advantages of heel-toe downshifting...???

[ichiban]

that diagram above shows very clearly the benefits. And as for double clutching, I've tried it and applied it while driving my wrx (because of the weak tranny) to save the synchros, but other than that and driving in a dogbox, i dont think it is necessary.

[fourtailpipes]

my microsoft paint prowess shows again

[mugennosora]

why did i brought up formula? because J-tyler brought it up some where....doesn't matter really, this is really about a guy who want to learn heel toe...anyways i didn't know it was legal to operate at 14, have fun getting pay for driving, it's something that most people want to do but can't. fortunately I got jobs working at office, so i don't have to risk my life for anything.

[ichiban]

Originally Posted by mugennosora

why did i brought up formula? because J-tyler brought it up some where....doesn't matter really, this is really about a guy who want to learn heel toe...anyways i didn't know it was legal to operate at 14, have fun getting pay for driving, it's something that most people want to do but can't. fortunately I got jobs working at office, so i don't have to risk my life for anything.

i think his point was that he has more experience in this field than you. No need to down talk professions now. That's kinda low.

[fourtailpipes]

when i had the audi, i did it like you see in the videos, but in the bmw i leave my heel on the floor through
the whole process... i barely move my foot at all... just tilt it to the right. these are my narrowest shoes,
and they're more than wide enough. at the track, i use adidas sambas.

[mugennosora]

Originally Posted by ichiban

i think his point was that he has more experience in this field than you. No need to down talk professions now. That's kinda low.

which part did it down talk his profession? i said that it's a profession most people would want but can't...if that's down talk then what's up talk??

[xbook]

I've been rev matching for years. It's one of the joys of driving a car with a manual tranny. I say funk dat new 370Z that does it for you.

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by AlienDNA

You must have the original ('97?) edition. I dug up my copy the other day getting the baby's room ready and just took a look. I've got the '01 edition, and they break out the chapter into heel & toe (for synchronized transmissions) and double-clutch (for crash boxes). It seems like they spend twice as much time on the double-clutch, but (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't that because when it was originally written, Barber schools were Formula cars only, and all they had was non-synchro education?

Ah, thanks for the update! I didn't realize there were two versions.

Yes, Skip did used to only have the Formula Fords. Then they became Formula Dodges, and they started also using Dodge vehicles for instruction (Neons, Dakotas, Vipers, and the 12-passenger vans). The formula cars have "dog-ring" gearboxes. The school formula cars are 4-speed H-pattern, and the Skip Barber racecars are 5-speed sequential (both 'dog' boxes).

Actually, with a 'dog box' (a gearbox that uses beefy 'dog' teeth instead of synchro teeth), you don't need to double-clutch. The dogs are actually designed to be beat up! Dog boxes don't sound pretty (they usually have straight-cut gears) and they make violent bangs when going into gear, but racers aren't worried about that stuff. Dog boxes allow very very quick shifts; and shifting without the clutch is possible. They are tougher, lighter, and simpler than street-car synchromesh gearboxes. The '90's IndyLights racecars were H-pattern dog boxes just like the Skippy school cars, and none of the fast guys were double-clutching those. It's literally impossible to do all that when your entire braking zone is 1-2s long!

Anyhow, good advice - ignore the double-clutch instructions, and the theory at the beginning of the chapter is a good explanation about why you want to match revs under braking.

I do think double-clutching is a good thing to be familiar with. I double-clutch my street car just to be nice to the synchro teeth, and you never know when you'll have to drive a racecar/sportscar with beat up synchros that literally won't go into gear unless you double-clutch. On the track, I double-clutch when skipping gears on downshifts (like going from 5th to 3rd) just because the RPM difference is so big. But for single-gear downshifts, I think single-clutching is more than fine.

If the gearbox is in good shape, single-clutching will yeild more precise brake modulation, faster downshifts, and therefore faster laptimes vs double-clutching; so I say do that if you're trying to go fast

[ichiban]

Originally Posted by mugennosora

which part did it down talk his profession? i said that it's a profession most people would want but can't...if that's down talk then what's up talk??

save the part about risking life. I just found that to be offensive but none the less, are you sure your a phd? your paragraph is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. Just saying.

