Is the motor identical to the 35is motor?

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

355hp + DCT would make this a GREAT car. A standard BMW engine + stick = fail on the powertrain.

Well then this car isn't for you, and you should probably take it off your list. I'd pay extra to get it without DCT... and I own a DCT car.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I LOVE that they lifted the M3 suspension/diff, except they again screwed the pooch by putting the 3.15 diff vs. the higher numerical diff in the 1M.

You're still on about this, though I've tried to correct you before. With the M3 manual's diff you would need to shift 3 times before you hit 90 miles an hour, and that much shifting slows you down. Find a manual street car as fast that shifts 3 times before 90; you won't, because it's a bad idea. You're crying about how you want another 20 hp, then you turn around and say you want a slower car? This is basic stuff- shorter gearing is not always better.
M3 RPM (8400) / 1M RPM (7000)= 1.20
M3 R&P (3.846) / 1M R&P (3.154) = 1.22
So the final drive is proportional to the power band, not that difficult.

[Robert]

Why do people bother arguing. People are entitled to their opinion. Some many think 1M is not a true M while others disagree. Certainly not going to change opposite side's mind even if there is solid proof.

[gstopyra]

Originally Posted by Robert

Why do people bother arguing. People are entitled to their opinion. Some many think 1M is not a true M while others disagree. Certainly not going to change opposite side's mind even if there is solid proof.

It's a fun way to kill time until NAIAS and pricing is released (or military sales offers the 1M in my case). :-)

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I rather have a real racing engine to drive my fun car around. But since i have a GT3 for that purpose i don t care much what is M doing lately.

If i was in search for a racing car for the streets, which i could use a lot on track i would stay far away from turbo s.

Why do you think the porsche supercup has always been no turbo s. Because on track turbo cars will need more maintenace and will break down much easier.

The 1M is a nice sporty car to throw around in some corners. And when the snow comes down put some winter tires on and go hooligan with it. But when i go to the dry track i leave turbo cars at home.

This is from a guy who has raced cars almost all his life. Has had evo s, subaru s, M535i, e36 M3, 135i, 130i, e90 M3, E46 M3 competition, m3 CSL street cars and has raced lots of bmw and some porsches.

What do you guys think. That we will see the 1M turbo engine used random in al sort bmw cars for racing. I am walking 30 years on race tracks. All i can say is. I never have seen an engine which is used so much in all sort of bmw trackday/racecars and that is the S54 3.0 and 3.2 that engine is still used today build in 1 series race cars. If i would build a racecar of the 1M first thing i would do is get the turbo engine out and put the 3.2 M3 engine in.

All you people can say it s the package which is an M car. But this car just misses out on to be a real M or a cult car all because of it s engine.

This 1M coupe has the looks to be a cult car but it s engine could never gain the cult status of the 3.0 and 3.2 M3 engine.

Now imagine if the 1 M coupe had an cult engine like 3.2 M3 engine. It would be one of the greatest cult cars on the planet. But as always when you think something great happens there is always a could breeze comming in. And that cold breeze my friend is the engine that sits in the 1M coupe, which doesn t belong there to be a thru M car which could obtain cult status.

But it will sell

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Robert

Why do people bother arguing. People are entitled to their opinion. Some many think 1M is not a true M while others disagree. Certainly not going to change opposite side's mind even if there is solid proof.

Because some of us understand BMW M, (the ones of us that aren't complaining) and well, frankly there are a lot of people that apparently don't, because they've got blinders on. We're just here to help. And while yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.... it's funny how so many of these opinions are based on things that are nonsensical... For example Kurt..

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

If BMW was going to keep the iS engine as-is, which is EXACTLY what they did, they absolutely intentionally hamstrung the 1M by excluding the DCT, since CLEARLY it was already tuned for this exact engine and similar weight in the Z4.

355hp + DCT would make this a GREAT car. A standard BMW engine + stick = fail on the powertrain.

I LOVE that they lifted the M3 suspension/diff, except they again screwed the pooch by putting the 3.15 diff vs. the higher numerical diff in the 1M.

