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      09-06-2011, 04:09 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
He is saying that under steady cornering and turn-in, the car is understeering. He is saying that even under trail braking, he still found understeer.

(...) Does this make any sense to you?
I don't know any fast street legal car that doesn't understeers first when the tires traction starts to drop off under mild acceleration in a steady cornering state.

Also, the M limited slip differential induces initial understeer.

What I find VERY hard to believe is a car with such a short wheel base that doesn't turn-in under hard trail braking - the car will rotate just fine and help the front end follow the path of the curve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Apparently, it does have quite a lot of power oversteer, which is not the same as negating the above.
When you step on the gas pedal you can counteract the initial understeer reaction with power oversteer as long as you keep the engine in the right power band for a seamless transition from understeer to oversteer, which on the 1M would mean 5000-7000rpm.

Just look at what happens when there's not enough power available to break the rear tires traction in a Cayman:

Cayman vs Evora

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 09-06-2011 at 04:16 PM..
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      09-06-2011, 04:26 PM   #112
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The 1M is not a car to be driven with 'fingertips' like Randy Pobst likes...

You have to drive it hard!
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      09-06-2011, 05:26 PM   #113
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I may not be an expert, nor do I give the tiniest shit what that dork thinks, but pay close attention to corner one, I have driven harder into driveways than that. If that *** knew, and I mean REALLY knew, and wanted to he could have easily shaved an additional half a second, if not more since it would have put him in a better position to pull through corner three and late break the following corner.

Pure example that too many Americans are brainwashed by Detroit.

Stock for stock, no r compound tires and the mustang would not surpass the 1M. I'm not a hater, just the simple truth that hurts most times.

Just my two sense.
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      09-06-2011, 06:00 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
I don't know any fast street legal car that doesn't understeers first when the tires traction starts to drop off under mild acceleration in a steady cornering state.
There is no mild acceleration in a steady cornering state. And the guy found understeer also under trail braking.

Quote:
What I find VERY hard to believe is a car with such a short wheel base that doesn't turn-in under hard trail braking - the car will rotate just fine and help the front end follow the path of the curve.
All the stock BMW's I've tracked so far (not a huge number, but all the generations back to the E36) have understeered in steady cornering. Blame it on the staggered tire setup, suspension calibrations, whatever you want.

This never needs to be taken on faith however, just get your 1M on a track and drive the snot out of it, see which way it goes.
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      09-07-2011, 04:59 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
There is no mild acceleration in a steady cornering state.
In that case, understeer cannot exist in a steady cornering state... since it's a steady state!

If you understeer in a constant radius corner (steady state cornering = constant radius corner) either you carried too much speed into the corner to start with or you are accelerating too much or too soon while inside the corner. Otherwise, there is no understeer (or oversteer for that matter) in a steady cornering state.

What you can say is: I cannot carry as much speed as with other cars into that particular corner because if I do, I will get understeer in mid-corner even without accelerating. Or, I cannot accelerating as soon, or as hard, as with other cars in that particular corner because I will upset the balance of the car and will end-up with too much understeer. Either way it is NOT steady state cornering!

Ultimately, it's the clock that will tell you if you are not being as fast as with other cars... being slower on the clock in a circuit than a Cayman R PDK or an Evora S, which are lighter and lower for roughly the same length and power, it's absolutely normal. Saying that the 1M isn't a fast car in today's world it only can be a joke!

Also, that the guy can say it is easier to pick the right entering speed in a corner with the Cayman R or the Evora S it would come with no surprise to me because those cars were built to be MUCH more track oriented. That's the reason why they are so compromised for street use.

Did the guy drive the 1M to it's maximum potential?! I don't think so... 'The shifter is slick, and light. I really enjoy that. You gotta do it just with your fingertips. If you try to muscle it with a fist, you're gonna get the wrong gear'... Give me a break !!!


I think we can leave the Mustang Boss 302 with R compoud tires out of this... we are not evaluating tire performance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
And the guy found understeer also under trail braking.
The guy found a LOT of things that others didn't... that's precisely the point. Maybe he is a super-man driving only with the 'fingertips'!

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 09-07-2011 at 09:16 AM..
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      09-07-2011, 08:40 AM   #116
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[QUOTE=robertm;10345121]I'm wondering if he was driving with the traction control on? I mean with the TC fully off it shouldn't be to hard to induce a bit of trailing throttle oversteer or just power oversteer.

I do sort of think he's not basing the review of this car on an even playing field. Compared to any full blown race car the stock 1M will not be able to live up on track from an enjoyment standpoint.

As for not being very fast, compared to -most anything- with 500 hp yah, its probably not going to be as fast.

His comment about it not being fun like the original e30m3 is kind of a joke too. I can basically guarantee you he's never driven a stock e30m3. If he had he would have thought the brakes fade way to fast, it doesn't have enough tire, it rolls over way too much and 2nd to 3rd shift sux (US tranny). What he has driven is a car with better suspension, better pads, wider and probably stickier tires, possibly a dog leg tranny and almost certainly chipped at the very least. Do any of that to the 1M and it too will be transformed.

I guess what I'm saying is that even the vaulted e30m3 isn't that great on track out of the box for someone with Pobst's track experience. Honestly, almost no street cars are. I'm not sure he actually compared the 1m to the laguna seca
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      09-07-2011, 09:17 AM   #117
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As I posted in another thread, I found that the "cornering brake control" -- which can not be turned off -- interfered with using the brakes to rotate the car.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578573

And another thread on same http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1705775

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      09-07-2011, 12:49 PM   #118
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First let me say, my 1M is a great car. It is the perfect daily driver for me. Now let the flames begin. On a tight, slow course, I've experienced a similar reluctance to turn or push especially under heavy braking and the power is off.

