Engine oil low alert?

[kalvar]

Greetings Addicts! My '09 135i is at 6200 miles and I just got the Engine oil alert display #3 - "Oil level down to minimum" (Page 116 of 1 Series Owner's Manual); I got an oil change after initial break-in (5000 miles ago apprx), so isn't this a little early for Engine oil to run low? I'll run this by the dealer tomorrow, but wanted to know if this sounds normal to you folks? Thanks for feedback; Cheers!

[Tpep22]

were you on an incline of any sort? same thing happened to me yesterday but i was parked on an steep incline going into a parking garage. i got pretty worreid but then realized that it was probably just the angle i was parked at.

[mad chemist]

Originally Posted by Tpep22

were you on an incline of any sort? same thing happened to me yesterday but i was parked on an steep incline going into a parking garage. i got pretty worreid but then realized that it was probably just the angle i was parked at.

Guys,

I got exactly the same problem when I stopped on a hill to take a phone call. I kept driving for a further 15-20 minutes on mostly level roads and the system re-checked and then re-set it self.

However, I did have to add 1 L of oil at around 12,000 miles.

Mad

[jeremyc74]

It's not uncommon for an engine to consum more oil than usual during its early life. Things are still breaking in far past the 1200 mile initial run in.

I would monitor it, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about it at this point.

My GTO (which I also bought new) was consuming a quart of oil every 4k miles up until around 15k miles, then it just completely stopped. It would go the entire oil change interval (around 8k miles) without the level on the dipstick (remember those? ) even moving, and it was that way right up until I sold it with about 70k on the clock.

[MOCKBA]

If you drive uphill long time, can it issue engine damage, since insufficient oil?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MOCKBA

If you drive uphill long time, can it issue engine damage, since insufficient oil?

No. Low oil (at the level where the warning comes on) won't cause any damage at all, or even additional wear. The lubrication system is pressurized, and the level isn't really important as long as the pump isn't being starved. The pickup is at the very bottom of the sump, and a typical engine with a 6 quart capacity will still maintain perfectly normal oil pressure with 3 quarts of oil, with the exception of hard cornering or braking.

Running around a quart low on oil isn't something you should do on a regular basis, but it's not going to cause any problems unless you're really pushing the limits of the chassis, and even then you're probably not going to expereince high Gs long enough to hurt anything.

[JHZR2]

1L per 1000 miles can be considered "acceptible" by most makes. Some it is more like 1L/500-800 miles!

Doesnt make it right, but it does happen.

What oil did you use? Who did your change? Selection of oil is an EXTREMELY important consideration, as the N54 and other DI engines, the automotive world over absolutely thrash and destroy oils. Selection is key.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Selection of oil is an EXTREMELY important consideration, as the N54 and other DI engines, the automotive world over absolutely thrash and destroy oils. Selection is key.

Why would direct injection cause the engine to be harder on oil?

[JHZR2]

Direct injection engines dilute the oil like crazy. This is well known and established in other communities, such as the Audi RS4 groups, and independent analysts have seen it for the N54 as well.

Two small turbos (high speeds), high oil temps, and a combination of direct injection and low friction piston rings that can increase fuel dilution. Almost every kind of thing that stresses an engine oil, all at once.

The high pressure injectors required for direct injection end up causing fuel dilution, due to the spray just traveling too quickly downward in the combustion chamber, to near the piston rings, then just doesn't get burned effectively. DI engines in Europe don't have this problem because they use stratified lean burn modes: the injector pulse is shaped so that it is locally rich around the spark plug and leaner around the edges of the combustion chamber, and the overall air/fuel ratio can be VERY lean (15.0 or more). Such lean operation could result in excess emissions with some of the fuels here in the US, which is why it is not used here, obviously to the detriment of oil life and fuel economy.

The following is a quote from Terry Dyson (made public elsewhere), Terry being a well known and established independent oil analysis specialist, who has worked the N54 for a while. His observations are as follows:
"I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 280 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR. "

This is common in NA DI engines! the RS4, 2.0T, Mazda 2.3L, etc. If trying to keep wear control optimally, 1000 mile OCIs on high-end oils are where you start seeing degradation.

You should see the NASTY deposits on the intake valves in RS-4 engines, due to lack of solvency, oil volititalization, etc. This engine isnt necessarily established enough to verify long-term issues yet. Folks doing used oil analysis and inspections on the intake valves would be highly beneficial, IMO.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by JHZR2

The high pressure injectors required for direct injection end up causing fuel dilution, due to the spray just traveling too quickly downward in the combustion chamber, to near the piston rings, then just doesn't get burned effectively. DI engines in Europe don't have this problem because they use stratified lean burn modes: the injector pulse is shaped so that it is locally rich around the spark plug and leaner around the edges of the combustion chamber, and the overall air/fuel ratio can be VERY lean (15.0 or more). Such lean operation could result in excess emissions with some of the fuels here in the US, which is why it is not used here, obviously to the detriment of oil life and fuel economy.

.

Interesting, but I'm not sure that makes any sense to me. If emissions are the reasoning behind this being a NA problem, the fact that the fuel isn't being burned effectively should raise emissions, right?

So you're saying that the NA versions of the N54 use different injectors than the European versions?

A 1k mile oil change interval is pretty hard to believe honestly.

[JHZR2]

There is significant data to back this up. There is no public access to the N54 information, but the Audi RS4 data is available publically. And much depends on what you intend for the longevity of the vehicle. The oil may be "worn out" at 1000 miles, but if wear rates are "good enough" to allow 60k miles of good typical use, well then it may be "good enough".

