aFe headers?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

(P.S. They did have the dyno for their originally designed headers for the E46 on their website showing 10whp gains on a M54B20 - pretty impressive)

Any dynos made by companies should be completely ignored.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Any dynos made by companies should be completely ignored.

I totally agree.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Why would you need to see their facility, what do you hope to gain from that - what do you believe that will tell you? I've already pointed out to you MULTIPLE times already that header design isn't an impossible task, you could do it yourself with online caculator.

So you want dynos? Me too - I've also been waiting for a 3rd Party SS dyno for a while now- same with Evolve, yet I don't see you shying away from recommending their products. (Let's not mention the lackluster gains on the 1 single dyno posted...)

And even if it were just a catless pipe - the design looks to NOT have the bottleneck in flow that the mapleridge headers did for the same price. Hmm...

I'm certainly not one to debate that the mapleridge version was shit.

I'm asking to see the facility because the tools/dyno the use is an incredibly important indicator of what they are able to produce. It's all part of the same understanding that making headers is more than a few calculations.

[MarkkyyMan]

I never understood why people MUST have dyno numbers. The possibilities of error or inaccurate results are greater than most people realize. When was the last time they dyno was calibrated, what altitude is the dyno run being performed at, is it in a true 1:1 gear for the the pull, does it have a fan on the car, what's the temperature, what type of dyno is it(ie mustang dyno or another type) the list goes on and on..

Say supersprint is claiming a certain horsepower number overseas, at a different attitude, different blend of fuel, with a dyno that is built by a different company than we have stateside, which hasn't been calibrated and checked for 4/5 years. Those numbers could vary greatly from something we could produce stateside.

A local automotive school dyno in town can vary 15-20hp from say Lingenfelter or other similar dynos in my area.

[631twentyeighteye]

Everyone always gets their panties in a bunch whenever tune or header discussion comes up. I chose mapleridge because they were in my price range, still provided gains and i mostly wanted the sound. They also fit spot on, and are good quality.

I think visually the supersprints look to be the highest quality and best design, AFE looks like they're made out much inferior quality metal, and the schmieddmans look somewhere in between the two. Mapleridge's are simple stock design with a cat delete that gave me a gigantic boost in low end torque. around 10 ft/lbs at 3k rpm over stock headers.

[Taskmaster]

Well, considering that both headers are amde from the same grade of steel, I don't see where you get the impression that they are inferior -but that's the reason these conversations exist: misinformation and not enough information.

[MarkkyyMan]

"BMW's considerations when building a header have little to do with optimization(as they have other considerations like NVH, emissions, cost)"-Stig

This is just plain wrong. My buddy who is a mechanical engineer at a large engine manufacturer(Cummins, he has also worked for Navistar) says that lots of R&D goes into optimization and performance of exhaust systems by most if not all manufacturers.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

"BMW's considerations when building a header have little to do with optimization(as they have other considerations like NVH, emissions, cost)"-Stig

This is just plain wrong. My buddy who is a mechanical engineer at a large engine manufacturer(Cummins, he has also worked for Navistar) says that lots of R&D goes into optimization and performance of exhaust systems by most if not all manufacturers.

I believe his point was that there optimizing for more than just power. Specifically, emissions and noise are also significant.

[MarkkyyMan]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I believe his point was that there optimizing for more than just power. Specifically, emissions and noise are also significant.

But the suggestion that little consideration is given to power and efficiency is false.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

But the suggestion that little consideration is given to power and efficiency is false.

It's still tertiary to sound and emissions. After that it probably fights with cost, depending on internal intentional gimping, like our stock headers.

Often times even when trying in race applications, OEs don't get it right. Despite the dismissive comments to the contrary, header design is more than punching a few numbers and calling it a day.

[MarkkyyMan]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

It's still tertiary to sound and emissions. After that it probably fights with cost, depending on internal intentional gimping, like our stock headers.

Often times even when trying in race applications, OEs don't get it right. Despite the dismissive comments to the contrary, header design is more than punching a few numbers and calling it a day.

So auto manufacturers don't get headers right in race applications?

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by MarkkyyMan

So auto manufacturers don't get headers right in race applications?

That would be exactly what I'm saying. While I was touring SuperSprint they were making a batch that was just that. The OE had submitted their own design for a rally car, which SuperSprint made along with their own version and sent them back to the OE for comparison testing. OE opted for the SuperSprint version, which can be seen here:

[Taskmaster]

Are we all done circle jerking? Good.

What is the arguement here now? That SuperSprint makes a superior header?
Sure - why not.
That other headers are not as good?
Probably - who knows.
That other headers aren't "worth it?"
Depends on who you ask.

For me, sub $1000 headers are a G-d sent gift. No way was I willing to pay almost $2000 JUST for headers. I'll take potentially a few less hp for less than half the cost.

[kobeballer96]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Are we all done circle jerking? Good.

What is the arguement here now? That SuperSprint makes a superior header?
Sure - why not.
That other headers are not as good?
Probably - who knows.
That other headers aren't "worth it?"
Depends on who you ask.

For me, sub $1000 headers are a G-d sent gift. No way was I willing to pay almost $2000 JUST for headers. I'll take potentially a few less hp for less than half the cost.

Haha thank you! Exactly my thoughts. Too many fan boys on the bmw forums I noticed. And almost all the cars looks the same too. How freaking original......LOL

[Obioban]

TIL: pointing out that a superior product is superior when others are saying it's the same makes you a fanboy.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Are we all done circle jerking? Good.

