2 issues with my 1M: inyector change + brakes

[Dr_zito]

Hi, just to let you know and gather information about these two issues.

#1 Inyector change: My car started
- having difficulty in starting the engine in the morning
- making a strange noise while idle, as if I had changed the exhaust.
-revs moving from 300 to 700 while in idle, alternating

Please excuse my English as it is not my native language.
I took it to the dealer and the scanner indicated there was an issue with "fuel" and later on they indicated 6 inyectors needed to be changed. This was done under warranty. Today the car was delivered back to me and those 3 things are gone.

#2 Noise+Vibraton in the left forward wheel
After the last track day I started feeling some vibration in the steering wheel and a strange feeling when braking normally. It certainly is different from what it was before. The mechanic at the dealer indicated that he felt the same thing when he went for a drive with the new inyectors. In his view the discs are "fuck...d". He suggested I take the car for a revision of the discs. BMW seems to have a pattern or something similar to check the discs status that will indicate if the discs are useless or not.

FYi each vented disc for the 1M is USD 985 here..... and to this I should add the brake pads and sensors. I

Has anyone experienced similar issues?

Thanks!

[fastauto]

I had the same issue with my injectors. BMW replaced them and the fuel pump under warranty. The braking issue sounds like deposit build up. It happens when you hang on the brakes too long on track. If you change your braking technique your problem won't reoccur. For your current rotors just replace or get some super aggressive pads to eat away at the deposits.

[smq42]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

Brake vibration is a known issue on 1M's that are tracked.

I cool down my rotors when coming off the track, but still had the problem.

I have had 2 sets of front pairs and 1 rear pair replaced by BMW under goodwill. 3rd set of fronts started to vibrate yet again and BMW would no longer honour their warranty, so I replaced the front rotor at my own expense with ECS Tuning rotors. No issues since upgrading rotors.

BMW's last repsonse to my dealer was that the brakes are not under warranty for cars that are tracked.

Same issue w brakes. Already through one set of front rotors (after 6 track days) and 3 sets of pads. Initially the vibration was attributed to "buildup" on the rotors but when it didn't stop, they replaced the rotors and found they were warped.


So far everything covered under BMW USA warranty!

Good suggestion to upgrade rotors. I'll probably do this when the warranty runs out.

[Piets94]

Same issue with brakes as others have said. Warped front rotors after 1 track day! No warranty for this in Australia as tracking a car is not covered... for a 1M? I refuse to believe that this car was not engineered with the expectation that it wouldn't be tracked at some point. Ian, you're pretty lucky. I couldn't even get one set of rotors out of them!

The issue is cooling. No proper ducting to the brakes (duct radiators instead). Solution#1 is a brake duct kit/hoses which should keep the stock rotors in better shape +/-better rotors. I'm stumping up for some PFC direct drive rotors and some ducting.

[Simsims]

what are the chances of retrofitting the new m3/4 carbon ceramic brakes?

[M3 Adjuster]

Sorry for those with brake woes , but I disagree that the issue is with the vehicle. If that were the case then * every* 1M owner that tracks their car would have issues.

My car has been on 15 different race tracks. Still on the first set of rotors. I have used multiple sets of OEM pads, PFC Z rated pads and also used PFC 01 track pads. I currently have PFC 08s on deck and ready to go.

I have tracked my car at eagles canyon in Texas ( one of the tougher tracks on brakes I know of ) with 102 degree ambient temps and I have braked repeatedly from an indicated 140-150mph (COTA, TWS, Mid Ohio) into slow 50-70 mph corners during typical 25-30 min sessions.

[S4Sprint]

I have experienced the brake issue as well. I bought the car with only 5000 miles but the original owner had tracked it one time. The brakes were a disaster. I tried initially to drive off any deposits which did not work. I then decided to take the rotors off see exactly what was wrong and perhaps mechanically grind the deposits off. What I saw when I disassembled everything was that the rotors had single deposits as if the car had been stopped when the rotors were very hot. Additionally there were lots of cracks in the rotors that took the shape of the pad. Lastly the pads were disintegrating around the perimeter. So these brakes were in terrible shape. To me it sure seems that BMW has not designed these parts for heavy use even though the car is likely to be tracked. Major mistake by them. Seems the bean counters forced the engineers to short cut what is truly needed. Anyway, BMW replaced my pads and rotors under warranty and thankfully, as this is an extremely costly job at their prices. It is like new again and very, very smooth - no vibrations and no grinding noises. See two pics below. These pics are at about 6000 miles.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by S4Sprint

