NOT a track car..

[TX78666]

BTW, I am loving this conversation about the trackworthiness of the 135, based on actual experiences, even where I disagree with some posters. Compared to the 1M conversation about the trackworthiness of the car, based on an unfavorable review, it is a breath of fresh air.

Maybe I am reading too much into both conversations, but this one suits me a lot better.

[VividRacingSale]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

I would say change that brake fluid and then see what happens...sounds to me like it is boiling or something.....what do you think?

Boiling brake fluid was my thought as well. Also, rotors don't really "warp", they get pad deposits on them. Next time you can just have the rotors machined.

Some fluid with a higher temp rating would help a lot. Motul offers a DOT4 fluid that's rated at up to 600 degrees.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/m...uid-p-567.html

If you want more bite, even when the fluids still working properly, I'd upgrade the pads and throw a set of slotted rotors on the car. For a car that's mostly a street car, there's no need for a big brake kit.

[adrean8j]

Yeah I have run a few times at the track (25-30 min. sessions only though, at RA and RR, routinely ~130mph on the long straights down to 50mph or so) and I used stock pads, BMW perf. rotors, and upgraded bremsfluessigkeit ATE Super Blue DOT 4 and had zero braking issues throughout the day. And mind you this is in summer/fall heat in the south (GA/SC) with temps 95F+and 80% and higher humidity....I am very interested in these brake discussions since I have seen only a few complain about it. Makes me wonder if they somehow got a "dud" set on their cars or what....

[scorcherjf]

The brakes seem to be ok for me (even in 100F temps in Florida). I've since switched to hawks and it's a little better. For track usage I think the brakes are fine (not GOOD, but fine) and aren't the weakest thing about the car... (struts up front and no LSD really stinks).

[VividRacingSale]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

Yeah I have run a few times at the track (25-30 min. sessions only though, at RA and RR, routinely ~130mph on the long straights down to 50mph or so) and I used stock pads, BMW perf. rotors, and upgraded bremsfluessigkeit ATE Super Blue DOT 4 and had zero braking issues throughout the day. And mind you this is in summer/fall heat in the south (GA/SC) with temps 95F+and 80% and higher humidity....I am very interested in these brake discussions since I have seen only a few complain about it. Makes me wonder if they somehow got a "dud" set on their cars or what....

It seems like the fluid has been his major issue. Super Blue is some good stuff, so that would explain why you haven't had any issues with fluid boiling.

[HondaGoneRogue]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

The brakes seem to be ok for me (even in 100F temps in Florida). I've since switched to hawks and it's a little better. For track usage I think the brakes are fine (not GOOD, but fine) and aren't the weakest thing about the car... (struts up front and no LSD really stinks).

+1. I've had SOME fade, but not enough to harp on it. People do amazing lap times on the ring in 89 VW golfs with guess what; stock brakes.

One day I came off the track with my brakes smoking (early track years lol) and an older German guy looks at me and laughs as he says "If your brakes are smoking, you haven't learned the track!"

[fourtailpipes]

this thread makes me a very sad panda. i agree that this car leaves something to be desired for an experienced track enthusiast, but i hate to see so many (presumably) newbies saying things like this car NEEDS a lot of modifications for HPDE use.

if you're considering your first HPDE in the 135i, do your instructor a favor and ignore such comments. show up to the track with a bone stock car. you'll learn more and spend less. most of these track mods that are being discussed help more advanced drivers and (with the exception of brakes), generally HURT beginners. this car doesn't NEED anything (though in the hands of an experienced operator, it may WANT a few things!)

[HondaGoneRogue]

Well put.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

you should get tomtom iphone car kit. the cradle has a suction cup where you can attach to windshield.

I think bettering your time by another 2-3 seconds may be a bit too optimistic on a stock car. personally I think part of the reason you were having trouble with your brakes can be that you are already over driving the car. obviously you are driving fast but with the stock suspension the car feels very unstable driven hard. you need to upgrade some suspension components in order to improve your time in a safe manner and with less stress to your brakes and suspension

EMRA does not allow those suction cup things in the car while racing.. I time it with a transponder which I rent from there, more accurate I guess.. Is the whole tomtom thing just the suction cup mount or do you mean I need some tomtom software to go with that app?