What is the arguement here now? That SuperSprint makes a superior header?
Sure - why not.
That other headers are not as good?
Probably - who knows.
That other headers aren't "worth it?"
Depends on who you ask.

For me, sub $1000 headers are a G-d sent gift. No way was I willing to pay almost $2000 JUST for headers. I'll take potentially a few less hp for less than half the cost.

Ah I see, factual points=circle jerk.

The reason we are here is because multiple times in this thread, your arguement/statement was that headers=headers. I was explaining to you that that notion incorrect. If you don't want to spend that money, that is 100% fine, that's your choice. But suggesting they are all the same is simply misleading to someone browsing for solid information.

Originally Posted by kobeballer96

Haha thank you! Exactly my thoughts. Too many fan boys on the bmw forums I noticed. And almost all the cars looks the same too. How freaking original......LOL

There is a fine line between being a "fanboy", and supporting/promoting well made products. 8 years ago someone might have suggested I was a fanboy of BMW products. Yes, I was enthused about the things they were making/had made, but it was in a calculated fashion. Now that they have lost everything that once made them good? You would be hard pressed to find someone more disappointed in them.

"Original" or custom often=shit. Expierence in developing a quality product is learned over years of work, not overnight. If you want a functionally inferior car to be different, go right ahead, but approach it in a realistic fashion.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Ah I see, factual points=circle jerk.

The reason we are here is because multiple times in this thread, your arguement/statement was that headers=headers. I was explaining to you that that notion incorrect. If you don't want to spend that money, that is 100% fine, that's your choice. But suggesting they are all the same is simply misleading to someone browsing for solid information.

I said no such things - but if you're arguement is "Brand A headers are better than Brand B headers based on very little data" You're mistaken as well.

I don't know and neither do you, and we won't know until someone tires. It's really that simple.

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

There is a fine line between being a "fanboy", and supporting/promoting well made products. 8 years ago someone might have suggested I was a fanboy of BMW products. Yes, I was enthused about the things they were making/had made, but it was in a calculated fashion. Now that they have lost everything that once made them good? You would be hard pressed to find someone more disappointed in them.

"Original" or custom often=shit. Expierence in developing a quality product is learned over years of work, not overnight. If you want a functionally inferior car to be different, go right ahead, but approach it in a realistic fashion.

It's a line that you teetered on for a while, especially with the whole "Evolve/SS relationship' (And yet not a single dyno exist) Eisenmann is a well-known "Exhaust" maker with years’ experience in the field and they just sell overpriced Mufflers. You would be the first to come to to defend their products and the like because of the name, NOT because the product is good.

What makes them better qualified then a mechanical engineer/Rocket scientist who wants to start their own company? Custom work and new players will always be looked upon with scrutiny (and they should) but they shouldn't be discounted all together, especially since we know so very little.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by kobeballer96

Haha thank you! Exactly my thoughts. Too many fan boys on the bmw forums I noticed. And almost all the cars looks the same too. How freaking original......LOL

Really? Wow.....

Sorry, but I go for function > form. If that means paying for quality products, then please call me a fan boy.

I go for proven results, not something that looks cool, sounds cool...etc. I apologize for my car looking the same....?

It may go as a shocker, but some of us actually compete with our cars. Not boast on the internets that you can beat such and such a car off a red-light, how your car sounds so cool...etc.

My car may look "stanced" but everything is done for a reason. It has its purpose.



Call me a fanboy for buying APEX Wheels, or by going with TCKline. You can classify any brand as a fan-boy brand.

Just like anything, you get what you pay for. TCK DA Shocks will outperform basically any other shock on the market that is offered for a 128i. Does this make me a fanboy because I paid $3k+ for them? You're call.


When it comes to making power, and getting quantifiable results, I'm going with supersprint. I'm already budgeting to get them installed hopefully over winter.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Obioban

TIL: pointing out that a superior product is superior when others are saying it's the same makes you a fanboy.

No, you're most definitely a fanboy of the highest order. Where are those dynographs again?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Really? Wow.....

Sorry, but I go for function > form. If that means paying for quality products, then please call me a fan boy.

This is the second time in the same thread you have inferred something that wasn't stated. I don't think he, or anyone else said that at all, and I'm with him in agreement that $1700 for a few extra HP (and we really don't know how much whp is gained from headers) is excessive. If you want to do it - AWESOME, no one here is downing you.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I go for proven results, not something that looks cool, sounds cool...etc. I apologize for my car looking the same....?

It may go as a shocker, but some of us actually compete with our cars. Not boast on the internets that you can beat such and such a car off a red-light, how your car sounds so cool...etc.

My car may look "stanced" but everything is done for a reason. It has its purpose.



Call me a fanboy for buying APEX Wheels, or by going with TCKline. You can classify any brand as a fan-boy brand.

Just like anything, you get what you pay for. TCK DA Shocks will outperform basically any other shock on the market that is offered for a 128i. Does this make me a fanboy because I paid $3k+ for them? You're call.


When it comes to making power, and getting quantifiable results, I'm going with supersprint. I'm already budgeting to get them installed hopefully over winter.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

This is the second time in the same thread you have inferred something that wasn't stated. I don't think he, or anyone else said that at all, and I'm with him in agreement that $1700 for a few extra HP (and we really don't know how much whp is gained from headers) is excessive. If you want to do it - AWESOME, no one here is downing you.

The same can be applied to coilovers...right?

Standard ST coilovers can do the trick, right?

So what justifies the extra money if it isn't measurable

[MarkkyyMan]

Someone bringing the popcorn?