I have experienced the brake issue as well. I bought the car with only 5000 miles but the original owner had tracked it one time. The brakes were a disaster. I tried initially to drive off any deposits which did not work. I then decided to take the rotors off see exactly what was wrong and perhaps mechanically grind the deposits off. What I saw when I disassembled everything was that the rotors had single deposits as if the car had been stopped when the rotors were very hot. Additionally there were lots of cracks in the rotors that took the shape of the pad. Lastly the pads were disintegrating around the perimeter. So these brakes were in terrible shape. To me it sure seems that BMW has not designed these parts for heavy use even though the car is likely to be tracked. Major mistake by them. Seems the bean counters forced the engineers to short cut what is truly needed. Anyway, BMW replaced my pads and rotors under warranty and thankfully, as this is an extremely costly job at their prices. It is like new again and very, very smooth - no vibrations and no grinding noises. See two pics below. These pics are at about 6000 miles.

It's clear that the cool down after driving was not done properly on your vehicle.

Warped areas in the shape of the pad are your clear indicator.

Warping a rotor like that is a DRIVER issue not a design issue.

It's actually kinda funny how you (correctly) attributed the issues to the previous driver.. then suddenly switched to saying BMW is part of the problem. I'm pretty sure most vehicles are gonna have issues if someone comes in off a hot track and pulls over and parks it and pulls the parking brake...

It's very nice that your dealer handled the abused parts on your vehicle under WARRANTY!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

Agree it is strange, I don't get it??

That said, since switching to ECS rotors, but using same pads, same track and conditions, I have had no further issues.

Didn't Neil create a whole cooling/ducting system on his 1M?

Neil's car has significantly more power than stock. He is also * competing * in events. That's not the same as taking a mostly stock car on a track day. So he js going to see MUCH higher wear and need higher performance of course.



As far as ECS rotors, If a different brand of rotors resolved the issue, then we know that it's *not* an issue of vehicle design ( air cooling the brakes) right ? If the vehicle design was not allowing enough cooling then all rotors would have issues....

So.. since some owners have issues... and others do not... My best guess is that the rotor supplier had an issue ( y'all don't think that BMW Makes rotors do ya? ) or driving style is a factor.

About a decade ago.. there was a run of BMW OE (Laso) water pumps for the E30 M3 S14 that would fail the INSTANT it was installed. I'm talking... massive leak or major drips seen while just warming up the vehicle to correctly fill the coolant level and before even driving. I guess if I were some people on this forum... I would be posting that BMW doesnt know how to properly design water pumps..

The simple fact is that BMW selects an OE supplier for their parts. The parts have a spec and a tolerance. Anyone that has worked in an automotive industry knows that sometimes the supplier comes up with a bad part. If that didnt ever happen.. then there would never be Quality control positions in manufacturing.


If the supplier created a run of bad parts... then this certainly makes sense for you Ian.... as another set of rotors from the same lot would of course develop the same issues... It would also make sense that until these bad parts are either returned, or eventually used up... that other owners will have issues.

Since I have so much time on my car with the current rotors and no issues.. i guess I won't be beating down my dealer door to replace my rotors.. As it is.. when I bring my car in.. they measure them to confirm they are above the min spec... ... and tell me they are fine.. And of course... yes.. mine have numerous hairline cracks in them.. They still stop my car....

[Piets94]

These are the same rotors and brakes as on the e9x M3. I don't remember reading as many forum issues with the M3 brakes as on this car. So either a lot of 1m drivers have poor brake technique (possible), or some part of the 1m brake-engineering is more susceptible to poor braking technique or just poorly designed/manufactered brakes.

I'm by no means a race driver, but have had my fair share of track days in an e36. Always cool down, no handbrake left on. My 1M rotors were shimmying after 2 laps on a track that is NOT hard on brakes.

Something is up here. I still feel that the lack of cooling is the main cause of less experienced drivers such as myself reaching the thermal limit of these rotors sooner, hence the warpage.

