Spun at autox and the car shut off...will it store a code?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by JimD

Sounds like DSC was completely disengaged. I left mine completely engaged the one autocross I've done so far. Any ideas how much it helps your time to turn it off?

I saw one guy in a Z4 M (or whatever the correct designation is) hit a guard rail head on after loosing control on a uphill turn. It didn't make me want to turn DSC off on my 2 month old car. There were also a few spin outs but I did not notice any smoke (they went onto grass).

Jim

I watched an episode of Top Gear where they ran a BMW 330i sedan, that drove their course with no driver input. Jeremy Clarkson was in the driver seat, but just as a passenger. BMW has a system that uses an extremely accurate GPS system that "learns" the track as someone drives the course.
Once it's ready, the car runs the course on it's own.
It was AMAZING how fast it drove the course. I'm not positive, but I think the system drove the course faster than the STIG, or it was about the same.

Either way, it was extremely impressive on how it drove the course, driving all the way to the edge of the track on some sections.
I think the DSC/DTC was on the whole time, as I don't recall them saying the systems were turned off.

So, if that is any indication, I'd say the DSC/DTC doesn't hamper track times. If the driver were able to drive the car like the automated system does, then he'd be incredibly fast while having the safety mechanism in place.

If was fun and funny to watch Clarkson yelling, "brake, brake!!", as the car drove really deep into the turns with extreme control.
It shows that even someone as good at driving as Clarkson, still doesn't use the cars potential fully, as he would have applied the brakes much sooner, and thus slowed his run a good bit. There is obviously a lot more in the 330i than Clarkson feels comfortable using.
This was a stock 3, except of course for the system that does the driving, meaning; stock power, stock brakes, stock tires, etc..., no race mods.

I found the youtube clip.
Watch it, it's really cool.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Evice

Sometimes engines stall. I'd not worry about it.

And about DSC: It always throws me off especially in over-steer situation. Because it "lifts" the throttle and does some weird braking at the back end to correct it, whereas my mind says more throttle is needed with opposite lock. Well, as you can imagine when you have opposite lock with braking rear end, the whole work starts crumbling down, and it makes it harder to manage )

Yes, DSC might not be as fun, but it can do things that we can't do given the controls we have, which is 1 brake pedal that applies brake force to all the brakes. I think the system can portion more front to rear force, but we can't control braking at one wheel only the way the DSC system can.
In effect, the DSC can do what we can't to help control an over steer.
It can keep power on AND brake one wheel if needed. The throttle is reduced, but it's not lifted completely, unless it needs to be. The system can apply throttle judiciously as needed.
Sure, it won't allow power on over steer, which is fun and can look cool, but that isn't the fastest way around a track.
Drifting isn't about how fast a driver can get through a course. It's more about controlling an over steer and looking cool doing it.

The Top Gear video demonstrates that if you have the correct line, and brake where needed and in the right amount, you can apply throttle and power so that an over steer is avoided in the first place.
Having to control an over steer implies braking was not done properly for the given turn, and throttle input was incorrect, and/or steering input was not precise enough. But, that's the whole point and fun part of driving, which is to say, we humans are attempting to control something that is by it's nature, out of control. Correcting one's mistake is part of the fun and expertise of driving.

[Castr_85M]

Brokenvert where do you go auto-xing? I'm in lower NY, I'm always in freeporT.

[BrokenVert]

RPM90. Have you heard of the scandanavian flick? It's the fastest way around a corner for rally drivers and it involves controling an oversteer situation. I'm not saying that that's what I'm trying to do in the 1. But I am saying that what you said in your post isn't 100% true.

Originally Posted by alofoque

Brokenvert where do you go auto-xing? I'm in lower NY, I'm always in freeporT.

I've done BMWCCA and SCCA events in the Nassau colliseum parking lot. There is one on June 5th with the BMWCCA there and I'm most likely going. I want to start running some PCA events at Tow Bay off of ocean parkway. I've herd that the PCA guys are pretty chill

[rsjean]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

RPM90. Have you heard of the scandanavian flick? It's the fastest way around a corner for rally drivers and it involves controling an oversteer situation. I'm not saying that that's what I'm trying to do in the 1. But I am saying that what you said in your post isn't 100% true.

Agreed. DSC is designed to keep the car firmly planted on the pavement at the expense of speed. What you are describing is, to me, one of the ultimate rushes of tracking a car. Heading toward the apex of a turn, especially long cuves with multiple apex points, and applying just enough throttle to break the rear end loose so that it can continue to slide out just enough to keep the nose pointed to your trackout point and at a speed the car just can not sustain if the rear end had to stay firmly planted to drive the front end around the curve. Gives you a sustained progressive apex point.

Probably not describing it well but when it happens correctly you certainly know it. Probably a lot like drifting through the corner but less lateral play and more forward drive to keep the corner speed and distance efficient.

I need a track.......

