S2000 vs 128 Hands on the other foot!

[Midgad]

So last year messed with my buddy who has an S2000.
I mentioned how I felt the 28 with step was sorta faster than the s with a manual.
Well last weekend we traded rides for about 10 highway miles.
Loved the handling of the S, so "go cart" feel! The steering response is awesome. Car is a buzz to drive, felt total adrenalin rush, like I had 5 cups of coffee.
But, I could not keep up with the (my) 1 no matter how hard I tried!
Yes! I am NOT a pro mt driver, def a bit rusty. Also cant believe how much you need to push the s2000, (was impressed when I saw the 8700 redline.)
Problem is you need to rev the engine so high for torque that if you slowed, and had to down shift to maintain that same torque, that time it that took made you lose so much time.
Again Im not used to his ride so that was a handicap for me.
Overall did like the S2000 but couldnt wait to get back into the 1.
..bit of a work out driving the S.
Now for the good part.. His opinion on the 1.
He really was impressed with the 1 and thought it was 10x better than he thought it would be.
Had him drive in SD of course!
He told me he thought it would drive just like a smaller 3 series, but could not believe how much fun factor the car had.
Loved the way the SD gearing held the lower gear during drivng round curves and upshifted on the straight away.
...both agreed the 1 drive was a "refined" sports car drive.
He felt the car was so much faster than even his other car.... a 335i...
He even thought my car was a TT!
Thought it even sounded like it had a turbo.
I reminded him I thought it was faster than his S2000, but I cant drive a MT for sh*t.
He's spying a z4, told him shoot do the 35!
Was very cool trying to keep up with my 1 in an S2000!

[1-2MANY]

lol nice, but feeling faster than a 335i? iono about that.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Midgad

So last year messed with my buddy who has an S2000.
I mentioned how I felt the 28 with step was sorta faster than the s with a manual.
Well last weekend we traded rides for about 10 highway miles.
Loved the handling of the S, so "go cart" feel! The steering response is awesome. Car is a buzz to drive, felt total adrenalin rush, like I had 5 cups of coffee.
But, I could not keep up with the (my) 1 no matter how hard I tried!
Yes! I am NOT a pro mt driver, def a bit rusty. Also cant believe how much you need to push the s2000, (was impressed when I saw the 8700 redline.)
Problem is you need to rev the engine so high for torque that if you slowed, and had to down shift to maintain that same torque, that time it that took made you lose so much time.
Again Im not used to his ride so that was a handicap for me.
Overall did like the S2000 but couldnt wait to get back into the 1.
..bit of a work out driving the S.
Now for the good part.. His opinion on the 1.
He really was impressed with the 1 and thought it was 10x better than he thought it would be.
Had him drive in SD of course!
He told me he thought it would drive just like a smaller 3 series, but could not believe how much fun factor the car had.
Loved the way the SD gearing held the lower gear during drivng round curves and upshifted on the straight away.
...both agreed the 1 drive was a "refined" sports car drive.
He felt the car was so much faster than even his other car.... a 335i...
He even thought my car was a TT!
Thought it even sounded like it had a turbo.
I reminded him I thought it was faster than his S2000, but I cant drive a MT for sh*t.
He's spying a z4, told him shoot do the 35!
Was very cool trying to keep up with my 1 in an S2000!

You're right, you are rusty with a manual and a high rpm torque engine.
It doesn't slow you down having a high revving engine. With an engine like that you don't downshift to maintain torque. That's the opposite of what you need to do. Downshifting too low drops it out of it's torque band.
Use the available high rpm torque along with the lower gear, and UPSHIFT to hit the power band again once you're at or near redline. That engine is not designed to be driven like a slow cruising GT. You're slowing it down because you don't know how to drive it. Keep the revs up, that's what the awesome manual in the S2000 is for. I don't know which year S you were driving, but for example the 2002 model hit it's power peak HP is AT 8300rpm! and redlined at 9000rpm. Torque peak is at 7300rpm. Less than that and the power feels very flat.
In 2004 the engine displacement went up, torque went up, but redline came down to 8100rpm. Torque peak and HP peak dropped in the rev band too, 6500 & 7800 respectively.
Redline is where you need to launch at. The original S' test around 5.8 seconds to 60, later versions around 5.5, both faster than your 128i.
And, as far as your 128i keeping up on twisty roads, well, get something else.