This car could have been INCREDIBLE instead of sufficient. THAT's what stinks.

Add another 15-20hp, DCT and the higher rear gears and this thing is a ROCKET. It wouldn't just surpass the M3, it would CRUSH it, along with 911 and scare the crap out of 997.2S.

Damn.

How can you complain about the motor not being unique to the chassis and therefore the 1M should not be an M car, but oh yeah, please also make it in an automatic!?! Sure, it's got the fancy name and an acronym (DCT) but really we all know what it is.

Holy crap there was a time when there wasn't a single M car made WITH an automatic, and people are so far removed from this they feel like there is some sort of problem that an automatic transmission is NOT offered. THAT is simply Amazing.

Ok Kurt... tell us what other engine BMW should have used. And please don't say the V8 in the M3 because that would really be ridiculous. We already know that the S54 is too old, and that they car was brought to market in 12-18 months, so it's not like there is the ability to design a new engine, so it's going to have to come from current production.

And then... for extra credit.. tell us *WHY* BMW would intentionally would make a car that would compete against another car in their own lineup???? " CRUSH IT", as you say. I thought that BMW is competing for market share against other companies.. not to reduce their own market share by pitting their own products against each other.

Pete is 100% correct about the differential... Shorter gearing (numerically higher) is used to keep a low torque/high hp motor in the power band. I should know... I've had the least torquey M car in history for over 15 years, and it's got a 4:10 differential. The 1M has GOBS of torque through the majority of the power band. Much more torque than the E92 M3, and the car has 400 lbs less weight to drag around as well.

Pete mentioned that this was explained in another thread.. but perhaps a little visual aid...

http://www.bokchoys.com/differential/GearRatios.htm

Note how the lower displacement motors have shorter gearing than their larger displacement counterparts of the same chassis.

Oh... and finally... just a little hint .. the 1M... even though it's missing the 20 hp and the AUTOMATIC that you want.... it already IS a ROCKET... and it *IS* INCREDIBLE....... It REALLY is.... so I am happy to see that it's still on your list, and that you aren't one of the " I'm not buying because it wasn't made *this* (read: my) way " types..

[brizzom]

Originally Posted by formula M

Well, that^.. would imply the same frame (unibody), steel & structure. A version of the 135i.



So.., either you have not fully read the press release packet, or you just don't care (or place importance) about what makes this 1M different, so (like Mr Roboto), you belittle the car at almost every chance. Or, if that is not the case, then at least dignify your comments of why? Why is the 1M over-hyped 135is..?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the 1M improves upon every known metric, instead of just a few (In which, some members place such high importance on.).


A near perfect car is about balance & BMW M strikes a really good one with the 1M. Plus, the N54 is nearly unbreakable. Horsepower never was the 135i's problem, was it? (understeer, *cough*)

It's all about refinement = ///M




Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays...

All good points.. but what disappoints me is the fact that nothing is unique to it. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the other "is" models get a tuned engine with some other slight improvements? The only significant improvement I see from the specs of the 1m is the LSD.

Either way, there is nothing wrong with the 335is or the z4is.. they are nice just not my cup of tea

[brizzom]

Originally Posted by Robert

Why do people bother arguing. People are entitled to their opinion. Some many think 1M is not a true M while others disagree. Certainly not going to change opposite side's mind even if there is solid proof.

It's all in good fun

[Jaguar66]

Originally Posted by Technic

Do a search for BMW M Division and you will find out what the "core values" are.

I searched. This is the only statement that qualifies for what M Motorsport Division stands for. From BMWs Motorsport Division
http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/ms_en

Maximum individuality and sportiness: with its three business areas BMW M Automobile, BMW Individual and BMW Driver Training, BMW M GmbH is a comprehensive production and service company, which has been developing innovative, high-performance engines for over 30 years.

High-tech, individuality and safety – the BMW M service range offers all aspects of perfection and exclusivity. In the 2010 season, the company will once again demonstrate its strengths as "Official Car" partner of the MotoGP World Championship

The 1 Series M Coupe belongs here

[Jaguar66]

Originally Posted by brizzom

I will say what many have been saying all along from the beginning..