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RPM90

So, if that is any indication, I'd say the DSC/DTC doesn't hamper track times. If the driver were able to drive the car like the automated system does, then he'd be incredibly fast while having the safety mechanism in place.

Only someone who's never had their car on a track would say that. Seriously. The DSC comes in VERY early, and constantly over reacts.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

RPM90. Have you heard of the scandanavian flick? It's the fastest way around a corner for rally drivers and it involves controling an oversteer situation. I'm not saying that that's what I'm trying to do in the 1. But I am saying that what you said in your post isn't 100% true.



I've done BMWCCA and SCCA events in the Nassau colliseum parking lot. There is one on June 5th with the BMWCCA there and I'm most likely going. I want to start running some PCA events at Tow Bay off of ocean parkway. I've herd that the PCA guys are pretty chill

We are!

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

And the dsc versus timyoyo thing. Idk I prefer timyoyo. I ran with traction control on last season and it made the car understeer like crazy, and sometmes the fastest way around a corner is with a touch of the tail kicking out...its also just a lot more fun, and at the end of the day im at autox for fun.

I would definitely run with DSC off during an auto-x. On a track at higher speeds, it still makes me a little nervous. I'm sure that will change with more seat time.

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

RPM90. Have you heard of the scandanavian flick? It's the fastest way around a corner for rally drivers and it involves controling an oversteer situation. I'm not saying that that's what I'm trying to do in the 1. But I am saying that what you said in your post isn't 100% true.

A well executed Scandinavian flick can set you up for the next corner, but I've only seen it on rally stages (be it gravel, snow, or tarmac). I'm not sure if this translates to quicker times on a road course. I'm not saying it can't, I've just never seen the technique used during a race on a road course.

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Only someone who's never had their car on a track would say that. Seriously. The DSC comes in VERY early, and constantly over reacts.

Yeah, I have noticed the DSC intrude several times while on the track. Usually when I hit my line, the DSC does not intervene and I'm quick through the corner. The times that it has was either when I was working on trail braking, or when I have missed the line and tried to compensate with additional throttle. I'm just going to have to disable it one of these days.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Yes, DSC might not be as fun, but it can do things that we can't do given the controls we have, which is 1 brake pedal that applies brake force to all the brakes. I think the system can portion more front to rear force, but we can't control braking at one wheel only the way the DSC system can.
In effect, the DSC can do what we can't to help control an over steer.
It can keep power on AND brake one wheel if needed. The throttle is reduced, but it's not lifted completely, unless it needs to be. The system can apply throttle judiciously as needed.
Sure, it won't allow power on over steer, which is fun and can look cool, but that isn't the fastest way around a track.
Drifting isn't about how fast a driver can get through a course. It's more about controlling an over steer and looking cool doing it.

The Top Gear video demonstrates that if you have the correct line, and brake where needed and in the right amount, you can apply throttle and power so that an over steer is avoided in the first place.
Having to control an over steer implies braking was not done properly for the given turn, and throttle input was incorrect, and/or steering input was not precise enough. But, that's the whole point and fun part of driving, which is to say, we humans are attempting to control something that is by it's nature, out of control. Correcting one's mistake is part of the fun and expertise of driving.

One of the posters summed it up really beautifully.

"DSC is designed to keep the car firmly planted on the pavement at the expense of speed".

I merely gave my experience from track. I can give you the exact place.
Mid-Ohio Turn 1. If your back end comes loose at 85 - 90mph, there is no godly DSC that can keep you on track other than you controlling your backend with throttle and opposite lock. And no thank you, I will not try it. I will stick with my own controls.

[///M1]

I think a driver very familiar with both the car and track can achieve marginally better times with DTC off. I had a couple of days with my RS4 at Infineon Raceway, the first day it was all with both Traction and Stability control on (was required), second day we could switch off Traction (but still keep Stability). While my best lap was with TC off, it wasn't a clear pattern that every lap with TC off was better than with no TC off. However, I recon with more familiarity of the course (say several track days), one can achieve consistently better lap times with electronics off.

Now, a lot depends on how intrusive these electronics are. For example, on the 135i I find them interfering way too much relative to the Audi. So it will def make for more of a white knuckle drive, but if you have familiarity with the car and can control it well, as well as experience with the specific track, I recon you can acheive better times without the electronic nannies.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

RPM90. Have you heard of the scandanavian flick? It's the fastest way around a corner for rally drivers and it involves controling an oversteer situation. I'm not saying that that's what I'm trying to do in the 1. But I am saying that what you said in your post isn't 100% true.



I've done BMWCCA and SCCA events in the Nassau colliseum parking lot. There is one on June 5th with the BMWCCA there and I'm most likely going. I want to start running some PCA events at Tow Bay off of ocean parkway. I've herd that the PCA guys are pretty chill

I wasn't talking rally. I mean, it's quite obvious that on those surfaces you're nearly always in some form of slide.
The expertise there is to control those events as much as you can, which is why rally drivers are quite respected for their skills.

