Motortrend Evo X vs. 135i

imported_saturn · 04-22-2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

Also, in the motortred article, the evo kills it on the road track b/c the evo has a really smart dsg computer program driving the transmission and S-awc doing almost everything else - distributing torque, braking etc. The bmw auto is just not competitive here. I'd be willing to bet the results would have been diffirent with a manual 135.

I see no evidence for that claim at all.

Ferdinand · 04-23-2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chriscecc914

wow 0-60 in 4.7 seconds with the "plain jane automatic". BMW says the 6 speed with get you to 60 a tad quicker.

Nope, you won't. It's the same time. In the 6 speed you have a quicker launch, but, because of the slower manual shift moment (which you do not have in the auto gearbox), both cars are even quick.

mprhead5 · 04-23-2008, 03:51 AM

I love that the only thing in the price range that can match the 135 in performance are cars that can't come close to the trim levels offered by BMW. The 135 is such a nicer car than an EVO and can still beat it in performance. Not to mention the fact that the insurance rates for the bimer are much lower.

chewablechain · 04-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystiqueskillz

If you go to evom.net you can find time slips of drivers with stock cars hitting 12's easily. For example, the S2000, you see magazine times at 14.0 - 14.3 stock, but there are lots like lots of people on S2ki.com that has hit as low as 13.6 stock in a S2000.

Mathmatically I just can't see it pulling that much less, at least "stock" anyhow.. I've known a few people that pulled slips with a "stock" (ha!) car as well. When I go get my 135i Dinan tune this weekend- I'm going to call it stock too!

chewablechain · 04-23-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferdinand

Nope, you won't. It's the same time. In the 6 speed you have a quicker launch, but, because of the slower manual shift moment (which you do not have in the auto gearbox), both cars are even quick.

I figured it being the same/and or quicker. And I say quicker because I used to play with classic muscle cars at the shop.. Sometimes you don't always get the kind of launch you want (i.e late shift, driver error, etc.). The automatic can shift seemlessly for you everytime...

However, if your perfect and know everything- you could display that same result with a manual...

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 08:36 AM

No way an automatic is faster than manual. Sequential-DSG-SMG yes it would be possible. The Steptronic is just a fancy name for an auto gearbox. Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual.
The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second(unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it. I read on Edmunds that this press 135i that they drove was maybe running higher boost.

chewablechain · 04-23-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtla4

No way an automatic is faster than manual. Sequential-DSG-SMG yes it would be possible. The Steptronic is just a fancy name for an auto gearbox. Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual.
The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second(unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it. I read on Edmunds that this press 135i that they drove was maybe running higher boost.

Many magazines have already tested both, sir... I had originally thought this, that the manual is faster. One- because before all the real information became present on the web I was taking the word of many in here. Since the information and tests have become apparent online, I'm finding that they are pretty much the same (just one allows for less error- which helps time).
It's all a matter of choice really...

As for your example...
"Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual.
The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second (unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it."
Where did you find that? Is that based on your opinion? Do you have extensive experience building cars? I'm trying to figure out how you figure it'll get stuck? There's a lot of information going around on this website that's being stuck down as fact. I just want to clarify...

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chewablechain

Many magazines have already tested both, sir... I had originally thought this, that the manual is faster. One- because before all the real information became present on the web I was taking the word of many in here. Since the information and tests have become apparent online, I'm finding that they are pretty much the same (just one allows for less error- which helps time).
It's all a matter of choice really...

As for your example...
"Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual.
The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second (unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it."
Where did you find that? or is that based on your opinion? Do you have extensive experience building cars? I'm trying to figure out how you figure it'll get stuck? There's a lot of information going around on this website that's being stuck down as fact. I just want to clarify...

My personal experience, I race cars,bikes and run a car shop. Anyhow I hate drag racing (did 9.xx bike passes 11.xx car passes)

chewablechain · 04-23-2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtla4

My personal experience, I race cars,bikes and run a car shop

So you know all about BMW motors? I used to race cars too, and I worked in a shop- Classic car restoration. I also grew up at the dragstrip for my father was all about cars. You know I even know how to fly a plane (have a VFR). But I don't protest to know everything about these new engines, in the past, it used to be that manuals were the best. Automatics were slow and couldn't keep up, but that was the 1960's.. I've already come around to the fact that they (automatics) are a whole head and shoulders better than they used to be...

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chewablechain

So you know all about BMW motors? I used to race cars too, and I worked in a shop- Classic car restoration. I also grew up at the dragstrip for my father was all about cars. You know I even know how to fly a plane (have a VFR). But I don't protest to know everything about these new engines, in the past, it used to be that manuals were the best. Automatics were slow and couldn't keep up, but that was the 1960's.. I've already come around to the fact that they (automatics) are a whole head and shoulders better than they used to be...

