Tunes and HPFP....

AlBel1214 · 08-11-2009, 04:05 PM

I am no wiz kid when it comes to engines but does adding boost with a tune change in any aspect how the HPFP operates from stock?... I mean if a turbo blew up would be one thing but if the HPFP fails and theycall you out for a tune are the two related or mutually exclusive??

Just curious...

Lionel Hutz · 08-11-2009, 05:19 PM

Simple answer: If you tune your car, don't expect the dealer to perform any warranty work on your powertrain without a huge fight.

Complicated answer: A more aggressive tune is going to burn more fuel and require your pumps and injectors to work harder. Whether it would cause a HPFP to burn out I don't think anybody knows. I have noticed quite a few posts where people put on a tune and get HPFP problems within a few months.

eunosracr · 08-11-2009, 05:22 PM

Remove tune before going in to get HPFP replaced.

shodanusmc · 08-11-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed 2.0

Simple answer: If you tune your car, don't expect the dealer to perform any warranty work on your powertrain without a huge fight.

That is a fact. Tune it, and powertrain work is on your dime. Now if you need a new glove box cover, they will replace that without too much of a fight.

AlBel1214 · 08-11-2009, 07:26 PM

I am getting a new purge valve and left on everything when I brought it in and had no problems so I also guess it depends on the dealer...plus I have 3 dealers in the area so I guess thats also a good thing if I ever get denied by one..

I guess what makes me mad is the HPFP has been known to fail WITHOUT any tunes(which is when my first went) and for the past month I have been afraid to turn up my JB+ b/c of the long cranks I am starting to get again... that is what sucks b/c I bought a tune and can't even go to its max potential b/c I am worried about the engine right now..

I really wish they would find a final solution and do a recall... no more "ok try this new model and cross your fingers" b/s...

oh and I understand if you really wanna play it safe take off your tune (hell take off your intake, scoops, exhaust, downpipes etc..) if your going in for engine work/issues...

moff · 08-13-2009, 07:17 AM

Obviously my opinion, but I believe many of the HPFP failures are due to tunes.

I think the HPFP is inherently weak and the additional strain of the tune is causing failures.

I do think that due to the part being of poor quality that even stock cars will also cause failures, but tunes increase the likelihood of a failure.

AlBel1214 · 08-13-2009, 08:36 AM

^^^ Ehh I think someone needs to do a poll b/c I have been on this board since last march when they released this car and there were a TON of stock cars with this issue...

supracg · 08-13-2009, 08:52 AM

ya mines 1800 miles, broken it at 1200 and then the hpfp failed no mods ever...so imo the hpfp is just faulty, period.

gargoyal · 08-13-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlBel1214

I am no wiz kid when it comes to engines but does adding boost with a tune change in any aspect how the HPFP operates from stock?... I mean if a turbo blew up would be one thing but if the HPFP fails and theycall you out for a tune are the two related or mutually exclusive??

Just curious...

The HPFP problems are known issues with the n54 engine. BMW was trying to blame the problems on the tunes originally. It has been proven that it is not tune related. BMW has even offered a extension on the HPFP in their warranty. The HPFP has had a "pattern of failure" . Because of U.S. warranty law BMW has to replace them, even if a mod may have contributed to the failure.

The HPFP is one of the few things you should expect BMW to replace if you are mod'ed

imoz · 08-13-2009, 11:49 AM

I saw with some googling that CP-E has an aftermarket HPFP for Mazda's... is there anything particularly unique about the BMW HPFP that an aftermarket vendor hasn't stepped in with an upgraded part yet?

Lionel Hutz · 08-13-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gargoyal

Because of U.S. warranty law BMW has to replace them, even if a mod may have contributed to the failure.

This is not correct.

jeremyc74 · 08-13-2009, 01:07 PM

From what we've seen in the polls,

A - Lots of stock N54s have had failures, even multiple failures
B - Lots of tuned N54s have had falures, even multiple failures

My conclusion is that:

Lots of N54s have bad fuel pumps.

I honestly don't think the tunes have anything to do with it. The way the fuel pump is designed, the tuned cars may be seeing higher pressure more frequently than a stock N54, but the tunes are altering the fuel pressure beyond what the stock system is capable of supplying.

It's interesting to me that as of right now this issue has been going on for over 3 years, but we STILL don't really know what part of the fuel pump is failing or what the failure mode is. We don't know if it's seals, or pistons, or the pressure regulator, or the bypass system. We don't know if it's something that degrades over time (like seals wearing, or just breaks Without that information there's really no way to know what's contributing to the failures.

gargoyal · 08-13-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed 2.0

This is not correct.

Yes it is.
Per warranty law the burden of proof is on the dealer. The reality is it ends up being on the consumer, because the cost to fight a dispute is too high.

