rpm and 162 ft-lb of torque in a car weighting 2855. Sorry, but if this car had more torque it would be something to talk about. Have you ever owned a car with high HP and little torque? I have and still do. You have to rev the absolute piss out of it for it too move at a fast speed. |
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02-19-2006, 12:19 PM | #61 | |
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So hey, yeah, I guess torque doesn't cut it on it's own either. |
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02-19-2006, 12:35 PM | #62 | |
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Here's an interesting bit of trivia; below 5252 rpm any engine's torque number will always be higher than its horsepower number, and above 5252 rpm any engine's horsepower number will always be higher than its torque number. At 5252 rpm the horsepower and torque numbers will be exactly the same. First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same. In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising. However, as I said, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*. Looking at top speed, horsepower wins, in the sense that making more torque at high rpm means you can use a stiffer gear for any given car speed,and thus have more effective torque *at the drive wheels*. Finally, operating at the power peak means you are doing the absolute best you can at any given car speed, measuring torque at the drive wheels. I know I said that acceleration follows the torque curve in any given gear,but if you factor in gearing vs. car speed, the power peak is *it*. A BMW example will illustrate this.At the 4250 rpm torque peak, a 3 liter E36 M3 is doing about 57 mph in third gear, and, as mentioned previously, it will pull the hardest in that gear at that speed when you floor it, discounting wind and rolling resistance. In point of fact (and ignoring both drive train power losses and rotational inertia), the rear wheels are getting 1177 foot pounds of torque thrown at them at 57 mph (225 foot pounds, times the third gear ratio of 1.66:1, times the final drive ratio of 3.15:1), so the car will bang you back very nicely at that point. However, if you were to regear the car so that it is at its power peak at 57 mph, you'd have to change the final drive ratio to approximately 4.45:1. With that final drive ratio installed, you'd be at 6000 rpm in third gear, where the engine is making 240 hp. Going back to our trusty formula, you can ascertain that the engine is down to 210 foot pounds of torque at that point(240 times 5252, divided by 6000), but if you do the arithmetic (210 foot pounds, times 1.66, times the 4.45), you can see that you are now getting 1551 foot pounds of torque at the rear wheels, making for a nearly 32% more satisfying.Any other rpm (other than the power peak) at a given car speed will net you a lower torque value at the drive wheels. This would be true of any car on the planet, so, theoretical "best" top speed will always occur when a given vehicle is operating at its power peak.
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Last edited by mapezzul; 02-19-2006 at 03:21 PM.. |
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02-19-2006, 02:08 PM | #63 | |
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http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html |
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02-19-2006, 02:10 PM | #64 | |
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Personally, I'd prefer 270-290hp and 310-320 lb-ft of torque. |
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02-19-2006, 02:11 PM | #65 |
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mapezzul, great info. Wish you would have put paragraphs in to make it easier to read.
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02-19-2006, 03:18 PM | #66 | |
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I do not say this lightly, but there are some very ignorant people here on these boards. Let me explain, BMW is a premiere engine building in the world. The N54 has been in development for 3 years, it's a completely new design that offers a brand new fuel delivery and an impressive Forced Induction system. A 3.0 liter I-6 with approx 4psi of boost putting out 306hp and 296 ft/lbs or torque is excellent. The engine is very light, it more fuel efficient than the previous engine and maintains it's smooth idle and silky smooth acceleration characteristics. Turbo's have many benifits with very few downfalls. The BMW's design of Bi-Turbo allows for lag free spool-up of the turbos and 296ft/lbs of torque at 1500 - 5800rpms ...!! That means the 335ci will have more TORQUE just above idle than you have max in the 2005 M3 ..! BMW builds MACHINES, not cars... everything works together, completly and it's fully refined. Thus, they will couple this new engine (N54) with a properly designed tranny. How someone cannot dicern the differences between this and the Lexus V6 is beyond me. The N54 is superior in every aspect. My guess is that it's alot lighter, more fuel efficient. Has more HP and Torque, better reponse and way smoother. We will have to wait, but the lexus offers nothing in terms of technology. My 1999 Covette coupe had 345 horsepower from a V8. The BMW 335 will have 306 horsepower and weigh about the same. It will roughly have about the same amount of torque from 1500-4000rpms ...! After that the Inline-6 can't keep up with the big V8's Cubic inches. NOW... BMW is making this car for the street and it is not a SPORTS car. Thus they are only config the engine with a small amount of boost. I highly doubt BMW is dumb and have no clue what they are doing as many in this thread has suggested. There will undoubtedly be overhead built into this engine. Increase in boost (possibly software) = increase in HP/tq. But BMW does not need more than 310hp for the normal 3 series (non M) they are FAST as it is. This car will be a demon !! |
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