And as for the time I think 2-3 seconds is reasonable because I had the stock runflats then and now I have pilot supersports. Tires were by far the limiting factor and these PSS grip SO much better. Plus I got some more practice since then

[N55_BBM]

I'll post once I bleed the brakes. I'll flush them so that I use up the entire quart. If it brings my brakes back to 100% normal I'll conclude the fluid is the limiting factor for now.

As for machining the rotors, car is still under warranty so I'm not complaining about the fact that they gave me a new one . I don't think it's the pads because at the time they changed the rotors they said there was absolutely no need for new pads.

As for using a racing fluid, I read great things about the Motul 660. Problem with doing that is that I'd void warranty if I took the car in with those which means I'd have to flush back to stock everytime I take the car in, and I just don't have the time or willingness to do that currently.

Might be moving abroad come January and if so I'd sell the car so right now not too interested in modifications, just trying to figure out what the problem was...

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by ianf2002

Stock brakes are ok for track use, although a pad upgrade would help. My stock pads have performed 'ok' and not really experienced fading.

The car really needs a LSD and a better oil cooler.

This OT is a bit silly as I don't believe a 135i would be expected to be track ready without some form of mods (tyres & suspension).... the car should have come with an LSD though

why, so it can be tracked? that's the whole point of the thread... to point out how it's not a track ready car and identify some deficiencies..

i think we would all LOVE an LSD.. as we would love better suspension, non-runflats, better brake and oil cooling, better brake fluid.... etc etc.. but if it had all of that it wouldn't be a <$40k street car..

I particularly am very much enjoying the discussions, since every other thread I see either idolizes the car excessively or talks about all the mods and how awesome they perform in the track.. very rarely do you see people giving honest opinions on how the bone stock car behaves after "abusing" of it on the track..

I'm also enjoying seeing how this discussion actually helps point out what really NEEDS to be modified... the amount of suspension mods people in this forum have when they don't even track the car is borderline insane...! I love the "better handling and steering response" in particular.. two things that really don't need to be improved for street driving or aren't even priorities to be modified in this car for tracking.

Anyway, I'm going through verbal diarrhea here, should prob stop

[TX78666]

Actually, call me crazy, but for the price of a LSD, I am pretty sure it would not be my first mod. Or second, or third. First will definitely be tires, but not until the runflats are used up, so it is debatable whether that is a mod. From what I have read/heard, the suspension will be too soft at that point, but I will wait and see, before I decide.

Those mods aside, I am actually thinking of 225/255 tires, and a touch more negative camber, to whatever degree it is possible with the stock parts. Then, a 3.46 open diff ($500-ish). Then, possibly some lightweight wheels and track tires, mostly so that I don't have to worry about wearing out my street tires and being SOL trying to get to work, or putting 30,000 miles a year on nice track tires, commuting. Plus with track tires, I won't factor noise or wet handling into my selection.

That's still less than a LSD. The remainder might very well go to a membership at the local track (10 minutes from my house, and sure to pay for itself, many times over).

[IS+1]

I'd like to echo some previous comments as well that this thread is one of the most enlightening and enjoyable threads I've seen on 1addicts. It's great to see some healthy debate along with so much real world track experience being reported.

I think we need to keep in mind that many of us use our 135s as DD's, and therefore it does not make sense to turn them into track monsters that will beat you up every time you drive to the grocery store. I only plan to track mine maybe 3-4 times in any given year. The rest of the time I'm driving my wife around

The only weak link I've observed on the track so far is the propensity of the car to chew up the shoulders of the front tires. This concerns me from a mostly financial perspective. My other concern, which is safety related, is potential brake fade, but again I must preface that by saying that at my first lapping event this year I did 7x30 minute sessions, and at the 2nd event I did 6x30 minute sessions, and the stock brakes were rock solid.

Since my last track outing, I've replaced my front tires, gotten a slightly more track-friendly alignment, and plan to upgrade my brake fluid prior to next season.