Lean operation yields high NOx, which in the USA is far worse of an offender than HC, CO or CO2... this is why you can have a 9 MPG SUV be an "partial zero emissions" vehicle, while a 50MPG diesel is a "gross polluter".

The fuel dilution issue is very real. If BMW specs high HT/HS viscosity in ACEA A3 for a reason, i.e. wear control and enough of a hydrodynamic boundary at the bearings, fuel dilution is the worst thing that can occur. Youre right... 1000 miles is VERY low... Terry is known to be a perfectionist, and maintaining oil and viscosity characteristics for OPTIMAL protection is his goal. Not necessarily always practical, but optimal. That said, the combination of fuel chemistry and oil chemistry, coupled in an overheat condition, can cause significant oxidation, polymerization, sludging and breakdown of the oil in a short time.

Here's what DI does: It moves the fuel injectors a few inches. By relocating the injectors from the intake ports to the combustion chambers, the fuel is no longer vaporized by the hot walls of the intake ports. Instead, it is vaporized by the intake air rushing into the combustion chamber. Like a swamp cooler, the vaporization of the fuel cools the air, allowing for a higher compression ratio, directly improving performance and efficiency.

And since the intake ports are no longer constipated with fuel vapor, there's more space for air. This increase in volumetric efficiency afforded by DI further increases performance.

Unlike conventional port fuel injection, DI allows the fuel to be injected into the chamber after the valves are closed. This capability opens the door for "lean-burn" stratified charge operation.

For now, DI-equipped U.S.-market vehicles will forgo the lean-burn mode, as our fuel's high-sulfur content is incompatible with the catalysts required to support stratified charge operation. Today, sulfur-free gasoline is widely available in Europe. The U.S. is getting there, with all gasoline meeting a standard of 30 ppm or less as of January 2005, but that's still a far cry from nearly 0 ppm.

[JHZR2]

BTW, I wish I had my own 135i to do used oil analysis on. Until folks on here and elsewhere start performing analysis to prove otherwise, we (I at least) have to accept the realities that have been seen by experts.

Terry Dyson is an expert the likes of whom I would take very seriously. I'd love to see some UOAs of folks on here who do lots of highway miles and see how these engines and oils fare.

And, BTW, none of this concedes the fact that one can NEVER use an ACEA A1/A5 oil like Mobil1 5w-30 or equivalent. There are very specific oils that must be used, regardless of your stance and acceptance of data pertaining to DI.

They always have to be robust PAO or POE basestock-based oils with specific design and additization, high HT/HS viscosity in an xw-30 or xw-40 form.

[Quick1 TO BE]

My low oil level light came on at 7800 miles and i added one quart. the dealer said that these engines consume about a quart of oil every 8000 miles or so. they used castrol full synthetic.

i wouldnt worry too much about it since the engine can hold up to 10 quarts if im not mistaken.



Ash

[Si-M240i]

I have put in a total of 1.5 Litres in the first 10,000 miles. I will see what it does over the next 10,000 miles. I have had quite a few New cars and all of them used oil of varying degrees when running in. I had a Volvo S40 1.9D (TDI) and it used 1 Litre in the first 1,000 miles and then never used a drop there after. The 135i uses more than any other car I have owen, but I will reserve my thoughts until I see how it is from now onwards (dealer says this is normal too, but they would say that !!!)

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by Quick1 TO BE

My low oil level light came on at 7800 miles and i added one quart. the dealer said that these engines consume about a quart of oil every 8000 miles or so. they used castrol full synthetic.

BMW's official position is one quart per 750 miles is not excessive (sounds like that came from a lawyer, not an engineer!)

[/quote]i wouldnt worry too much about it since the engine can hold up to 10 quarts if im not mistaken. [/quote]

I'd avoid trying to put in more than 7 if I were you.
Tom

[BForbes]

Moving to Maintenance section...

[kalvar]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

No. Low oil (at the level where the warning comes on) won't cause any damage at all, or even additional wear. The lubrication system is pressurized, and the level isn't really important as long as the pump isn't being starved. The pickup is at the very bottom of the sump, and a typical engine with a 6 quart capacity will still maintain perfectly normal oil pressure with 3 quarts of oil, with the exception of hard cornering or braking.

Running around a quart low on oil isn't something you should do on a regular basis, but it's not going to cause any problems unless you're really pushing the limits of the chassis, and even then you're probably not going to expereince high Gs long enough to hurt anything.

Great info! I went by the dealership and got the oil changed (every 5000miles is my plan) and the Service Mgr said pretty much the same - with the exception of adding that anywhere from 5000-7000 miles is enough to trip the Engine Oil Minimum alert, and also that driving for extended periods up a gradient can trip it off too (that sounded a little dicey); Cheers!

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by kalvar

also that driving for extended periods up a gradient can trip it off too (that sounded a little dicey); Cheers!

The oil level sensor is mounting in the very bottom of the oil sump (the lowest point of the engine). It measures oil level based on temperature change (sounds crazy, I know, but that's what BMW says), so I could see how a slope could alter the reading, by changing the amount of oil around the sensor.

It's an interesting system they're using. I just hope it works well over the long haul.

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The oil level sensor is mounting in the very bottom of the oil sump (the lowest point of the engine). It measures oil level based on temperature change (sounds crazy, I know, but that's what BMW says), so I could see how a slope could alter the reading, by changing the amount of oil around the sensor.

It's an interesting system they're using. I just hope it works well over the long haul.

I had the low oil light come on after parking a Z4 on an uphill grade with 7,000 miles on the odo. It took 2/3 quart to fill and never came on again - of course, that car still had a dipstick...

Tom