1m = completely overhyped 135is

Except that BMW is not one of the many. If BMW calls it an M Car, that is what makes it one, is this not correct? Every M car made has been from BMW, and every non M car from BMW isn't one. It is by definition an M car.

Just because someone doesn't like something about it, doesn't change the fact the the maker of the car is calling it a M car.

[Advevo]

Has been developing innovative, high-performance engines for over 30 years.

Yes but it s now tuning AG engines for the comming 30 years.

What i mention earlier M has become more a tuning company. I saw M more as manufacturer but with the change to AG turbo engines it more a tuning company.

So for me and lots of others the special feeling owning an M car is flowing away more and more.

The sticker on the engine cover should say Tuned by Bmw M. It is certainly not powered by Bmw M.

This though has nothing to do how good the 1M will be. How much fun this car can be.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Has been developing innovative, high-performance engines for over 30 years.

Yes but it s now tuning AG engines for the comming 30 years.

What i mention earlier M has become more a tuning company. I saw M more as manufacturer but with the change to AG turbo engines it more a tuning company.

So for me and lots of others the special feeling owning an M car is flowing away more and more.

The sticker on the engine cover should say Tuned by Bmw M. It is certainly not powered by Bmw M.

This though has nothing to do how good the 1M will be. How much fun this car can be.

Oh please give it a rest. You are going to split hairs between" tuned by " and "powered by "? If "powering by BMW M means only motor design then changing a single
component in the motor changes this right? But I'm sure you feel it has to be the entire motor right? Even though a far like the E30 M3 want a complete motor design right? It's a mongrel mix of bastardized motors. Sheesh. Yes the company is changing what it does to cars. BMW M has been doing that for 30 years. SMG, DCT, MDM, the M differential, design of suspension components, aero design, and yes of course, they build and design and also TUNE engines. They have been tuning all of these things and more over the last 30 years and I am sure they will do more in the future. The simple fact is there always has been more to BMW M than engine design. Personally I completely disagree that BMW is not still doing motor design. The S63 in the X5M and X6M are a clear testament to this. Even, if, in a turbo era, all there is left is tuning an AG motor, is that not still engine development? I saw an article recently that called BMW M a skunkworks. I think that's a very correct name. They literally modify all that they can on a BMW AG car. In the case of the 1M there was no time/money to develop a new engine, and they developed everything they could. BMW M develops items for BMW AG and if there isn't the timeline or the budget from BMW AG for a project that BMW M wants to do then what else can be done?

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Robert

Why do people bother arguing. People are entitled to their opinion. Some many think 1M is not a true M while others disagree. Certainly not going to change opposite side's mind even if there is solid proof.

I agree, but they were many invalid arguments I guess - such as "it is just an overhyped IS, because it hasn't got an unique engine." M has always been about the whole package, including the E92 M3, which by specs it is inferior to the RS4 and C63, but it is substantially quicker around the track and give the best enjoyment.

Yes, it has a unique engine - but remember everyone was up in arms and saying that the M3 should never have a V8? How disappointed many M3 owners was when it was no longer a I6? I was one, but than I again, I thoroughly enjoyed it when I had a chance to sample it at driver's training.

The 1M has been substantially modified from the 135i, the wider track, different suspension setup (where the aluminium damper and rear-link setup is unique to the 1M and expected to be used in the next M3), LSD, different transmission, better brakes. Although it hasn't been confirmed, reading from various source suggested that the N54 for the 1M would be built by M and mate it at the plant with M tools like the other M cars.

I guess - we have got some valid arguments discussing if it is a true M car or not, and I think advevo as per below has got some very valid points...

Originally Posted by Advevo

Has been developing innovative, high-performance engines for over 30 years.

Yes but it s now tuning AG engines for the comming 30 years.

What i mention earlier M has become more a tuning company. I saw M more as manufacturer but with the change to AG turbo engines it more a tuning company.