Does it mean it is a poor handling car? No...I need to find a new tequenic for negotiating that type of turn. I think Randy needs to spend a little more time with the car.

For me, it is not a lot of torque, so it us pretty easy to control the power delivery
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      09-07-2011, 01:04 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
...just get your 1M on a track and drive the snot out of it, see which way it goes.
More importantly, get your 1M on the track, and see how much you care about *any* reviews.

Took my 135i to the track this weekend, and had a blast. Kept up with everything out there. You know who wasn't even there? Randy Pobst. You know how many times other drivers mentioned his (or any) review, when talking to me about my car? None.

At a minimum, take a break for some football. Life is too short.
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      09-09-2011, 04:16 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
As I posted in another thread, I found that the "cornering brake control" -- which can not be turned off -- interfered with using the brakes to rotate the car.
Are you the only one experiencing that or is there anyone else with similar experience?

All the safety features are designed to work together to help stabilize the car, which is the opposite of making it slide as you describe. Did you actually feel the ABS pushing back on the pedal?

The M3 (E92) also has the CBC (Cornering Brake Control) feature, the same variable M differential and yet M3's owners don't have any problems at all with trail braking and the DSC OFF.

Why do you say that the "cornering brake control" can not be turned off? Are you making any downshifts while entering the corner? Are you rev matching when you down shift (heel and toe)?

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 09-09-2011 at 11:59 AM..
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      09-09-2011, 04:51 AM   #121
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The brakes on the 1M is more biased to the rear.

I was tuesday on a wet track with my 1M. When you hit the brakes the rear locks up faster then the front. But then again i find it fun i can brake for a corner and the car already goes a little bit sideways with all dsc stuff off.

With a few tweaks you can make a very very nice track day car of a 1M. The only concern that i have is the heat soak from the turbo engine. But if that s not a prolem this car rocks.
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      09-09-2011, 06:42 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
The brakes on the 1M is more biased to the rear.

I was tuesday on a wet track with my 1M. When you hit the brakes the rear locks up faster then the front. But then again i find it fun i can brake for a corner and the car already goes a little bit sideways with all dsc stuff off.
Andre,

That's what I'm sayin'... how come what you are describing translates to understeer?!

What you describe is exactly the same thing as trail braking... why are Randy Pobst and others saying that they are not able to do it?

Andre, can you make a video showing these guys how to do it?
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      09-09-2011, 07:11 AM   #123
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Video s will come. Promise.
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      09-09-2011, 08:01 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
If they loved the 1M bet you would have a different opinion.
Actually no.

I find the journalistic style and content of Motor Trend to be at least 25 years too out-of-date for me (and I'm in my 30's!). Also, as Pobst (and his colleagues) demonstrate over and over, having some professional driving skills does not mean you understand the first thing about making a clear and compelling rhetorical argument.

If you want to read well written, thoughtfully researched, relatively unbiased auto journalism, you need to look to the British magazines (specifically EVO and TopGear IMO).

Interestingly, I find the same to be true when it comes to professional/semi-professional photography magazines.
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      11-20-2011, 09:52 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
He is saying that under steady cornering and turn-in, the car is understeering. He is saying that even under trail braking, he still found understeer.

Apparently, it does have quite a lot of power oversteer, which is not the same as negating the above. Does this make any sense to you? It does to me...


BTW the M3 understeers too at the track on turn-in, and again you can induce power oversteer but perhaps not as easily as in the 1M. I'll be experimenting with a square tire setup next.

Edit: And where are all the DC area 1M owners? I wanted to try one so bad, to decide if I should order one or not... too late now of course...
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
There is no mild acceleration in a steady cornering state. And the guy found understeer also under trail braking.



All the stock BMW's I've tracked so far (not a huge number, but all the generations back to the E36) have understeered in steady cornering. Blame it on the staggered tire setup, suspension calibrations, whatever you want.

This never needs to be taken on faith however, just get your 1M on a track and drive the snot out of it, see which way it goes.
Thanks for posting this, I was about to do the same after reading the first few pages.

GoingTooFast might not understand that there's more to a car's cornering behavior than a throttle-adjustable attitude.

Anything on four tires will understeer when it carries too much speed into a corner, but it's the degree of understeer and adjustability that differs from car to car. Even with a relatively square footprint, the 1M's weight balance, staggered setup, and suspension tuning could all very well lead to a higher degree of understeer than people might find on a public road as opposed to a track (hence the differing opinions of Pobst's compared to other journalists' that drove the car on the street).

@GoingTooFast: power-on oversteer is separate from determining a car's steady-state cornering attitude. Just because it's easy to get the back loose with throttle does not mean it's a cure-all for understeer. The front might scrub wide before the limits on all four contact patches are met; reducing power, and in some cases, trail-braking, to adjust the weight balance are used to tuck the nose in by loading the tires differently. Maybe the 1M isn't so responsive to these actions.

In the end, I highly doubt Pobst is being biased and exerting any higher levels of criticism towards the 1M than compared to the other contenders.
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      11-20-2011, 09:56 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b33g33 View Post
Actually no.

I find the journalistic style and content of Motor Trend to be at least 25 years too out-of-date for me (and I'm in my 30's!). Also, as Pobst (and his colleagues) demonstrate over and over, having some professional driving skills does not mean you understand the first thing about making a clear and compelling rhetorical argument.

If you want to read well written, thoughtfully researched, relatively unbiased auto journalism, you need to look to the British magazines (specifically EVO and TopGear IMO).

Interestingly, I find the same to be true when it comes to professional/semi-professional photography magazines.
TopGear mag is subpar from a roadtest point of view, imo. EVO is tops, and CAR is a brilliant magazine too.
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