ABS Sensitivity - Track only

[yandy]

Does anyone else find that the 1 series ABS a bit too sensitive for track use? Specially with good tires and track pads? I had a couple of instructors tell me the same, and just after that I started noticing it and paying attention to it. I believe the may be right.

[pixelblue]

yandy that doesn't sound right. mine hardly ever kicks in. I had it kick in a few times but that was because I was braking hard downhill into a turn but never ever since. what's your setup now? do you feel you're braking late and hard? you may have to back off a bit if that's the case and you'll probably notice brakes overheating on top of that

[yandy]

Haven't tested it to that extreme yet, was just reminiscing on stuff and thought about it. Running either Hawk DTC-70/60 combo or the Carbotech XP16/12 with the NT-01s in the past. I would go in hard and brake hard into the corners, but I don't think it was anything overdone.

The instructors that mentioned it were driving the car, so not myself.

[pixelblue]

well let's see what other people have to say but I certainly didn't experience it much

[blutattoo]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

well let's see what other people have to say but I certainly didn't experience it much

+1

I actually find it hard to engage the ABS on my car unless I am full pedal to the floor. I suppose if I mash it right from the start then I'd get ABS, but with firm brake pressure it doesn't seem to lock up much. Although the deeper I try to go in turns under threshold braking then I'll get it, but that is usually my fault for braking to late and not a problem with the brakes.

That was with the stock pads/fluid/lines though so it may be different with better pads and fluid.

[Focusedintntions]

I find that the initial bite of the dt70's will kick it off sometimes...then i just ease off the pedal a bit and press back down. This is especially prevalent when tires are still cold and not as sticky, or when they've heated up and gotten greasy towards the end of a session. I'll kick off the abs usually like the first session of the day on the 1st couple laps as everything comes up to temp and I get used to the braking sweet spot.

You can ask Gary and a few others here...i brake way late and hard too haha I think most people that haven't really driven our cars would say that the abs is overly sensitive, but the reality is our calipers actually provide a ton of braking pressure the front rotors (more than the GTR's massive calipers) b/c of the large piston size. If they're used to really pressing hard on their cars, and then try the same technique on ours, I can see how they might easily engage the abs.

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

well let's see what other people have to say but I certainly didn't experience it much

+1.. I think Focus said it.. just the first lap or two and maybe i felt it a bit when stuff was cold ...but other than that i think i got the threashold braking down to where im right at the edge..

[yandy]

Originally Posted by Focusedintntions

I find that the initial bite of the dt70's will kick it off sometimes...then i just ease off the pedal a bit and press back down. This is especially prevalent when tires are still cold and not as sticky, or when they've heated up and gotten greasy towards the end of a session. I'll kick off the abs usually like the first session of the day on the 1st couple laps as everything comes up to temp and I get used to the braking sweet spot.

You can ask Gary and a few others here...i brake way late and hard too haha I think most people that haven't really driven our cars would say that the abs is overly sensitive, but the reality is our calipers actually provide a ton of braking pressure the front rotors (more than the GTR's massive calipers) b/c of the large piston size. If they're used to really pressing hard on their cars, and then try the same technique on ours, I can see how they might easily engage the abs.

Originally Posted by DriveHard

+1.. I think Focus said it.. just the first lap or two and maybe i felt it a bit when stuff was cold ...but other than that i think i got the threashold braking down to where im right at the edge..

I feel it come on allot, then ease of, but seems like mine comes on allot more than it should. Could be the tires, were wearing out at that point.

I'll keep a feel out for it this time around and see what I notice.

[fboutlaw]

Originally Posted by yandy

Does anyone else fine the 1 series ABS a bit too sensitive for track use? Specially with good tires and track pads? I had a couple of instructors tell me the same, and just after that I started noticing it and paying attention to it. I believe the may be right.

After switching to Stoptech's BBK and HPS pads, I do find that limit braking in a straight line isn't hard to control to the ABS threshhold, but if you're trying to trail brake into a corner and rotate the car, ABS kicks on quickly and lasts near until I fully lift off.

It seems that it's less the F/R differences in wheel speeds that kick on ABS and more L/R in my opinion. Is this the same thing you're noticing that the ABS is kicking on at turn in or in a straight line?

[GaryS]

Using DTC70/60 pads, I found it so easy to activate ABS, I stopped bedding in to reduce the friction (added benefit is no squeal). I can still activate ABS very easily, but not way too easily like before.

I just remembered, one guy I was talking to said my ABS activates so easily because the DTC70/60 pads are overpowering my Yoko AD08 tires. I don't know. I try to picture that, but I don't really get it.

[int2str]

No problems here.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised how long the ABS stays "out of the way" before it kicks in.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by fboutlaw

After switching to Stoptech's BBK and HPS pads, I do find that limit braking in a straight line isn't hard to control to the ABS threshhold, but if you're trying to trail brake into a corner and rotate the car, ABS kicks on quickly and lasts near until I fully lift off.