A “pattern of failure” is a different issue. The HPFP has documented problems and meets the definition of a “pattern of failure”. BMW cannot claim that it is a tunes or mods fault when there is documentation that says the HPFP has problems. They MUST replace it unless they can PROVE that you broke it. This case is different than other warrant issues because there are other laws and fines around not fixing know problems.

Do some research on “pattern of failure” and warranty law.

jeremyc74 · 08-13-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gargoyal

Yes it is.
Per warranty law the burden of proof is on the dealer. The reality is it ends up being on the consumer, because the cost to fight a dispute is too high.

A “pattern of failure” is a different issue. The HPFP has documented problems and meets the definition of a “pattern of failure”. BMW cannot claim that it is a tunes or mods fault when there is documentation that says the HPFP has problems. They MUST replace it unless they can PROVE that you broke it. This case is different than other warrant issues because there are other laws and fines around not fixing know problems.

Do some research on “pattern of failure” and warranty law.

I'd like to see just one example where someone actually won a case like this, (a modified tune and an engine related part failure) and the manufacturer got fined.

gargoyal · 08-13-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'd like to see just one example where someone actually won a case like this, (a modified tune and an engine related part failure) and the manufacturer got fined.

in the case of the HPFP and the old waste gate issue, it is the reason that BMW has fixed all the mod'ed cars. I will turn it back to you and say show me where a manufacture has not fixed a problem that is a "pattern of failure" on a mod'ed car. I agree with you on the standard warrenty stuff.
Not on a "pattern of failure"

AlBel1214 · 08-13-2009, 01:26 PM

Yeah if a part can't even handle stock parameters then how can they blame it on a tune??? No matter what this part is gonna die... stock or not stock...

I am sure they would blame the tune to save them the hassle/money but still...

jeremyc74 · 08-13-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gargoyal

in the case of the HPFP and the old waste gate issue, it is the reason that BMW has fixed all the mod'ed cars. I will turn it back to you and say show me where a manufacture has not fixed a problem that is a "pattern of failure" on a mod'ed car. I agree with you on the standard warrenty stuff.
Not on a "pattern of failure"

Well they've sure as hell refused to look at mine.

My only recourse at this point is to lawyer up, but it will be cheaper to just change the pump myself.

Lionel Hutz · 08-13-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gargoyal;5693409

[COLOR=black

Do some research on “pattern of failure” and warranty law. [/COLOR]

Please point us to that law, I'd be interested to see it.

ru55 · 08-13-2009, 03:17 PM

How do you know if you have problems with the fuel pump? What happens?

I have had a tune ... and sometimes on hard acceleration on 2nd/3rd the power delevery is stuttered not smooth...

AlBel1214 · 08-13-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Well they've sure as hell refused to look at mine.

My only recourse at this point is to lawyer up, but it will be cheaper to just change the pump myself.

Do you have any other dealers remotely close?? Take off your mods and take it there..

gargoyal · 08-13-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Well they've sure as hell refused to look at mine.

My only recourse at this point is to lawyer up, but it will be cheaper to just change the pump myself.

if it is really a problem with the fuel pump call BMW NA. they are honoring the fuel pump replacements. there is a lot you can do before lawyering up. BMW NA is responsible for the warranty not the dealer. start there. I will post some of the other stuff including the law later tonight.

Note: if it is something other than the HPFP you are boned. BMW will flag your car as mod'ed if you took it in. it wont matter where you take it, they will know about the mods. they can try to blame it on the mods if its not the HPFP. the HPFP is different because there are known issues.

also BMW admited there is problems with the HPFP (see last post)

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245241

EDIT:

just reread the letter. BMW has only conceded problems with 07 & 08 n54 HPFP. If you have an 09 it may NOT be a "pattern of failure"...... yet. that is a big differance (my135 is an 08 and I got the letter.)

jeremyc74 · 08-13-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gargoyal

if it is really a problem with the fuel pump call BMW NA. they are honoring the fuel pump replacements. there is a lot you can do before lawyering up. BMW NA is responsible for the warranty not the dealer. start there. I will post some of the other stuff including the law later tonight.

Note: if it is something other than the HPFP you are boned. BMW will flag your car as mod'ed if you took it in. it wont matter where you take it, they will know about the mods. they can try to blame it on the mods if its not the HPFP. the HPFP is different because there are known issues.

also BMW admited there is problems with the HPFP (see last post)

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245241

I've already called BMWNA, spoken with the service manager, the sales manager, and anyone else who will listen. The call was made by the regional rep, and they won't let me talk to him. They won't even diagnose the car because I've got O2 sims on it, and there isn't a damn thing that can be done other than getting a lawyer. You're sitting there speculating about the situation, and I'm in the middle of it.

They CAN and DO deny fuel pump claims on modded cars. Telling people otherwise is giving them false information.

