Installed 335i brakes on 128i

chris82 · 06-18-2015, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

what's your source?

No personal experience here, but a friend I go to the track with runs his 335i on slicks in the advanced group. It's all stock except for the pads and fluid. After 30+ events on this 335i, he's never had to replace anything other than rotors.

highbrowed · 06-18-2015, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris82

No personal experience here, but a friend I go to the track with runs his 335i on slicks in the advanced group. It's all stock except for the pads and fluid. After 30+ events on this 335i, he's never had to replace anything other than rotors.

.

I would like to see conclusive scientific evidence that the 135i brakes are inferior to the 335i. Just because your friend hasn't had caliper failures as of yet isn't scientific enough to prove either case. I have a friend who tracks his 135i weekly and hasn't had any caliper issues as well.

Sorry for the OT OP, good job on the upgrade.

chris82 · 06-18-2015, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

.

I would like to see conclusive scientific evidence that the 135i brakes are inferior to the 335i. Just because your friend hasn't had caliper failures as of yet isn't scientific enough to prove either case. I have a friend who tracks his 135i weekly and hasn't had any caliper issues as well.

Sorry for the OT OP, good job on the upgrade.

The 135i piston seal issue seems frequent enough to warrant an upgrade if you're going to the track a lot, there are plenty of documented cases of it.

The 335i doesn't have those issues, the rotors are bigger and thicker, and the 335i is a heavier car so the brakes are going through a little more than the lighter 135i and I still haven't heard of issues. Of course I don't have the resources to provide any 'scientific evidence' per se, but until I start seeing reports of issues resulting from track use, I'll stick with my original post that the 335i brakes are better. Come to think of it I should have just said this post vs. the "my friend doesn't have issues" post lol

Suprgnat · 06-18-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

.

I would like to see conclusive scientific evidence that the 135i brakes are inferior to the 335i. Just because your friend hasn't had caliper failures as of yet isn't scientific enough to prove either case. I have a friend who tracks his 135i weekly and hasn't had any caliper issues as well.

Sorry for the OT OP, good job on the upgrade.

My response would be: "If the 6 pot Brembos are superior to the 335i brakes, why doesn't BMW offer them as an option for the 335i like they do for the lesser 3-series cars?"

brocklanders · 06-19-2015, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris82

No personal experience here, but a friend I go to the track with runs his 335i on slicks in the advanced group. It's all stock except for the pads and fluid. After 30+ events on this 335i, he's never had to replace anything other than rotors.

.

I would like to see conclusive scientific evidence that the 135i brakes are inferior to the 335i. Just because your friend hasn't had caliper failures as of yet isn't scientific enough to prove either case. I have a friend who tracks his 135i weekly and hasn't had any caliper issues as well.

Sorry for the OT OP, good job on the upgrade.

shut up, 335 has larger rotors end of story, the six piston bullshit is a fad for the teenagers.

Solo_M_Tech · 06-19-2015, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brocklanders

shut up, 335 has larger rotors end of story, the six piston bullshit is a fad for the teenagers.

It's not actually a fad... There is a reason that every serious factory performance car comes with 6 piston fixed calipers.

The 135i is held back by the rotor size, and because of this, the 335i brakes are prefered.

andrey_gta · 06-19-2015, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

what's your source?

This has been discussed in the sticky at the top of this page & even the e90post.
basically 335i calipers never experienced the crumbling pistons that 135i calipers have. Also the single large piston of 335i and the brake pad size form a larger contact patch than 135i calipers & pads. This helps with heat and i think the 335i surface area of the piston is larger than 135i's.

highbrowed · 06-19-2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brocklanders

shut up, 335 has larger rotors end of story, the six piston bullshit is a fad for the teenagers.

You are so eloquent. (sarcasm)

Was posing a legitimate question in search of a conclusive answer, no need to troll. Keep your useless thoughts to yourself.

raposka · 06-20-2015, 07:53 AM

I think that everyone has made good points, on both sides of the debate. As I had said much earlier in response to the question of whether or not the Brembos from the 135i are not superior, it is debatable. To say that one or the other is better includes some subjective factors as well, i.e. the aesthetics.

Personally, I do think the "Performance" Brembos look much better, and I suspect this is the major reason they were included with the 135i. Whether gray or yellow, the 6-piston calipers just look nice. And, while it is true that I would expect to see 6-piston Brembos on most race cars, one must acknowledge that the calipers we are discussing are not the same 6-piston calipers you will find on a Porsche GT3. Brocklanders is correct, they are in some ways a fad, because they are "more show than go" (or should I say, "more show than stop"?), at least as they are configured from BMW.