You're probably too used to thinking that you shouldn't keep the engine constantly revving above 4000rpm when driving hard as you would in the 128, when in fact, that IS what you need to do. That car wasn't designed to be driven with short shifts to keep the revs low.
The 128i and 135i die off well before 7000rpm redline, where the S2000 is LOVING it up there, all day.

[jayson]

Having owned both an S2k and now a 128i, I pretty much agree with your assessment. No doubt though, S2k is a drivers car and half the fun of owning one is revving the hell out of it. It has the best steering response and gearbox that I have ever used in a street vehicle hands down.

[new2the3]

335i would smoke a 128i

[JimD]

I think another way of saying this is the S2000 is faster as long as you wind the piss out of it. Listening to a 4 cylinder scream is not my idea of a fun ride. Even worse to me is a turbo 4. A torqueless 4 cylinder at normal rpms is not my idea of fun. To those that like them, have fun! It seems Honda V-Techs in general and the S2000 in particular are great examples of the rev happy 4. At least they are NA.

Jim

[tgxmike]

I'll take low end torque over high revs any day.... just ask the audi LeMans team with their desiel (ok off topic).

IMO Low end torque in an engine is great, but it also need to have max HP at high rpm. (Just like the 1er). You can race the hell out of the engine >4500rmp all day and still be able to get the car moving without revving to the max even if you were just crusing.

128i was for me, although lots of respect for the s2000.

[Cuz5150]

Torque get's ya moving', Horse Power get's ya grooving

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Cuz5150

Torque get's ya moving', Horse Power get's ya grooving

Low rpm torque get's you moving, high rpm torque keeps you movin and groovin.

Our TT engine has nice low rpm torque, but still not like a large V8.
Our best is mid-rpm torque, and our worst is high rpm, which we don't have a lot of.
I'm glad to see the N55 come. I just hope that it lives up to BMW's claim of more torque at low revs, but still have some at higher revs, though not quite enough.

[Stig'sM3]

if you couldnt keep up with the 128 while driving the s2k then you were not driving it right.

I'm a former s2k owner and that little car can move, not to mention the handling and near 50/50 distribution.

...but I had to upgrade to a 1

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The original S' test around 5.8 seconds to 60, later versions around 5.5, both faster than your 128i.
And, as far as your 128i keeping up on twisty roads, well, get something else.

Just for reference, Car and Driver rated the newer S2000 as a 5.4s 0-60 and the 128i as a 5.8s 0-60. Not sure which version S2000 the OP's buddy has.

EDIT: Just realized OP had a 128i vert, which C/D rated at 6.2s.

[moff]

What's the 0-100mph of a 128i Convertible? I am pretty sure it's not as quick as an S2000 at 14 secs flat...

I owned 2 Honda S2000's and loved them, amazing car with great handling and an awesome engine!!

[Bimmer-Bob]

C/D 0-100 stats:

2nd gen S2000: 15s
128i Coupe: 15.7s
128i Convertible: 17.3s

(Remember, times would be closer if the OP's friend is driving a 1st gen S2000.)

[moff]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

C/D 0-100 stats:

2nd gen S2000: 15s


(Remember, times would be closer if the OP's friend is driving a 1st gen S2000.)

Ahhh we didn't get 2.2l engines in the UK, only the 2.0l 9000rpm engines. I had a 2003 and a 2006 car - amazing!!

[TMR013]

I has an S'ter before my 135. Think your assesment is about right on. You really have to work the S to get it's best performance. But on a road with enough turns it will keep up with anything. Was out on Mingus Mt. in AZ a couple years ago and a bunch of sport bikes were ahead of me. Try as they might, they could not shake me. They kept pulling moves then looking back and my smiling face was still there. Think it torqed them off after a while.