08-11-2009, 04:05 PM	#1
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	Tunes and HPFP.... I am no wiz kid when it comes to engines but does adding boost with a tune change in any aspect how the HPFP operates from stock?... I mean if a turbo blew up would be one thing but if the HPFP fails and theycall you out for a tune are the two related or mutually exclusive?? Just curious... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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08-11-2009, 05:19 PM	#2
Lionel Hutz Lieutenant 228 Rep 509 Posts Drives: '24 X5 50e Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0)	Simple answer: If you tune your car, don't expect the dealer to perform any warranty work on your powertrain without a huge fight. Complicated answer: A more aggressive tune is going to burn more fuel and require your pumps and injectors to work harder. Whether it would cause a HPFP to burn out I don't think anybody knows. I have noticed quite a few posts where people put on a tune and get HPFP problems within a few months.
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08-11-2009, 05:22 PM	#3
eunosracr Colonel 159 Rep 2,231 Posts Drives: a car Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: here iTrader: (4)	Remove tune before going in to get HPFP replaced.
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08-11-2009, 07:26 PM	#5
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	I am getting a new purge valve and left on everything when I brought it in and had no problems so I also guess it depends on the dealer...plus I have 3 dealers in the area so I guess thats also a good thing if I ever get denied by one.. I guess what makes me mad is the HPFP has been known to fail WITHOUT any tunes(which is when my first went) and for the past month I have been afraid to turn up my JB+ b/c of the long cranks I am starting to get again... that is what sucks b/c I bought a tune and can't even go to its max potential b/c I am worried about the engine right now.. I really wish they would find a final solution and do a recall... no more "ok try this new model and cross your fingers" b/s... oh and I understand if you really wanna play it safe take off your tune (hell take off your intake, scoops, exhaust, downpipes etc..) if your going in for engine work/issues... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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08-13-2009, 07:17 AM	#6
moff Colonel 1363 Rep 2,495 Posts Drives: X4M Competition Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nottingham GB iTrader: (0)	Obviously my opinion, but I believe many of the HPFP failures are due to tunes. I think the HPFP is inherently weak and the additional strain of the tune is causing failures. I do think that due to the part being of poor quality that even stock cars will also cause failures, but tunes increase the likelihood of a failure. __________________ Arrived! 2022 X4M Competition, SPY + Black Merino Gone: 2019 X3M Competition, Toronto Red, Adelaide Grey.
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08-13-2009, 08:36 AM	#7
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	^^^ Ehh I think someone needs to do a poll b/c I have been on this board since last march when they released this car and there were a TON of stock cars with this issue... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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08-13-2009, 08:52 AM	#8
supracg Banned 7 Rep 320 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: potomac iTrader: (0)	ya mines 1800 miles, broken it at 1200 and then the hpfp failed no mods ever...so imo the hpfp is just faulty, period.
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08-13-2009, 11:49 AM	#10
imoz Private 6 Rep 53 Posts Drives: 2009 AW 135i M-Sport Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Philly burbs iTrader: (0)	I saw with some googling that CP-E has an aftermarket HPFP for Mazda's... is there anything particularly unique about the BMW HPFP that an aftermarket vendor hasn't stepped in with an upgraded part yet?
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08-13-2009, 01:07 PM	#12
jeremyc74 Banned 76 Rep 5,970 Posts Drives: '08 135i Montego/Terra Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Evansville, IN iTrader: (0)	From what we've seen in the polls, A - Lots of stock N54s have had failures, even multiple failures B - Lots of tuned N54s have had falures, even multiple failures My conclusion is that: Lots of N54s have bad fuel pumps. I honestly don't think the tunes have anything to do with it. The way the fuel pump is designed, the tuned cars may be seeing higher pressure more frequently than a stock N54, but the tunes are altering the fuel pressure beyond what the stock system is capable of supplying. It's interesting to me that as of right now this issue has been going on for over 3 years, but we STILL don't really know what part of the fuel pump is failing or what the failure mode is. We don't know if it's seals, or pistons, or the pressure regulator, or the bypass system. We don't know if it's something that degrades over time (like seals wearing, or just breaks Without that information there's really no way to know what's contributing to the failures.
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08-13-2009, 01:26 PM	#16
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	Yeah if a part can't even handle stock parameters then how can they blame it on a tune??? No matter what this part is gonna die... stock or not stock... I am sure they would blame the tune to save them the hassle/money but still... __________________ -----LS3 C6----- *z51 suspension,* *NPP dual mode exhaust(wild2mild),20% tint,* zr1 replica wheels, gloss black fender stripes** R.I.P SGM 135i w/ some mods
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08-13-2009, 03:17 PM	#19
ru55 Private 7 Rep 82 Posts Drives: 135 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Worcestershire. UK iTrader: (0)	How do you know if you have problems with the fuel pump? What happens? I have had a tune ... and sometimes on hard acceleration on 2nd/3rd the power delevery is stuttered not smooth...
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