It seems that it's less the F/R differences in wheel speeds that kick on ABS and more L/R in my opinion. Is this the same thing you're noticing that the ABS is kicking on at turn in or in a straight line?

Haven't really noticed it trail braking, maybe a couple of times. It mostly is on a straight line, coming in with allot of speed and braking hard.

Originally Posted by GaryS

Using DTC70/60 pads, I found it so easy to activate ABS, I stopped bedding in to reduce the friction (added benefit is no squeal). I can still activate ABS very easily, but not way too easily like before.

I just remembered, one guy I was talking to said my ABS activates so easily because the DTC70/60 pads are overpowering my Yoko AD08 tires. I don't know. I try to picture that, but I don't really get it.

This actually makes sense, which is probably why I noticed it more towards the later end of my NT-01 tires.

Originally Posted by int2str

No problems here.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised how long the ABS stays "out of the way" before it kicks in.

What setup are you running?

[int2str]

Originally Posted by yandy

What setup are you running?

Ferodo DS-2500, RBF fluid. Stock brakes otherwise.
Hankook RS-3, 255's square.

[pixelblue]

evidence seem to be pointing to brake pad compound. sounds like pads with high torque rating like hawk and carbotech maybe the culprit

[Sauce]

In a straight line I have never noticed it. Although now that I think of it, I have noticed that even under what is 100% threshold braking in a straight line, I can still get the thing to turn in. I never really put together that it is most likely the ABS coming in harder. It's a nice little trick in ABS equipped race cars to have it step in a bit sooner on a trailing brake heavy tracks/drivers.

[bavarianstig]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

evidence seem to be pointing to brake pad compound. sounds like pads with high torque rating like hawk and carbotech maybe the culprit

Yandy,

You should not be having problems with ABS, unless you are using high performance pads with bad tires (friction of pads > grip of tires). However, high torque pads should not have an impact on ABS system if you have decent tires.

BMWs ABS system is widely regarded as one of the LEAST invasive systems on the market. So much so, that you will have other people (I have known some Corvette owners) retrofit the ABS module from BMWs into their cars.

I myself have Stoptech BBK, and have used Hawk, Carbotech XP8, 10, 12, and PFC-08 compounds in conjunction with Kuhmo Ecsta XS or Nitto NT-01 tires, and have never had problems. I know that when I switch to my street tires (regrettably which are Continental DWS) that have much less grip, ABS is much more invasive, even with street pads.

I'm guessing your problem is bad tires (too many heat cycles), and the grip just isn't what it used to be. If you have had this problem even when the tires were new, I'd suggest looking at your braking technique and work on modulation.

[Dackelone]

Since you track your car... you ABS sensors might be full of metal particles. That usually happens with higher miles. You can try using some compressed air and blow out any "gunk/crap" that is on the end of the magnetic ABS sensors. Or you can remove each one and clean them manually.

One other thing to check for is loose or worn out wheel bearings. Either of which will allow the ABS pickup wheel(sprocket) to be out of alignment or phase with the ABS sensor. Hence causing the ABS ecu to think your wheel speed is changing when in fact it isn't.

[yandy]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Since you track your car... you ABS sensors might be full of metal particles. That usually happens with higher miles. You can try using some compressed air and blow out any "gunk/crap" that is on the end of the magnetic ABS sensors. Or you can remove each one and clean them manually.

One other thing to check for is loose or worn out wheel bearings. Either of which will allow the ABS pickup wheel(sprocket) to be out of alignment or phase with the ABS sensor. Hence causing the ABS ecu to think your wheel speed is changing when in fact it isn't.

Cool, will give this a shot and report back.

Thanks

[int2str]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

evidence seem to be pointing to brake pad compound. sounds like pads with high torque rating like hawk and carbotech maybe the culprit

You think that the DS-2500 is low torque?!

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by int2str

You think that the DS-2500 is low torque?!

it's lower torque than carbotech and hawk. I was running ds-2500. really like them. I am running pagid's now and they are lower torque than carbotech and hawk. I don't particularly like the high initial bite on some high torque pads. hard to modulate

[yandy]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

it's lower torque than carbotech and hawk. I was running ds-2500. really like them. I am running pagid's now and they are lower torque than carbotech and hawk. I don't particularly like the high initial bite on some high torque pads. hard to modulate

How are the Pagids working out for you? Stopping power? Durability? Worth the extra $$$?

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by yandy

How are the Pagids working out for you? Stopping power? Durability? Worth the extra $$$?

they are actually pretty low torque. would have preferred a little more bite. took me some time to get the modulating down. they seem to be easy on the rotors. five track days and still have roughly half left. drove on them for a month and surprisingly very little squeal and decent bite even when cold. worth the extra bucks, I guess if you figure how quickly one goes through hawks, then the answer is definitely yes!