So for me and lots of others the special feeling owning an M car is flowing away more and more.

The sticker on the engine cover should say Tuned by Bmw M. It is certainly not powered by Bmw M.

This though has nothing to do how good the 1M will be. How much fun this car can be.

The development of the S63 has changed M - I guess Advevo is right - M is going to be providing tuned engines from now on. The S63 is based on the 4.4 V8 TT N63, and the up coming M3 "is currently speculated" to be based on a N55. The next M5 (and I imagine M6 will share the same engine) has an updated S63. However, if it still give you the fun that you are after in a car, and if it still stirs the same emotions of what the previous M cars did, would it matter that it no longer have an engine fully developed by M?

I know the 1M engine doesn't even get a S designation as at best it is M tuned, if not identical to the IS engines. Does it make it less a M car than any other M car in history if it gives the same emotion it did when you are in the driver sit?

I am disappointed that not more work has been done on the engine, and I would adjust how much I am prepared to pay for this car. However, I still believe this is a very true M car because this is what M is all about (probably with the exception of the E60) - the integration of all parts to give you something more.

[///Mangler]

How many of the nay sayers her work for a Billion dollar company? Do you know what "time to market" and "project budget" mean? They had both. This new 1M is all they could do with these two restraints. Period.

T

[MrRoboto]

It really is too early to tell...need to see it in person, read some reviews, test drive, etc.

Some of you have to take off the rose colored glasses though. The 1M is surely a great car but it is nowhere near as 'special' as M3s or M5s through the years. Strip away the borrowed M3 bits, LSD, brakes, etc and what do you have... a factory tuned 135 with 'questionable' styling.

A 'budget' minded M car is not a bad thing, lets just keep it all in perspective.

PS. Even though I do have my name on the list for a 1M...I am still not sold.

[theblackangus]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

How many of the nay sayers her work for a Billion dollar company? Do you know what "time to market" and "project budget" mean? They had both. This new 1M is all they could do with these two restraints. Period.

Saying "is all they could do" has such a negative connotation. I say this because what they have done in a year is great, I look at this as the answer to everyone who wanted a lighter smaller M3. The 1M is more M3 than 1er in many ways.

Price point of the vehicle and target market says it all really.
Time to market doesn't matter so much as project budget.
If they had the same amount of time and a much larger price point and budget we would have a different car, and a lot of us who are excited couldn't afford the product.

If we had a different target market say "Track Day Car ONLY" then we would have had something different as well.

Cars are about the challenge of making a great car for X dollars and X market.
That's also the fun in buying them. You have X models to choose from and its up to you to decide what is the best model for you.

Sounds like a lot of people want M to mean "Pure Motorsport (Hardcore, Stripped)" and others want M to mean "Motorsport but with a luxury flourish (Automatic, Leather, 4 seats, etc)".

But most of us just want M to be a great DD that was designed with a sports cars balance and enough power to get from point A to point B while laying down rubber (straight or sideways). And most of all alot of people want an M type car but can't afford it - This is the market BMW needs to tap. This means that they need to have more 1M type models to really give the Joy of driving back to the people who really want it.

Im sure the M3 folks are really pissed about the M3 GTS not having a bespoke V10 and carbon fiber body to make it a "Real" race car.... I mean the GTS is just alot of off the shelf parts with a bit of tuning.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

Well then this car isn't for you, and you should probably take it off your list.

How about I worry about MY list, and you worry about yours. The discussion is about the car, not about me.

I'd pay extra to get it without DCT... and I own a DCT car.

Good for you.

Corrected:

You're still on about this, though I've tried AND FAILED BECAUSE A FALSEHOOD CAN'T BE PROVEN to correct you before. With the M3 manual's diff you would need to shift 3 times before you hit 90 miles an hour, and that much shifting slows you down. Find a manual street car as fast that shifts 3 times before 90; you won't, because it's a bad idea. You're crying about how you want another 20 hp, then you turn around and say you want a slower car? This is basic stuff- shorter gearing is not always better.
M3 RPM (8400) / 1M RPM (7000)= 1.20
M3 R&P (3.846) / 1M R&P (3.154) = 1.22
So the final drive is proportional to the power band, not that difficult.