In terms of braking performance, not on a single stop, but repeatedly, there is no substitute for the amount of iron you have in the rotor to absorb the heat. Essentially, brakes are turning the kinetic energy into heat energy, and if you do this again and again, you need a place to store the heat. Iron is very effective at storing the excess heat. Larger rotors are larger heat-sinks.

Yes, more pistons are desirable for evening out the clamping force, but the compromise on the 135i Brembo pistons is that they are composite ceramic, and they do not hold up well at the limit. This is why places like Turner Motorsports sell upgrade steel pistons for these calipers.

All of this is really just scratching the surface of the complexity of braking dynamics, and I am not really an expert in this subject.

I would have gone with the Performance brakes myself. However, this was a cheaper (and arguably better) alternative. In the end, I am happy with the look of larger rotors and it was a fun project. The calipers only cost me a total of $200 from Ebay (front and back), and it was fun to rebuild them and paint them.

In total, with new rotors up front, braided brake lines, brass bushings, new seals and dust jackets, and paint, I figure I paid roughly $600. That is the cost of new stainless steel pistons for the the Brembos and 1/4 the cost of the "Performance" brake kit. Plus, I had more fun, and isn't that the real reason we all fool around with our cars?

Solo_M_Tech · 06-20-2015, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raposka

I think that everyone has made good points, on both sides of the debate. As I had said much earlier in response to the question of whether or not the Brembos from the 135i are not superior, it is debatable. To say that one or the other is better includes some subjective factors as well, i.e. the aesthetics.

Personally, I do think the "Performance" Brembos look much better, and I suspect this is the major reason they were included with the 135i. Whether gray or yellow, the 6-piston calipers just look nice. And, while it is true that I would expect to see 6-piston Brembos on most race cars, one must acknowledge that the calipers we are discussing are not the same 6-piston calipers you will find on a Porsche GT3. Brocklanders is correct, they are in some ways a fad, because they are "more show than go" (or should I say, "more show than stop"?), at least as they are configured from BMW.

In terms of braking performance, not on a single stop, but repeatedly, there is no substitute for the amount of iron you have in the rotor to absorb the heat. Essentially, brakes are turning the kinetic energy into heat energy, and if you do this again and again, you need a place to store the heat. Iron is very effective at storing the excess heat. Larger rotors are larger heat-sinks.

Yes, more pistons are desirable for evening out the clamping force, but the compromise on the 135i Brembo pistons is that they are composite ceramic, and they do not hold up well at the limit. This is why places like Turner Motorsports sell upgrade steel pistons for these calipers.

All of this is really just scratching the surface of the complexity of braking dynamics, and I am not really an expert in this subject.

I would have gone with the Performance brakes myself. However, this was a cheaper (and arguably better) alternative. In the end, I am happy with the look of larger rotors and it was a fun project. The calipers only cost me a total of $200 from Ebay (front and back), and it was fun to rebuild them and paint them.

In total, with new rotors up front, braided brake lines, brass bushings, new seals and dust jackets, and paint, I figure I paid roughly $600. That is the cost of new stainless steel pistons for the the Brembos and 1/4 the cost of the "Performance" brake kit. Plus, I had more fun, and isn't that the real reason we all fool around with our cars?

It would be nice if there was a way to run a thicker rotor with the stock brembo calipers. They have their issues, but the rotor is the weakest link.

FactorX81 · 06-20-2015, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

It would be nice if there was a way to run a thicker rotor with the stock brembo calipers. They have their issues, but the rotor is the weakest link.

There is: http://www.racingbrake.com/Two-piece...g-p/2232-k.htm

But you are going to have to pay.

Solo_M_Tech · 06-20-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FactorX81

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

It would be nice if there was a way to run a thicker rotor with the stock brembo calipers. They have their issues, but the rotor is the weakest link.

There is: http://www.racingbrake.com/Two-piece...g-p/2232-k.htm

But you are going to have to pay.

Holy screw that. If rather spend a little more and just get a stop tech kit or something. Hahaha.

FactorX81 · 06-20-2015, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

Holy screw that. If rather spend a little more and just get a stop tech kit or something. Hahaha.

BBKs are generally a lot more like 2x,3x but I get what you are saying.

Bimmer-Bob · 06-20-2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raposka

Yes, they are great looking wheels. I really like the BMW Style 216 as well. That is what I originally wanted to put on my car, but the Aero 7s were way lighter and offered the perfect offset for the 1 series - since it was designed primarily for our vehicle.

I'm surprised to hear of your experience with the APEX wheels. When I first had my 17" ARC-8's mounted and balanced, a couple of them took NO wheel weights to balance!

I just ordered a set of AERO-7's for use as a street wheel. They remind me of my old Style 216's, which I also loved. But as you said, the AERO-7's are a lot lighter, and the fact that they were designed from the ground up as a 1er fitment sealed the deal. And I guess my very positive experience thus far with my ARC-8's.

raposka · 06-20-2015, 06:18 PM

The Aero-7s really are beautiful, and I do stop to admire them every time I walk up to my car. For the money, it is difficult for me to complain too much.