[S4Sprint]

So again, my comment that BMW has apparently 'not designed these parts for heavy use even though the car is likely to be tracked', is not off base. I too have read about more brake issues on the 1M than on any M3s. Absolutely something going on here. It may be faulty parts but these rotors are massive hunks of iron and to me its hard to believe they are manufactured improperly. They should not be warping and cracking. Nor should pads disintegrate. To me it is within the realm of possibility that there is an air flow issue or some reason for higher heat loads than perhaps BMW expected. Yes, some drivers may not cool the brakes properly, as with my car, but certainly others who have driven properly are frustrated by the pulsating pedal. I doubt we'll ever hear an explanation from BMW so all we can do is try to be as logical and scientific minded as possible with our posts and evaluate the data that comes in. I truly doubt that all of the drivers who have experienced brake problems don't know what they're doing and caused the problems thru bad technique. If we were talking about a handful of cases here, I would not be quick to put responsibility with BMW but there are too many to believe that the overall braking system design is not a contributor. Our M cars should have brakes capable of withstanding some track use, with proper driving technique. These are my opinions, gleaned from my personal experiences and what I read and hear from others. Some of you may not agree and that's fine. Let's hear your thoughts and importantly your rationale and have a discussion and learn from each other.

[fastauto]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

+1 to deposits and using agressive pads worth a try, but didn't work on mine.

I certainly don't hang on the brakes, rather hard on/off. IMO it is a cooling issue on the rotors. Since aftermarket rotors with better cooling and no issues.

Yea, the aggressive pad didn't work for me either but is worth a shot if he has a friend with a set. I actually had BMW replace the rotors because they were still under warranty. I changed my rotors (new stock set) and changed my braking habits and I really haven't had the issue come back. I think running some extra cooling ducts, proper pads, good fluid and stock rotors makes for a great and affordable solution.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by S4Sprint

So again, my comment that BMW has apparently 'not designed these parts for heavy use even though the car is likely to be tracked', is not off base. I too have read about more brake issues on the 1M than on any M3s. Absolutely something going on here. It may be faulty parts but these rotors are massive hunks of iron and to me its hard to believe they are manufactured improperly. They should not be warping and cracking. Nor should pads disintegrate. To me it is within the realm of possibility that there is an air flow issue or some reason for higher heat loads than perhaps BMW expected. Yes, some drivers may not cool the brakes properly, as with my car, but certainly others who have driven properly are frustrated by the pulsating pedal. I doubt we'll ever hear an explanation from BMW so all we can do is try to be as logical and scientific minded as possible with our posts and evaluate the data that comes in. I truly doubt that all of the drivers who have experienced brake problems don't know what they're doing and caused the problems thru bad technique. If we were talking about a handful of cases here, I would not be quick to put responsibility with BMW but there are too many to believe that the overall braking system design is not a contributor. Our M cars should have brakes capable of withstanding some track use, with proper driving technique. These are my opinions, gleaned from my personal experiences and what I read and hear from others. Some of you may not agree and that's fine. Let's hear your thoughts and importantly your rationale and have a discussion and learn from each other.

Barber Motorsports Park
**Hallet motor Racing circuit
Texas World Speedway
MSR Cresson
**Eagles Canyon Raceway
*Circuit of the Americas
Heartland Park
High Plains Raceway
Mid Ohio

Above is a listing of a few of the tracks I have driven my car on. The ones that are hardest on brakes have asterisks. Several of those tracks I see speeds of 135-150 mph on with turns that are 50-60 mph at the end. I have had ZERO problems with my pads or rotors, aftermarket, or OEM

For me.. that CERTAINLY answers the question of: were the brakes designed well enough for a car that will see track use. Stand Down Sir!

As I said previously... not everyone is experiencing the same issues.. but if you think this car is not capable of track use.. come to the Texas Trifecta at COTA next year... I will take you out on track in my car. My brakes work! ;-)

As a matter of fact.... if we can get you OK/KC guys to stop putting your track days on top of our dates here in TX (even when we tell you what our dates are in advance..lol)... I'll be back at FLAT OUT next year to take you for a ride on your home track! LOL. As a matter of fact... I will be at HALLET probably again in September (unless I decided to go further and go to Road atlanta). Drop me a note if you are going to Hallet!

I Agree with you that it seems that there are some experienced track drivers that are having problems.. and I presume that they aren't all horrible drivers as well. Which goes back to the parts thing...

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by fastauto

Yea, the aggressive pad didn't work for me either but is worth a shot if he has a friend with a set. I actually had BMW replace the rotors because they were still under warranty. I changed my rotors (new stock set) and changed my braking habits and I really haven't had the issue come back. I think running some extra cooling ducts, proper pads, good fluid and stock rotors makes for a great and affordable solution.

Was the set of rotors that were having issues the OE set installed on the vehicle? If so what was your build date ?


when did you get your set of new GOOD rotors?

I think that the people that have had rotor issues might actually be able to pool their data points and perhaps we can narrow down to a time period that may show a parts issue.

[MDORPHN]

FWIW, I'm convinced that the stock set-up is adequate provided you're running good fluid, appropriate pads AND have proper braking technique.