Torque isn't even a question. The ONLY number that matters, at ANY RPM/SPEED/WEIGHT/GEARING is HP. Sure, if you shuffle the numbers correctly you can eventually get to where HP starts, but the bottom line is, talking about torque is like talking about atmospheric pressure. It matters, but it's an input to THE answer: HP.

Again with your focus on straight line, multiple gear change acceleration comparisons with THE WRONG TRANSMISSION and a preselected range that favors your perspective. How about instead we compare within a gear, or across gears with 1M + DCT + correct gears, vs 1M + manual + highway gears? Yea, it would be a butt-whipping issued by the DCT car.

[theblackangus]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Some of you have to take off the rose colored glasses though. The 1M is surely a great car but it is nowhere near as 'special' as M3s or M5s through the years. Strip away the borrowed M3 bits, LSD, brakes, etc and what do you have... a factory tuned 135 with 'questionable' styling.

Yes, strip out the stuff that makes the car great and what do you have?
Strip that stuff away from the M3 and what do you have? A 3 series.
Strip that stuff away from a Ferrari and what do you have? A Fiat.

What kind of thought process is that?

It's the balance of the combination that matters. Everything is just a bunch of crap banged together. Its the way its banged together that matters.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

How can you complain about the motor not being unique to the chassis and therefore the 1M should not be an M car,

I am not denying it because I didn't re-read all my old posts, but I don't recall stating that this "should not be an M car". If I did, I mis-spoke. My issue with it is that I like unique, powerful engines. In my opinion, and that's all any of us have here, the 1M, being in THE high performance group of BMW, shouldn't have an engine essentially identical to several non-M cars. That's it.

but oh yeah, please also make it in an automatic!?! Sure, it's got the fancy name and an acronym (DCT) but really we all know what it is.

I see it as the best of both worlds: makes the car faster, fully manual if you wish, fully auto when you don't want to mess with it.

Holy crap there was a time when there wasn't a single M car made WITH an automatic, and people are so far removed from this they feel like there is some sort of problem that an automatic transmission is NOT offered. THAT is simply Amazing.

The problem is, the "auto" we're discussing makes the car faster. That is historically NOT the case. It used to be that the autos were slower/less efficient.

Ok Kurt... tell us what other engine BMW should have used. And please don't say the V8 in the M3 because that would really be ridiculous. We already know that the S54 is too old, and that they car was brought to market in 12-18 months, so it's not like there is the ability to design a new engine, so it's going to have to come from current production.

Same engine, with same overboost, +20hp and move/hold the peak HP to 6800 rpm.

And then... for extra credit.. tell us *WHY* BMW would intentionally would make a car that would compete against another car in their own lineup???? " CRUSH IT", as you say. I thought that BMW is competing for market share against other companies.. not to reduce their own market share by pitting their own products against each other.

Clearly they didn't want to do that. But that issue is THEIR problem; as a consumer, I'd prefer the better product that I described above.

Pete is 100% correct about the differential... Shorter gearing (numerically higher) is used to keep a low torque/high hp motor in the power band.

Being "in the powerband longer" is the same as saying "accelerating slower". They COULD just put a single speed transmission or maybe an old Chevy PowerGlide in there, with a 2.73:1 (well, they almost DID hit that ratio!) in there if all the glory was in staying anywhere in the 1500 - 5000 range.

Oh... and finally... just a little hint .. the 1M... even though it's missing the 20 hp and the AUTOMATIC that you want.... it already IS a ROCKET... and it *IS* INCREDIBLE....... It REALLY is.... so I am happy to see that it's still on your list, and that you aren't one of the " I'm not buying because it wasn't made *this* (read: my) way " types..

Yea, on this, we agree.