If that doesn't work, I may consider camber plates and minor suspension mods, but I don't really want to upgrade to track pads when 98% of my driving is on the street, given their tendency to squeal.

For those of you with stock cars who have not tracked them and are considering trying it, please do not be discouraged by this thread. You will have an absolute blast, and you will walk away with a much greater appreciation and respect for the car.

A 100% track car it is not, but it gets around the track much better than you'd think.

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by IS+1

I'd like to echo some previous comments as well that this thread is one of the most enlightening and enjoyable threads I've seen on 1addicts. It's great to see some healthy debate along with so much real world track experience being reported.

I think we need to keep in mind that many of us use our 135s as DD's, and therefore it does not make sense to turn them into track monsters that will beat you up every time you drive to the grocery store. I only plan to track mine maybe 3-4 times in any given year. The rest of the time I'm driving my wife around

The only weak link I've observed on the track so far is the propensity of the car to chew up the shoulders of the front tires. This concerns me from a mostly financial perspective. My other concern, which is safety related, is potential brake fade, but again I must preface that by saying that at my first lapping event this year I did 7x30 minute sessions, and at the 2nd event I did 6x30 minute sessions, and the stock brakes were rock solid.

Since my last track outing, I've replaced my front tires, gotten a slightly more track-friendly alignment, and plan to upgrade my brake fluid prior to next season.

If that doesn't work, I may consider camber plates and minor suspension mods, but I don't really want to upgrade to track pads when 98% of my driving is on the street, given their tendency to squeal.

For those of you with stock cars who have not tracked them and are considering trying it, please do not be discouraged by this thread. You will have an absolute blast, and you will walk away with a much greater appreciation and respect for the car.

A 100% track car it is not, but it gets around the track much better than you'd think.

Agreed 100% I'm on the same boat. Only thing I'd add is whether or not you plan on tracking regularly do track it stock to begin with to learn about it's limitations.. BUT don't be fooled by all other threads saying that it's a perfectly fine track car, because once your driving reaches a certain level, you will damage something by going faster. It might take longer for some people but for me it took only 3 events...

That's also how I feel as far as the braking and tire shoulders go. I read many, many threads of people driving on stock brakes and street tires with no suspension mods and was led to believe it was 100% fine. Well, at my (and I repeat, my) current driving level if I don't upgrade those I'm gonna be left without a daily driver.

I might do one more track day at the end of the year but going forward the only way I'll ever track it again is after a brake cooling mod and targeting this tire problem.

And yes I'm aware I can have track wheels/tires and track and street pads, but at the moment I don't have the financial resources or tools to keep swapping these.. Thus the frustration...

I know, it's not the car's fault...

[MD Designs]

Originally Posted by ianf2002

Very few cars in this price range will be track-ready.... buy a 1M, but even that would need mods. Not sure where you got your impression that a stock 135i is a track ready car, perhaps you should have done your research before buying one!

I don't know how to respond, as I am not even sure the post is serious. A die hard track car out of the box, without changing one single part (including tires and fluids) what car is this? Seriously? So, rather then posting my .02 I will just ask a simple question. Are you serious?

[N55_BBM]

Originally Posted by MD Designs

I don't know how to respond, as I am not even sure the post is serious. A die hard track car out of the box, without changing one single part (including tires and fluids) what car is this? Seriously? So, rather then posting my .02 I will just ask a simple question. Are you serious?

I honestly don't know where people are getting this from, typical forum drama . No one (myself the OP) included ever said we expected or currently think the 135i was a track car out of the box. And by track car I mean a "die hard track car", not a car that can be driven around the track at a reasonable speed.

What you do see people saying around the forum is that you can track the car in its stock form without problems. And what this thread points out is the that no you cannot do that on a regular basis because it's not built for that.

Just trying to get people aware, because I walked in with the impression that the car could take the heat.. and from my personal experience it did so the first time but now after 3 times out it can't. A lot is said about the amount of fun and learnings taken from track days and not enough said about the impacts and cost of doing so in a stock car.

[MD Designs]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

A lot is said about the amount of fun and learnings taken from track days and not enough said about the impacts and cost of doing so in a stock car.