[davemohan]

I just know I'm going to be sorry for this, but...

Originally Posted by ichiban

Save the part about risking life. I just found that to be offensive but none the less, are you sure you're a PhD? Your paragraph is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. Just saying. (fragment, but what the hey!)

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by davemohan

I just know I'm going to be sorry for this, but...

hahaha! If you didn't do it, I would have! It's just the "your" that bothers me (I forgive capitalization), but if you're going to comment on spelling and grammar, you have to at least get it right yourself. That's just CYA!

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

Actually, with a 'dog box' (a gearbox that uses beefy 'dog' teeth instead of synchro teeth), you don't need to double-clutch. The dogs are actually designed to be beat up! Dog boxes don't sound pretty (they usually have straight-cut gears) and they make violent bangs when going into gear, but racers aren't worried about that stuff. Dog boxes allow very very quick shifts; and shifting without the clutch is possible. They are tougher, lighter, and simpler than street-car synchromesh gearboxes. The '90's IndyLights racecars were H-pattern dog boxes just like the Skippy school cars, and none of the fast guys were double-clutching those. It's literally impossible to do all that when your entire braking zone is 1-2s long!

i need to get back into another formula car! i miss clutchless up and down with the ford. only used the clutch for standing starts or cooldown laps.

[R32]

Originally Posted by akak1997

I'm a noob and still learning how to heel-toe. I found it very difficult to keep a constant pressure on the brake while bliping the throttle. the Stock gas pedal is a tad too far for me to do "ball-toe" and it's even more difficult to do heal-toe, coz the pivot point of the gas pedal is at the bottom, so you've to really raise the heel higher up to effectively blip the throttle. This is even harder when you are not braking Hard (i.e. on service streets), coz w/o fully depressing the brake, the distance to blip the throttle is even further.

just my $0.02 from someone who learned this not so long ago to have forgotten a time when i didn't know how...

people say "practice all the time." this is actually not that helpful-- as you've said, the brake travel on the track is much deeper than a typical street corner, the blip is stronger, and it is not that often that you approach a corner or turn that you KNOW you won't have to stop at. rev-matching for shifting of course can be done anywhere anytime.

the key for me was to realize that my foot is not dextrous enough to negotiate a blip of the throttle and keep steady pressure on the brake, especially when the brake is deeper than the gas. i was forever pressing both gas and brake together, which the car doesn't like :P.

the key to heel-toeing is your leg. when braking, move your right knee toward your left as much as you can, and apply the brakes with just the ball of the big toe. this allows the right side of the right foot to cant upward, and so the gas is not depressed no matter how deep the braking is.

then, when you are ready to shift, depress clutch and blip the gas. this can be done simply by moving the right knee back to the right, all the while still keeping the brake pressure on the ball of the foot steady. do it quick, and blip harder than you think you need to-- if you are going fast, you'll be revving most of the way to redline.

once the shift is done, the braking zone ends, and you move your foot completely off the brake and to the volume pedal.

that is how i conceptualize a heel-toe brake/turn, and it works for me.
:thumbup:

[R32]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

I do think double-clutching is a good thing to be familiar with. I double-clutch my street car just to be nice to the synchro teeth, and you never know when you'll have to drive a racecar/sportscar with beat up synchros that literally won't go into gear unless you double-clutch. On the track, I double-clutch when skipping gears on downshifts (like going from 5th to 3rd) just because the RPM difference is so big. But for single-gear downshifts, I think single-clutching is more than fine.

this is the only time i have needed to double clutch as well, since the car will often keep you out of the lower gear if the rev difference is too high. of course, not all tracks will have a turn that requires a shift that skips a gear.

i have had two different sets of advice about very long braking zone into a hairpin, say 4th to 2nd gear. if you do a single downshift, you probably have to double clutch, and if you screw it up, you are more likely to make it a money shift. if you downshift into 3rd and then into 2nd, even the most skilled driver will find it hard to threshold brake and pull both shifts off smoothly and not upset the car.

for myself, i have found it a little more fun and less stressful to shift twice, but i'd love to hear your opinion about this.