[Stig'sM3]

racing a streetbike is a stupid idea.

no way an s2k can ever keep up with a good rider, and why would you endanger him in such a way?

[pjdvd]

In defense of the OP: considering it was not his S2K, I wouldn't blame him IF he was a little worried about driving his buddies car at 7-9K rpm. It took me a long time to get used to the fact that the S2K liked being driven up there.

I do miss the scream, shifter, and the handling of the S2K but I love the low end torque and power I got for the same price i bought the S2000 for 8 years earlier. Plus, I'm not as aggressive a driver as I used to be. Seems my conscience (and insurance rates) is getting the better of me.

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by egt135i

racing a streetbike is a stupid idea.

no way an s2k can ever keep up with a good rider, and why would you endanger him in such a way?

Was not racing. Just keeping up with them on the road. And no, that does not mean tailgating. Kept my distance back. No way endangering.
And I agree, rider quality had a lot to do with it. But I did give them a run and I think it surprised them. Have you ever driven an S2K on a tight twisty? You might be surprised as well.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by pjdvd

In defense of the OP: considering it was not his S2K, I wouldn't blame him IF he was a little worried about driving his buddies car at 7-9K rpm. It took me a long time to get used to the fact that the S2K liked being driven up there.

I do miss the scream, shifter, and the handling of the S2K but I love the low end torque and power I got for the same price i bought the S2000 for 8 years earlier. Plus, I'm not as aggressive a driver as I used to be. Seems my conscience (and insurance rates) is getting the better of me.

True. However, he made an assessment that the 128i was faster than the S, so that is what most of us are addressing.

Driving a high revving engine that is designed for high rpms is not abusing it or ringing it's neck. It's simply driving it the way it was designed to be driven. A lot of people don't like the RX8 for the same reasons, but a rotary engine is designed to be revved high and it sound sweet when doing so. Also, like the S the RX8 has amazing handling that our 1's simply can not match. Depending on the road these "low powered" sports cars rule.
On a track the 135i needs all of it's power to even try to keep up.
The 128i? Forget it.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by egt135i

racing a streetbike is a stupid idea.

no way an s2k can ever keep up with a good rider, and why would you endanger him in such a way?

Just for example, the best racing auto's, F1, against the best bikes, MotoGP:
MotoGP 2003 - Malaysian Grand Prix:
Fstest Lap, Valentino Rossi 2'02.480 ~ 163 Km/h

F1 2004 - Malaysian Grand Prix
Fastest Lap, J.P. Montoya 1'34.223 ~ 212 Km/h

BTW, engine size and power restrictions have changed for F1 and MotoGP since then. F1 is again faster in straight line, top speed and track courses.

4 contact patches vs 2 respectively smaller ones, does have much to do with all this, even in street bikes and cars.

I love bikes and have been riding since the 80's, just so you know that I'm not being a car snob.

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Also, like the S the RX8 has amazing handling that our 1's simply can not match. Depending on the road these "low powered" sports cars rule.
On a track the 135i needs all of it's power to even try to keep up.
The 128i? Forget it.

Oh, come on. The 128i is significantly more powerful than the RX-8 and lies squarely in its class. Sure, it's reknowned for it's handling, but I still don't see it outrunning a 135i (and totally dismissing the 128i is quite a stretch).

(I would also add as an aside that the same people (ie, professional reviewers) who rave about the RX-8's handling are also quite enamored of the way the 1er acquits itself on the road. It's pretty much only on enthusiasts' boards that you begin to hear complaints regarding BMW's suspension dynamics, and I suspect if you lurk on an RX-8 board long enough you'll find similar threads regarding "necessary" suspension upgrades and talk of how the car "shoud have come from the factory," etc.)

[Midgad]

Originally Posted by new2the3

335i would smoke a 128i

He didnt say his car was slower, just that the 28 seemed peppier!

Also yeah it was Im pretty sure 1st gen s2k. Redlined @ like 9k.
And yes, was afraid to ride out the gears that high, even tho my buddy told me to, it just felt not right.
Still the s2k is a super fun ride, just sorta like riding a bucking bronco..ya gotta hold on!