I am just very particular about my wheel balance, which is why I have my own tire machine and dynamic balancer. I learned nearly 23 years ago, when I worked at a garage in high school, that "close enough" is the modus operandi at most shops. I like to take the time to see my wheels "zeroed out" before I put them on my car.

I like to run the wheel on the balancer first, before I mount the tires, to see if there are heavy spots. I mark them so I can adjust the tire accordingly to minimize the weights I use. I love when I get a wheel/tire zeroed out with zero weights!

I really debated between the BMW Style 216s, BBS CK, and the Aero-7. I was very hesitant about the Apex wheels, because they are made in China. In the end, I was motivated by the great looks, the low weight, and the fact that they were made for the 1 series specifically. Plus, I bought them on Black Friday last year for $800, shipping included! I still think they look the best!

Tchao · 06-21-2015, 01:12 PM

How is the pedal feel after this brake swap?

I feel the 128i brakes are over-assisted and want a firmer pedal feel. Theoretically going to a larger piston front and rear should increase leverage of the pedal, making it further "assisted" so Im curious if thats the case?

raposka · 06-22-2015, 07:15 AM

Hello, Tschao. I agree with you about the pedal feel, but I honestly have not noticed any measurable difference in pedal feel since doing the conversion. Besides, it is very subjective.

The pistons are larger (+3mm front and +2mm rear, I believe), which translates to roughly a 10% increase in area on both. Theoretically, that means you need to push the pedal further to move the piston the same distance, filling the larger volume of the brake cylinder.

I introduced some other factors, however, with the new brake lines and brass bushings. Do these have an effect on pedal feel? I also added new brake pads, which needed to be bedded. And, I had a hell of a time getting all of the air out of the system. I actually plan to bleed them one more time, for good measure, as the pads seem to be fully bedded now.

I wish I had a better answer to your question, but I can say this: stopping power is significantly better and I can still heel-toe shift. So, I think the pedal feel is alright.

TheSt|G · 06-22-2015, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highbrowed

You are so eloquent. (sarcasm)

Was posing a legitimate question in search of a conclusive answer, no need to troll. Keep your useless thoughts to yourself.

He's not wrong though. The 135i brakes are just blingy junk. There is a reason the M3 uses a setup much more like the 335i.

Solo_M_Tech · 06-22-2015, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

He's not wrong though. The 135i brakes are just blingy junk. There is a reason the M3 uses a setup much more like the 335i.

I see alot of E36 and E46 race cars built with the "blingy Junk" 135i calipers here in germany. They must not be as bad as everyone thinks. Alot of race teams use them. They are a cheap and easy to find, and are an upgrade for the E46 and E36 cars.

TheSt|G · 06-22-2015, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

I see alot of E36 and E46 race cars built with the "blingy Junk" 135i calipers here in germany. They must not be as bad as everyone thinks. Alot of race teams use them. They are a cheap and easy to find, and are an upgrade for the E46 and E36 cars.

Wouldn't ever put that garbage on my E36 or E46. Even if they were nice brakes(they aren't), I highly doubt the bias is in any way correct for the application.

andrey_gta · 06-22-2015, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexResistance

It would be nice if there was a way to run a thicker rotor with the stock brembo calipers. They have their issues, but the rotor is the weakest link.

The f20/f30 340x30 rotor may fit - it is centered correctly.
The current rotor is 338x26 and Diesel mod e46M CSL rotor is 28mm wide an has no issues.

asbrr · 06-23-2015, 08:57 AM

Question for the OP or anyone else - what effect would the 335 / 328 caliper combo done here have on brake bias? Is it safe to assume if the total volume ratios between the front and rear pistons matches the ratio between the stock 128i front and rear pistons the bias remains the same?

This is always something that bothered me about swapping out calipers. I don't hear how anyone deals with proportioning / brake bias, or is it just not significant enough to worry about?

BBK kit manufacturers like Stoptech spend R&D time to ensure they get the bias right, so it should apply generally no?