[davemohan]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

hahaha! If you didn't do it, I would have! It's just the "your" that bothers me (I forgive capitalization), but if you're going to comment on spelling and grammar, you have to at least get it right yourself. That's just CYA!

Yeah, I learned that you have to ignore internet illiteracy a long time ago. If not, you will drive yourself crazy, waste bandwidth with all the "your stoopid" responses, and set yourself up for others pointing out your foibles. But once in a while I just can't help it.

There is some excellent info in this thread from J Tyler and others, as well as the usual intermittent drivel. The video demonstrating heel-toe at the "feet level" is great! So is the photo showing a technique for a floor-hinged pedal. And the MSPaint graphic proves a picture is worth a thousand words. (100?)

I have been struggling with heel and toe on and off for years. Just can't seem to get it to the muscle memory point, and without that it becomes a distraction just when you need it the least. But I'm still working on it and this helps! Thanks to all!

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by R32

people say "practice all the time." this is actually not that helpful-- as you've said, the brake travel on the track is much deeper than a typical street corner, the blip is stronger, and it is not that often that you approach a corner or turn that you KNOW you won't have to stop at. rev-matching for shifting of course can be done anywhere anytime.

i disagree... heel-toe is more than possible on the street, and although it is different (in magnitude) from what you do on the track, the mechanics are the same. suggesting that people learn heel-toe at the track is a concept that terrifies me. that's like saying that firing a gun in combat is different from on a range, so lets just have our soldiers learn to shoot in the field!

i don't want to be anywhere near someone first trying to operate 3 pedals with 2 feet at speed on a racetrack.

[mugennosora]

Originally Posted by ichiban

save the part about risking life. I just found that to be offensive but none the less, are you sure your a phd? your paragraph is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. Just saying.

Yeah, my grammer sux, that's because i am specialized in Asian Language, Japanese, Chinese, Cantonese, Taiwanese, and some Korean, English is actually my last learned language. grammatical errors can be corrected by having someone else review your work and if anyone else here is also Ph.d they'll tell you, to obtain a Ph.d you must first form a college, which is few people with the same interest in proving one philosophy, and everyone in the group is good at something. grammer isn't one of my strong point, but Logic and calculations are. and yeah risk life is not down talk but to show the level of difficulty. I would do race too if I have th guts to risk myself...but i don't, it's actually a praise. In the end, I don't really care if someone takes my advice for anything, not like i get a award or earn $ based on commenting. I am just sharing my experience, and post what's on my mind, the value of it, is to each self.

I wouldn't go around and make a post saying that "I work in this field, so all of you are bull. unless you got mechanical engineering degree, don't post your useless thoughts." now that's down talk.

just want to add one more thing...just because you work in the field, it doesn't not mean you know everything and everyone else's information is bull$hit. just look at our country+economy, good example of bunch people who works in the field + said they know what they're doing....

[davemohan]

Mods?!? Y'all out there?

Just a suggestion, but there really is some excellent info in this thread. Unfortunately it has also gone way off track. How about stripping out the crap (including mine), close the thread, and sticky it?

[mugennosora]

agree..please do that...I am sorry for all J-Tyler vs me crap. but i can't help to reply to comments ^_^

[xbook]

Mugen,

Please just stop.

Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[davemohan]

Originally Posted by xbook

Mugen,

Please just stop.

Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

My Granny's version was "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt". Truer words were never spoken.

Edit: Just to be clear this particular post was not directed at mugennosora, but rather at all of us who went down this path. I violate this 'rule' daily, I'm sure, but it is a pearl of wisdom.

[mugennosora]

Originally Posted by xbook

Mugen,

Please just stop.

Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

you know that's what i intended to do...until you come in and tell me what to do..