[Pete_vB]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

Torque isn't even a question. The ONLY number that matters, at ANY RPM/SPEED/WEIGHT/GEARING is HP. Sure, if you shuffle the numbers correctly you can eventually get to where HP starts, but the bottom line is, talking about torque is like talking about atmospheric pressure. It matters, but it's an input to THE answer: HP.

Again with your focus on straight line, multiple gear change acceleration comparisons with THE WRONG TRANSMISSION and a preselected range that favors your perspective.

???

We are not talking torque or HP here. We are not talking DCT- please stay on topic. This is simple: by saying the 1M should use the M3 manual R&P you are saying BMW should have made the car shift into 4th gear on a 6 MT before 90 mph, shifting 3 times in roughly 8 seconds.

Please explain why BMW should have done this? Again, you won't find a single similar car from any manufacture with that gearing. Please enlighten us- what is it that you know that every auto manufacture has somehow missed? What makes this better than what BMW did?

[theblackangus]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

I see it as the best of both worlds: makes the car faster, fully manual if you wish, fully auto when you don't want to mess with it.

There are different applications here being discussed.
1. Racing - M-DCT ("Fastest")
2. Luxury - M-DCT ("Don't want to be bothered")
3. Sporty Driving - Manual ("Driving Involvement")

They really boil down to two worlds.
1. Driving involvement (Manual)
2. Driving luxury (Fastest\Don't want to be bothered)

As far as driving involvement M-DCT does not make the car fully manual. I certainly don't see it sprouting a clutch pedal or a gear shift knob!
</Hammond On> But it would be cool if it did! Press a button and the shifter rises from the center column, a pedal drops down on the left, all with mechanical whiring sounds and claxon's warning you - "You are now in control!"
</Hammond Off>

I don't really care how fast I am at the track, because I'm not racing. I do care about the fun I have at the track (someday) and on the road (everyday). That's the driver involvement.

Sports cars have been classically "driving involvement" cars ala Miata, Boxter, Elise, etc. These cars all have iconic status as everyday mans sports cars, and I think we can all agree the 1M is meant to appeal to the sports car lover in us.

Really you are not getting the best of both worlds as the two worlds boil down to I want "Fastest/Luxury" or I want "driving involvement", and as you inferred the fastest option is not the most "involving" option now.

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

The problem is, the "auto" we're discussing makes the car faster. That is historically NOT the case. It used to be that the autos were slower/less efficient.

Someday the fastest cars will be the ones you don't drive at all. Fancy a roller coaster ride at the track? That's just more of the world you described, albeit a bit unfair of an extreme.

When there is money at stake then I will say "Fastest Car Please", otherwise I will say "Funnest Car Please!".

Happy Motoring!

[02fireman]

I may be just a dumb fireman but something tells me that if the 1M had JUST an Is engine they wouldn't have had to test it as much as they did. It would have been more of a bolt on and go with minor tests.
Either way this dumb fireman will be in Munich next Oktoberfest to pick one up. If anyone else is interested in doing the Ring with more than one 1M, pick one up and let's go!

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Pete_vB

???

We are not talking torque or HP here. We are not talking DCT- please stay on topic.

Well, this thread contains ALL of those discussion points, and I believe that I'm able to select my own talking points. Feel free to select your own as well.

This is simple: by saying the 1M should use the M3 manual R&P you are saying BMW should have made the car shift into 4th gear on a 6 MT before 90 mph, shifting 3 times in roughly 8 seconds.

With DCT that's irrelevant.

Please explain why BMW should have done this? Again, you won't find a single similar car from any manufacture with that gearing. Please enlighten us- what is it that you know that every auto manufacture has somehow missed? What makes this better than what BMW did?

For brisk driving on the street, I won't be accelerating 0-90 very often, since I won't be setting up any drag race events. More than likely, I'll be back and forth across a single pair of gears as I approach one curve then accelerate out toward the next.

Besides, according to the DCT-haters, there's pretty much nothing on Earth as fun as shifting, even if it's slower. I'm surprised more folks here aren't lobbying for a 10 speed manual with a 4.56 gear out back. LOL.