Im not about drag racing yes I go once in a while but I rather track it so no way Im tracking an automatic car. I never said that I knew everything. This engine just came out we still have a long way to go. Dont take posts personally its a Forum. If youre into drag racing fine...im not...I never attacked you personally either....When DTM,SCCA,BTCC and other racing circuit will use automatic Ill be forced to believe that they are in fact better than manual.

chewablechain · 04-23-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtla4

I edited my post and forgot to tell you. Im not about drag racing yes I go once in a while but I rather track it so no way Im tracking an automatic car. I never said that I knew everything do you know everything aswell. This engine just came out we still have a long way to go. Dont take posts personally its a Forum. If youre into drag racing fine...im not...I never attacked you personally either....When DTM,SCCA,BTCC and other racing circuit will use automatic Ill be forced to believe that they are in fact better than manual.

It's not about taking this personally.. There's a lot of information going around and it's mostly based on opinion. You, yourself said you wouldn't take an automatic to the track. I know plenty of other people that would agree with that.. But that is a personal preference, not a tool for judging an engine weaker than another.
I'm learning about the engine everyday, I spent hours talking to a mechanic at BMW. I wasn't the one who made up a scenario for an example. I've still got a ways to go, but if you look I never protested to know everything about them. I never claimed anything I haven't already learned... which is still very little, but enough to know that the automatic isn't slow. Alot of racing uses manual because it's a test of skill. That's what it's about. (Again, I never claimed there being any skill involved in the auto)....

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chewablechain

It's not about taking this personally.. There's a lot of information going around and it's mostly based on opinion. You, yourself said you wouldn't take an automatic to the track. I know plenty of other people that would agree with that.. But that is a personal preference, not a tool for judging an engine weaker than another.
I'm learning about the engine everyday, I spent hours talking to a mechanic at BMW. I've still got a ways to go, but if you look I never protested to know everything about them. I never claimed anything I haven't already learned... which is still very little, but enough to know that the automatic isn't slow. Alot of racing uses manual because it's a test of skill. That's what it's about.
Many Indy cars don't have an actually ball shifter, alot of funny cars as well.

Anyhow I just hope that this forum will help finding solutions to make our cars better whatever we do with them

jeremyc74 · 04-23-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtla4

No way an automatic is faster than manual. Sequential-DSG-SMG yes it would be possible. The Steptronic is just a fancy name for an auto gearbox. Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual.
The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second(unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it. I read on Edmunds that this press 135i that they drove was maybe running higher boost.

Are you serious? Nearly every single serious drag car in the world is automatic. The only reason automatics have been slower than manuals in the past is because of few gear ratios, and the taller gearing that results. The launch is MUCH easier with an automatic than with a manual. You put one foot on the brake, the other on the gas and run the RPMs up against the brake, release the brake, floor it and you're gone.

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Are you serious? Nearly every single serious drag car in the world is automatic. The only reason automatics have been slower than manuals in the past is because of few gear ratios, and the taller gearing that results. The launch is MUCH easier with an automatic than with a manual. You put one foot on the brake, the other on the gas and run the RPMs up against the brake, release the brake, floor it and you're gone.

Read above Im not into drag racing(Ive draged my bikes and cars for fun). Of course I know drag cars are automatic. By the way were rebuilding a 68 and a 69 camaro. My friends are into drag racing not me . I.e

jeremyc74 · 04-23-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtla4

Read above Im not into drag racing(Ive draged my bikes and cars for fun). Of course I know drag cars are automatic. By the way were rebuilding a 68 and a 69 camaro.

0-60 is a drag race.

mtla4 · 04-23-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

0-60 is a drag race.

Youre right

imported_saturn · 04-23-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mprhead5

I love that the only thing in the price range that can match the 135 in performance are cars that can't come close to the trim levels offered by BMW. The 135 is such a nicer car than an EVO and can still beat it in performance. Not to mention the fact that the insurance rates for the bimer are much lower.

The Evo outhandles the 135i and comes with a usable backseat. They both have their pros and cons. Implying that the 135i is hands down the better car is subjective (and pointless) at best.

mistermojorizin · 04-23-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturn

I see no evidence for that claim at all.

i was gonna buy an X before. I read everything about the X. Go read some comparisons between the MR and the GSR and you'll find your "evidence." Stick X would have been slower around the track, thus closer to the 135i in and of itself. As to the 135i, the auto has a slight straight line advantage but a stick has a an advantage on the roadcoarse (basing this on tons of comparisons between stick and torqueconverter versions of the same car).