Though I've added dedicated cooling to the front brakes, I did so simply to extend the life of my pads.

With 75+ days on track in my 1M, I've never experienced any brake fade or had problems with rotor warping/uneven pad deposits.

Neil

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

FWIW, I'm convinced that the stock set-up is adequate provided you're running good fluid, appropriate pads AND have proper braking technique.

Though I've added dedicated cooling to the front brakes, I did so simply to extend the life of my pads.

With 75+ days on track in my 1M, I've never experienced any brake fade or had problems with rotor warping/uneven pad deposits.

Neil

I have probably 50+ track days, and 20 autocrosses on my car.

[Piets94]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

FWIW, I'm convinced that the stock set-up is adequate provided you're running good fluid, appropriate pads AND have proper braking technique.

Though I've added dedicated cooling to the front brakes, I did so simply to extend the life of my pads.

With 75+ days on track in my 1M, I've never experienced any brake fade or had problems with rotor warping/uneven pad deposits.

Neil

The two most experienced track junkies don't seem to have any brake issues, so there really can't be any argument that the stock brakes are not adequate. They clearly are.

BUT, it seems to me that for less experienced trackers (such as myself) who are braking perhaps more often and washing off more speed, the stock set-up is not adequate. I have read of a forum member warping stock rotors and then PFC rotors, but then not the next set of stock rotors. The only thing that changed was type of pad used (and perhaps technique after 2 sets of warped rotors).

Maybe we are looking at a combination of factors contributing to the issue. Better rotors may help one driver where increased cooling may help another perhaps to make up for a deficiency in technique in most circumstances.

But then this car was never meant to be easy, nor forgiving. A challenge in more ways than one it seems.

[Jay-K]

i believe for the first issue is on the injector, ignition coil or either the oxygen sensor,
had this when changing to akrapovic carless down pipe..

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by Ian///M

I'd like to add that I bleed after most track days now as I have the Motive unit. Before I used to get brake fluid bled every 3rd track day. I now see that fluid gets bubbles after a single track day.

Also, when I say 'track day' it a fun, non-competitive event. So very different level to what you and M3 Adjuster do.

Neil, please take some time to explain to us of the incorrect braking technique which could be contributing to the issue. I don't hang on the brakes, but I am on them hard before a corners and sometimes trail. Instructors have not said I brake too early, although a more experienced driver definitely could brake later.

I rarely get any fade, and if so it is VERY slight. Never with DS2500's.

Certainly don't want to suggest that there's any issue with your braking technique -- just reporting on my experience.

Generally, proper braking involves using them as little as possible and, when using them, braking HARD for the shortest distance/period of time.

Neil

[Artemis]

Partially off-topic but 1M brake-related.

Last year during some drives up/down the daunting Stelvio Pass in Northern Italy (48 hairpin turns giving brakes a hard time) with a group of 1Ms, the front brakes of several 1Ms started to make the peculiar metallic ticking noise ("clink-clunk", almost like ticking bells) after some time during the drive. Of course thermal change triggers the sound (temp increase = metal part expansion | temp reduction = metal part reduction | compare with the peculiar metallic ticking of an exhaust cooling down after a drive).

However, once the group had parked right after the drive, it seemed that the front brakes of some 1Ms were 'singing' the "clink-clunk" song, but others remained silent.

Let's ignore for a moment the 1Ms with non-OEM brakes and brake pads. May I assume that the 'singing' of 1M OEM brakes is merely related to the way the driver 'strains' the brakes (faster/slower approach of a turn requiring different braking behavior [speed decrease], harder/softer braking [intensity], longer/shorter braking [period of time]) ? Everyone has its own driving style, some more 'spirited' than others.

Any suggestions on how other 1Ms managed to avoid the 'singing' ? And isn't the front-brakes 'singing' a tell-tale sign that the brakes are in the 'heat zone' capable of warping the rotors if you fail to properly cool down the brakes (and therefore should avoid pulling the handbrake whilst still under those high brake heat conditions) ? Actually, what exact mechanical parts of the brake are causing the 'singing' ? Another question: could leaving on all DSC nannies or deactivating these be of any influence (as we know, DSC manages to change engine torque or brake individual wheels to improve stability and traction).

Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions for a normal phenomenon or answered them by asking these, but always eager to learn (and especially to avoid warping rotors during non-track use).

[Dr_zito]

Hi, can anyone give me details on brands in the USA of
- rotors
- pads

for use in tracks
Thanks!