I agree on this! You should see my bill after I took my old b5 S4 (10yrs ago) to the track... This was the audi, "S4" the track car. Took out every single e46 m3 at button willow, but the pads shattered, and the car pushed like hercules on steroids doing squats.

But despite all this, I would never say that it was not a track car. It's simply a factory stock vehicle. Just like the 135i is... a factory vehicle. Very few, if any cars will be a track ready car from the factory.

I just think the thread title is extremely misleading personally. But thanks for sharing your experience on the track.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by N55_BBM

after a brake cooling mod and targeting this tire problem.

I know, it's not the car's fault...

I wanted to address two points:

1. Changing your brake fluid will be hard for the dealer to prove its changed if they are both gold colored right??? It would be like denying warranty coverage because you didn't use their "brand" of oil or antifreeze.

2. Not just a tire problem...its a suspension problem. If the outside of your front tires is wearing it is due to understeer. Part of that is how much the tires can withstand but a large part, especially with the E82, is the suspension.

I would suggest M3 suspension component upgrades BEFORE LSD and upgrading brakes.

1. Brake fluid
2. Non Run flat tires
3. M3 Suspension components


Do the above and then go to the track and you should be a bit happier......

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

1. Brake fluid

i agree. this can never hurt.

Originally Posted by adrean8j

2. Non Run flat tires

what exactly is this meant to accomplish? i agree that the oem runflats are underwhelming, but non-rft tires will not last any longer on the track, all things being equal.

Originally Posted by adrean8j

3. M3 Suspension components

this is vague, but i guess you're getting at extra camber saving some front tire life. i agree, but only the wishbone link gets you camber. an unimpressive 0.75 degrees claimed (or slightly less in my case). the rest of the links are really only useful for their stiffer bushings, which are totally unnecessary for a novice. sticking with the same line of thought, camber plates can yield almost triple that amount of camber for not much more money.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

i agree. this can never hurt.

what exactly is this meant to accomplish? i agree that the oem runflats are underwhelming, but non-rft tires will not last any longer on the track, all things being equal.

Non-RFT's WILL grip better than RFT's...that is what I was referring to. He will be able to go into those corners faster and with less push with Non-rft's (granted the compound is completely different)

this is vague, but i guess you're getting at extra camber saving some front tire life. i agree, but only the wishbone link gets you camber. an unimpressive 0.75 degrees claimed (or slightly less in my case). the rest of the links are really only useful for their stiffer bushings, which are totally unnecessary for a novice. sticking with the same line of thought, camber plates can yield almost triple that amount of camber for not much more money.

Bottom line the car handles better with the M3 suspension components. The rear bushngs alone help to settle the rear end down....I was saying instead of spending big bucks on a BBK and LSD...first try the cheaper tried and true stuff and see how it feels for a bit. All the stuff I mentioned is cheaper than an LSD (depending on manual vs. auto, final gearing, etc...)

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by adrean8j

Bottom line the car handles better with the M3 suspension components.

lets not kid ourselves into thinking that "handling improvements" are needed to go to the track. at least no more needed than an exhaust or those fancy carbon kidneys.

there are plenty of people on here who are simply looking for justification to buy stuff so they can include it in their signature. that's their prerogative, but lets not confuse the guys who simply want to try a track event, but probably now think their tires will melt, brakes will be obliterated, and motor will overheat if they do.

[adrean8j]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

lets not kid ourselves into thinking that "handling improvements" are needed to go to the track. at least no more needed than an exhaust or those fancy carbon kidneys.

there are plenty of people on here who are simply looking for justification to buy stuff so they can include it in their signature. that's their prerogative, but lets not confuse the guys who simply want to try a track event, but probably now think their tires will melt, brakes will be obliterated, and motor will overheat if they do.

I don't know why you focused on me, but I never said any of that. I was merely mentioning some relatively "cheap" things the OP could do to further his current enjoyment and address some of his immediate complaints. I am constantly telling friends and acquaintances to come to a track day with me. The main response I get "I am not ready, I need some more stuff done to my car". My response? "You don't need anything done to your car to learn at a HPDE.