EDIT: chewablechain, the straight line advantage of the auto doesn't come from the engine. the engine's the same. It comes from the shorter gearing and the ability to keep the turbos spooled during shifts. But this is somewhat offsett by the higher drivetrain loss and the extra weight of the auto. So the actual straight line advantage of an auto is slight. But there is a huge advantage in consistency by taking out the driver's skill factor. By the way, you probably know this, but if your car has a production date in March 08, you may not be able to get the Dinana flash.

sndprssr · 04-24-2008, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

EDIT: chewablechain, the straight line advantage of the auto doesn't come from the engine. the engine's the same. It comes from the shorter gearing and the ability to keep the turbos spooled during shifts. But this is somewhat offsett by the higher drivetrain loss and the extra weight of the auto. So the actual straight line advantage of an auto is slight.

Pretty sure she knows this, and I just thought I would post this again for those that may not have gotten it yet...People on here need to stop assuming that girls do not know anything about cars. Chewable's father was a "car guy" back in the day and taught her, and her husband works on cars, motorcycles, jets and is actually certified to do so. Not all girls are valley girl morons with no car or engine building experience...

imported_saturn · 04-24-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

i was gonna buy an X before. I read everything about the X. Go read some comparisons between the MR and the GSR and you'll find your "evidence." Stick X would have been slower around the track, thus closer to the 135i in and of itself. As to the 135i, the auto has a slight straight line advantage but a stick has a an advantage on the roadcoarse (basing this on tons of comparisons between stick and torqueconverter versions of the same car).

I have seen more than one example of the GSR being faster around a track than the MR. That's counter evidence.

malves85 · 04-24-2008, 11:35 AM

The GSR is faster now but once Mitsu finally works out all the kinks on the MR tranny the MR is supposed to be faster then the GSR.

malves85 · 04-24-2008, 01:02 PM

The Evo X is a great car but I really dont feel like paying 40k for a car from a company thats thought about leaving the U.S and puts out not so great cars with shaddy service. They are having a hard time selling them. Some dealers are selling them for 3-4k under msrp and have literally hundreds sitting on the lots.
The Evo is having a list of issues. Check out different forums and you can compile a nice list. Tranny issues with the GSR, nevermind the MR. Those nice Recaro seats coming apart at the seams and staples showing. paint easily chipping off. ECU issues but Mitsu just released an update. Had no power at all at the low end and engine would shut down if low on gas and going up a hill. You have to do a special maneuver to get the gas tank full. Cheap dash falling apart. Material from doors coming loose. These are off the top of my head that ive recently read in the evo forums. Im sure there are more issues.
Like I said great car and awseome looks but just poor quaility control from Mitsu.

04-23-2008, 03:51 AM	#25
mprhead5 Private First Class 9 Rep 146 Posts Drives: Join Date: Nov 2007 iTrader: (0)	I love that the only thing in the price range that can match the 135 in performance are cars that can't come close to the trim levels offered by BMW. The 135 is such a nicer car than an EVO and can still beat it in performance. Not to mention the fact that the insurance rates for the bimer are much lower.
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04-23-2008, 08:36 AM	#28
mtla4 Lieutenant Colonel 42 Rep 1,756 Posts Drives: Turbo Festiva Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montreal iTrader: (2)	No way an automatic is faster than manual. Sequential-DSG-SMG yes it would be possible. The Steptronic is just a fancy name for an auto gearbox. Lets take per exemple 0-60 with two 135 1 auto 1 manual. The launch will suck with the auto gearbox, while theres probably only one upshift with the manual which is first to second(unless the driver is crappy no way to miss it. I read on Edmunds that this press 135i that they drove was maybe running higher boost.
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04-24-2008, 11:35 AM	#43
malves85 Second Lieutenant 6 Rep 255 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2008 iTrader: (0)	The GSR is faster now but once Mitsu finally works out all the kinks on the MR tranny the MR is supposed to be faster then the GSR.
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04-24-2008, 01:02 PM	#44
malves85 Second Lieutenant 6 Rep 255 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2008 iTrader: (0)	The Evo X is a great car but I really dont feel like paying 40k for a car from a company thats thought about leaving the U.S and puts out not so great cars with shaddy service. They are having a hard time selling them. Some dealers are selling them for 3-4k under msrp and have literally hundreds sitting on the lots. The Evo is having a list of issues. Check out different forums and you can compile a nice list. Tranny issues with the GSR, nevermind the MR. Those nice Recaro seats coming apart at the seams and staples showing. paint easily chipping off. ECU issues but Mitsu just released an update. Had no power at all at the low end and engine would shut down if low on gas and going up a hill. You have to do a special maneuver to get the gas tank full. Cheap dash falling apart. Material from doors coming loose. These are off the top of my head that ive recently read in the evo forums. Im sure there are more issues. Like I said great car and awseome looks but just poor quaility control from Mitsu.
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