Max negative camber?

[SiN55]

On stock car. What can I expect without any modifications? Thanks!

[SlicktopTTZ]

I believe it's only around -1.8 degrees with the "alignment pin mod".

[nordique14]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

I believe it's only around -1.8 degrees with the "alignment pin mod".

assuming you are taking about the front then it will be closer to -0.5* when you pull the alignment pins. -0.3* if you leave the pins in.

With the M3 front tension rods you can get between -0.7* to -1.0. Add Vorschlag camber plates and you can get up to about -2.2* to -2.5*.

You will not get any more than that with stock springs/shocks.

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by nordique14

assuming you are taking about the front then it will be closer to -0.5* when you pull the alignment pins. -0.3* if you leave the pins in.

With the M3 front tension rods you can get between -0.7* to -1.0. Add Vorschlag camber plates and you can get up to about -2.2* to -2.5*.

You will not get any more than that with stock springs/shocks.

Thanks for the correction, I was WAY off!

Damn, no wonder the front rolls over so much!

[nordique14]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Damn, no wonder the front rolls over so much!

Yep. Our cars are very camber limited from the factory. That is what finally made me break down and buy camber plates.

you can also get Dinan fixed camber plates. I am not sure what they give but I think it is about -0.7* or -0.8* additional camber.

[Ruffan]

That's about right for the Dinan plates. I have them and the M3 controll arms and the struts pushed in (alignment pin gone) and I have about -1.7/-1.8 degrees. Still not enough for wider tires unfortunately, so if you want to go wider in front you should probably head straight for the Vorshlag adjustable plates.

[DriveHard]

What is the general concensus about the Bias between from and rear camber?

For instance, if i got .5* front (with pins pulled) what would be a correct setting for the rear?? 1.0* ( that would be +.5* rear camber bias)

I track for fun, and have dedicated track tires, but the car is my DD on the OEM runflats.

[nordique14]

There is no fixed relationship between front and rear camber. Think of camber as a suspension tuning parameter. You use it to get more or less grip. If you add more camber to the rear then the rear will grip better. If you take some out then it will grip less. Of course any camber is a trade off with tire wear.

I think BMW spec is -1.5* for the rear camber. When I ran stock camber up front, I set rear camber to -1.0* to help reduce understeer. After I put the camber plates on could make use of more grip in the rear so I had it put back to stock at -1.5*

[SiN55]

Originally Posted by nordique14

assuming you are taking about the front then it will be closer to -0.5* when you pull the alignment pins. -0.3* if you leave the pins in.

With the M3 front tension rods you can get between -0.7* to -1.0. Add Vorschlag camber plates and you can get up to about -2.2* to -2.5*.

You will not get any more than that with stock springs/shocks.

-0,3/-0,5? What is OEM settings front/rear?

[timhatimay]

I think the stock spec is somewhere between -.1 and -.3 or something close. With M3 arms only, I had about -1.0*, but could maybe push it slightly more. I run -2.0* with M3 arms and Dinan Camber plates, but that is probably almost the max. I run basically stock in the rear (~-1.7). Any more than this on non-adjustables and I would be scared about uneven tire wear. I guess thats the beauty of adjustables.

I think OP was curious about stock, and unfortunately there isn't much room there. Probably -.3 - -.5 is going to be the maximum even with the pins removed. I think every car is slightly different though.

Tim

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by nordique14

There is no fixed relationship between front and rear camber. Think of camber as a suspension tuning parameter. You use it to get more or less grip. If you add more camber to the rear then the rear will grip better. If you take some out then it will grip less. Of course any camber is a trade off with tire wear.

I think BMW spec is -1.5* for the rear camber. When I ran stock camber up front, I set rear camber to -1.0* to help reduce understeer. After I put the camber plates on could make use of more grip in the rear so I had it put back to stock at -1.5*

Thanks for the input.. I was aware of the camber affect.. I was looking for actually "what has worked for others" kind of inf..

For instance on my miata, without suspension upfit, it is well know that the car in general behaves better with a .5* to .75* front to rear bias. i.e if you set the front to .75* rule of thumb is set rear to 1.25* etc etc.

Its a real shame we have to deal with our underster issues as we do. damn the $20k Miata has all 3 adjustments front and rear from the factory !!! I guess thats why them make for such a great handeling car !!

Thanks again.. I'm gonna max the front, and probabbly fall into between 1.0* to 1.5* in the rear.. ( i hope) but no more than that for wear issues..

[130i-ftw]

so -1 is the max before noticing any wear issues ?

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted by 130i-ftw

so -1 is the max before noticing any wear issues ?

i dont think so..Ill be doing it in a couple of hours, ill see at what the max factory spec is and go to there... ill report back..

[DriveHard]

Well, it seems the max spec's for my car with sport suspension are:

Im using the max settings, as alot of people want to know how far they can go without inducing tire wear. I am assuming here that BMW set there max limits to accomplish this. Hence my statement of "keeping it in the green"

Front Camber max negative allowable ( keeping it in the green) is -.8*

I was able to get -.55* with the pins pulled ( actually punched in my case )

Rear Camber max Negative allowable ( keeping it in the green ) is -1.35*

I set the rear at -1.408, as i fiddled way to much with the rear and was chasing my tail trying to get them equal. LOL

toe was set front and rear to dead on spec .07' (minutes) rear and .09' (minutes) rear . about and 1/8 of in inch per side if i am not mistaken.

Im taking it to Summit Point next weekend, I am using my square set up of 225/45/17's on 7.5 wheels Hankook RS3's so ill see how the underster works it self out. outside front shoulder tire temp was higher then i would have liked last time i went. about 30deg hotter on the outside due to the lack of camber. I hope that it is some what better after these tweaks...

For reference, i used the Latest available Hunter machine loaded with the latest BMW KDS specs..

[130i-ftw]

Thanks for the feedback

[SiN55]

Yep, thanks man!

[DriveHard]

Well, Summit point was alot of fun.. ran my fastes time of 1:34+

First, as most tracks we turn right more than left ( counter clockwise ) so the left tires seem to take the biggest beating.

The tire temp difference on the lefts went down about 10 degrees... so that was a good improvement. The rights, suprisingly were +/- 5degrees so that was great for them.

The car still understeared in the hairpins, but transitioned well in the quick Left / Right / Lefts of the Carousel..

Please keep in mind that my car is a lease, so i dont / cant do anything permenant ( ie slot the strut towers) or want to go thru the expense of coil overs / camber plates too much money $$$$$$

For next year i plan on putting in the e93 front sway bar..

so for a recap for those who are on a budget / have a lease the following steps helped alot..

a) pull pins in strut mounts and get as much neg camber possible ( see alignment spec in above post )

b) Get yourself dedicated track tires

c) install e93 m3 front sway bar

d) pay attention to left side tire pressures... temps will rise 4 to 5 psi from cold setting. I started at 36f / 34r. theses increased to 41f / 38r after my first run session, and i kept adjusting down from there.. I think the fronts could have taken a pound more, but i didnt do it as i was happy with the car.

e) in daily driving with the above alignment setting on my factory OEM RFTS, i noticed no adverse slow or high speed driving issues. It is too early to see if there will be adverse wear, but considering that the specs are very close to the max limit BMW speced, i forsee no big issue with wear..


YMMV, but this is what i got... Hopefully this will answer peoples questions.

Regards...

p.s. I also plan to add BMS power box... this will help with the throttle response exiting the tighter turns and getting me down the short straights faster so i can use my BMW perf. Brakes to whoa me down deeper into the corner and pick up a few tenths every corner / lap..