06-20-2015, 07:53 AM	#31
raposka Enlisted Member 16 Rep 38 Posts Drives: 2009 128i, 6MT, LSD, DISA Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Chassell, MI iTrader: (0)	I think that everyone has made good points, on both sides of the debate. As I had said much earlier in response to the question of whether or not the Brembos from the 135i are not superior, it is debatable. To say that one or the other is better includes some subjective factors as well, i.e. the aesthetics. Personally, I do think the "Performance" Brembos look much better, and I suspect this is the major reason they were included with the 135i. Whether gray or yellow, the 6-piston calipers just look nice. And, while it is true that I would expect to see 6-piston Brembos on most race cars, one must acknowledge that the calipers we are discussing are not the same 6-piston calipers you will find on a Porsche GT3. Brocklanders is correct, they are in some ways a fad, because they are "more show than go" (or should I say, "more show than stop"?), at least as they are configured from BMW. In terms of braking performance, not on a single stop, but repeatedly, there is no substitute for the amount of iron you have in the rotor to absorb the heat. Essentially, brakes are turning the kinetic energy into heat energy, and if you do this again and again, you need a place to store the heat. Iron is very effective at storing the excess heat. Larger rotors are larger heat-sinks. Yes, more pistons are desirable for evening out the clamping force, but the compromise on the 135i Brembo pistons is that they are composite ceramic, and they do not hold up well at the limit. This is why places like Turner Motorsports sell upgrade steel pistons for these calipers. All of this is really just scratching the surface of the complexity of braking dynamics, and I am not really an expert in this subject. I would have gone with the Performance brakes myself. However, this was a cheaper (and arguably better) alternative. In the end, I am happy with the look of larger rotors and it was a fun project. The calipers only cost me a total of $200 from Ebay (front and back), and it was fun to rebuild them and paint them. In total, with new rotors up front, braided brake lines, brass bushings, new seals and dust jackets, and paint, I figure I paid roughly $600. That is the cost of new stainless steel pistons for the the Brembos and 1/4 the cost of the "Performance" brake kit. Plus, I had more fun, and isn't that the real reason we all fool around with our cars?
	Appreciate 3 John_01232.00 Quote

06-20-2015, 06:18 PM	#37
raposka Enlisted Member 16 Rep 38 Posts Drives: 2009 128i, 6MT, LSD, DISA Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Chassell, MI iTrader: (0)	The Aero-7s really are beautiful, and I do stop to admire them every time I walk up to my car. For the money, it is difficult for me to complain too much. I am just very particular about my wheel balance, which is why I have my own tire machine and dynamic balancer. I learned nearly 23 years ago, when I worked at a garage in high school, that "close enough" is the modus operandi at most shops. I like to take the time to see my wheels "zeroed out" before I put them on my car. I like to run the wheel on the balancer first, before I mount the tires, to see if there are heavy spots. I mark them so I can adjust the tire accordingly to minimize the weights I use. I love when I get a wheel/tire zeroed out with zero weights! I really debated between the BMW Style 216s, BBS CK, and the Aero-7. I was very hesitant about the Apex wheels, because they are made in China. In the end, I was motivated by the great looks, the low weight, and the fact that they were made for the 1 series specifically. Plus, I bought them on Black Friday last year for $800, shipping included! I still think they look the best!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-21-2015, 01:12 PM	#38
Tchao Boost Addict 334 Rep 349 Posts Drives: E30, E82, F30, F87 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Charleston iTrader: (0)	How is the pedal feel after this brake swap? I feel the 128i brakes are over-assisted and want a firmer pedal feel. Theoretically going to a larger piston front and rear should increase leverage of the pedal, making it further "assisted" so Im curious if thats the case?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-22-2015, 07:15 AM	#39
raposka Enlisted Member 16 Rep 38 Posts Drives: 2009 128i, 6MT, LSD, DISA Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Chassell, MI iTrader: (0)	Hello, Tschao. I agree with you about the pedal feel, but I honestly have not noticed any measurable difference in pedal feel since doing the conversion. Besides, it is very subjective. The pistons are larger (+3mm front and +2mm rear, I believe), which translates to roughly a 10% increase in area on both. Theoretically, that means you need to push the pedal further to move the piston the same distance, filling the larger volume of the brake cylinder. I introduced some other factors, however, with the new brake lines and brass bushings. Do these have an effect on pedal feel? I also added new brake pads, which needed to be bedded. And, I had a hell of a time getting all of the air out of the system. I actually plan to bleed them one more time, for good measure, as the pads seem to be fully bedded now. I wish I had a better answer to your question, but I can say this: stopping power is significantly better and I can still heel-toe shift. So, I think the pedal feel is alright.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-23-2015, 08:57 AM	#44
asbrr Major 542 Rep 1,233 Posts Drives: 2014 335ix M-Sport Join Date: May 2015 Location: Toronto iTrader: (1)	Question for the OP or anyone else - what effect would the 335 / 328 caliper combo done here have on brake bias? Is it safe to assume if the total volume ratios between the front and rear pistons matches the ratio between the stock 128i front and rear pistons the bias remains the same? This is always something that bothered me about swapping out calipers. I don't hear how anyone deals with proportioning / brake bias, or is it just not significant enough to worry about? BBK kit manufacturers like Stoptech spend R&D time to ensure they get the bias right, so it should apply generally no?
	Appreciate 0 Quote