I'm talking about road course surfaces.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Only someone who's never had their car on a track would say that. Seriously. The DSC comes in VERY early, and constantly over reacts.

I've no taken my 135i to a track yet.
Plan is to go to Gingerman (Michigan) this summer.

"So, if that is any indication, I'd say the DSC/DTC doesn't hamper track times. If the driver were able to drive the car like the automated system does, then he'd be incredibly fast while having the safety mechanism in place."

Note that I use the word "If", a couple of times. It shows that my statement is predicated on a condition, and is not made to be definitive in the absence of that condition. It's an uncertain possibility, as it's conditional.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ///M1

I think a driver very familiar with both the car and track can achieve marginally better times with DTC off. I had a couple of days with my RS4 at Infineon Raceway, the first day it was all with both Traction and Stability control on (was required), second day we could switch off Traction (but still keep Stability). While my best lap was with TC off, it wasn't a clear pattern that every lap with TC off was better than with no TC off. However, I recon with more familiarity of the course (say several track days), one can achieve consistently better lap times with electronics off.

Now, a lot depends on how intrusive these electronics are. For example, on the 135i I find them interfering way too much relative to the Audi. So it will def make for more of a white knuckle drive, but if you have familiarity with the car and can control it well, as well as experience with the specific track, I recon you can acheive better times without the electronic nannies.

I agree that it greatly depends on how intrusive the system is.
If it's a complete nanny, as it is in most family type cars, then it's not fun at all. But, if the system does allow good leeway so that the driver can enjoy himself, yet still come in to aide, then it could be helpful.

The system in that 330i could have been shut off, we don't know for certain. Or, it could have been calibrated differently from the for-sale model.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Evice

One of the posters summed it up really beautifully.

"DSC is designed to keep the car firmly planted on the pavement at the expense of speed".

I merely gave my experience from track. I can give you the exact place.
Mid-Ohio Turn 1. If your back end comes loose at 85 - 90mph, there is no godly DSC that can keep you on track other than you controlling your backend with throttle and opposite lock. And no thank you, I will not try it. I will stick with my own controls.

I'd like to ask; you say "If your back end comes loose...."
Do you mean to say that every car that runs that course looses the rear, and thus the only way around that turn is to slide it?
Or, do you mean that if a driver overcooks the entry speed he risks loosing the rear end?
Or, something else?

What would you say is the ideal method of getting through that turn the fastest way?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I've no taken my 135i to a track yet.
Plan is to go to Gingerman (Michigan) this summer.

"So, if that is any indication, I'd say the DSC/DTC doesn't hamper track times. If the driver were able to drive the car like the automated system does, then he'd be incredibly fast while having the safety mechanism in place."

Note that I use the word "If", a couple of times. It shows that my statement is predicated on a condition, and is not made to be definitive in the absence of that condition. It's an uncertain possibility, as it's conditional.

Ok, but that car isn't an indication. It's been specially calibrated, and I'd be willing to bet they spent DAYS teaching it to get around that course like that, and tweaking the DSC to do so.

That's not the reality with our cars. If you leave the DSC on, the first time you lift the inside rear tire coming out of a tight turn it will shut you down, and you'll loose time. The fact that the rear diff is completely open with the DSC on makes it slower around the track.

[scorcherjf]

Leaving DSC on will also chew up your rear brakes waaay quicker than the fronts. When you start bringing in the car for rear brake replacement quicker than the fronts they start to get curious =)

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

Leaving DSC on will also chew up your rear brakes waaay quicker than the fronts. When you start bringing in the car for rear brake replacement quicker than the fronts they start to get curious =)

But the "e-diff" mode also use the rear brakes to slow the spinning wheel. Obviously not at much as DSC would though.

[Evice]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I'd like to ask; you say "If your back end comes loose...."
Do you mean to say that every car that runs that course looses the rear, and thus the only way around that turn is to slide it?
Or, do you mean that if a driver overcooks the entry speed he risks loosing the rear end?
Or, something else?

What would you say is the ideal method of getting through that turn the fastest way?

I use "Your backend comes loose" as in simple oversteer situation.

No not all the cars over-steers in that corner. However think about a late passing situation where you are on the early apex line with higher speed then you should because you were passing and now add that to this situation where your back end comes loose(oversteers), because of your initial turnin.

You need to put more power down, hold tight on the steering wheel with some opposite lock and ease off the steering gentle to adjust to the turn, you don't want too much or too long opposite lock which causes most of crashes to the walls inside a turn.. The idea is not to "Slide" to be fast, it is to not to go off the track or wrap your back around you and get hit by a car behind you.

I am in no way saying sliding is the fastest way. I am saying that in a situation unexpected like oversteer, your reaction/inputs as a driver coupled with DSC system might have an outcome worse then the outcome when only you inputting with DSC turned off.

However there is a saying that on the track out, your butt should feel a little oversteer if you are at the limit or fast!~

A little clearer?