BMW M1 to be unleashed by M division! (OFFICIAL confirmation from M boss)

[cap_freez]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

so you are Ok with paying a $13,000 premium over a base 135i for: 50hp, LSD, wider fenders, suspension? ($10,000 over the power package which leaves you with 24hp difference)


I see the jist of your point and agree, but I'll be damned if I'm paying $50k for that, when $5k more buys me a full blown M3 sedan.

Well the way I see it, if you were to Mod the car to get the result how much would it cost?

set of front + rear brembo brakes = around 5000
Dinan Stage 1 = 1700
Aerodynamic kit painted = 3000
Other stuff = ????
suspension = ????

so right there you have a minimum of about 10 000 $ of mods that keep your warranty. so for me 10 000$ over a stock 135 would be ok. of course 15 000 starts to be a bit much, but if it's not over 10k I'm good.

I know there are cheaper ways to get hp boost and such but I'm talking about a stock car under warranty here. But on the other hand you make a good point... if it gets too close to the M3 in price, well there is no reason not to get the M3 instead.

[ssabripo]

the whole discussion on "modding" a car is apples and oranges... once you mod a car, we can no longer talk out of factory performance and warranty. But let me amuse you for a sec:

Originally Posted by rockrboy

Well the way I see it, if you were to Mod the car to get the result how much would it cost?

set of front + rear brembo brakes = no need...good set of pads ($300)
JB3 = $500
Aerodynamic kit painted = irrelevant. (this can vary and is not in the equation)
LSD = $3000
suspension = $1500 KW V2 coilover suspension

^ fixed for you ^

Originally Posted by rockrboy

so right there you have a minimum of about 10 000 $ of mods that keep your warranty. so for me 10 000$ over a stock 135 would be ok. of course 15 000 starts to be a bit much, but if it's not over 10k I'm good.

so we are talking a grand total of ~6000 that can potentially be faster around the track than the 350hp M1, and more potentially more balanced. If you start with a base 135i ($37k) and add the performance package ($3k), and add the the above, you are still around $46000 or so for a car that will have 400hp crank, LSD, better suspension than the M suspension, etc.

but again, we are comparing apples to oranges once you start modding.

Originally Posted by rockrboy

But on the other hand you make a good point... if it gets too close to the M3 in price, well there is no reason not to get the M3 instead.

that's my entire point... if BMW is planning on bringing the 1M at 350hp, as "balanced" and whatever other accolade you wanna use, if the price is going to be $50k or so, it will be a massive failure. The full blown M3, a staple and legend for BMW, is a measly $5k more and looks better, has more power, can seat more people easier, and has a better chassis than the e82.

if they bring it in at 350hp, I can't see its price being more than $46k, if that.

But put it at 380hp, keep the weight similar if possible, add the suspension, LSD, and wider fenders/offsets, and $50k will be a good viable solution.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by rockrboy

Honestly I don't understand why people need more than 350 HP, especially on such a small car.

IMHO what makes the biggest difference is torque and the way it is distributed, handling and brakes. I'm not really interested in driving above 80mph anyway so what matters to me is acceleration and cornering, to have fun on those twisties!!!!

I used to own a 1998 M roadster and that car had no DSC. it was real easy to get the rear tires to slide and acceleration was really impressive, at least from a feeling. And it was a NA 240 hp engine. But man it was fun. it was a bit of a pitbull and it did try to bite me on several occasions where I was over confident. But you could pass someone in fifth at 80mph and it would never feel out of breath.

The fact is we are brainwashed by marketing into thinking more HP equals more speed. The truth is i'd say at least 80% of the time, performance is dependant on torque, dynamics and weight. Unless all you do is drag race of course, but then why would you buy an M car to do that? A guy I know races an old 2002 on the track and beats amateurs with their brand new 911's.

My wishlist for the M1 would be that they make the car more stable and increase significantly acceleration. Better brakes of course and make it in melbourne red!!!!

Someone silence this man... he makes too much sense.

345 HP is net. To some they don't see it that way and get fixated on the HP and not necessarily understand the deltas, or even consider the torque factor. Let-alone balance, wider track, larger tires (more usable horsepower), refinement, etc..

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

345 HP is net. To some they don't see it that way and get fixated on the HP and not necessarily understand the deltas, or even consider the torque factor. Let-alone balance, wider track, larger tires (more usable horsepower), refinement, etc..

yes, I don't understand any of that... I've never owned an M car or take my car to the track. You got me all pinned

I guess the old saying is true: you build it, fanboys will buy it.

to each their own. This thing comes in at 345hp with $50k pricetag, and I'll be shopping for the M3 or something else.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Someone silence this man... he makes too much sense.

345 HP is net. To some they don't see it that way and get fixated on the HP and not necessarily understand the deltas, or even consider the torque factor. Let-alone balance, wider track, larger tires (more usable horsepower), refinement, etc..

Torque doesn't make cars fast, HP does. If torque were the deciding factor, diesel trucks would outrun F1 cars. HP is a measure of an engine ability to produce torque at speed, and that's what creates accelleration.

Having a car with a nice broad torque curve makes it nice to drive around town, but isn't indicative of overall performance.

[AlBel1214]

A driver saying they will never go over 80 and someone who wants an M car are oxymorons in my book...

[cap_freez]

why? I'll go over 80 if I'm on a track. But everyday driving... what's the point?

You don't need to be a wacko at the wheel to enjoy a good sports car, and to be a good driver.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Torque doesn't make cars fast, HP does. If torque were the deciding factor, diesel trucks would outrun F1 cars. HP is a measure of an engine ability to produce torque at speed, and that's what creates accelleration.

Having a car with a nice broad torque curve makes it nice to drive around town, but isn't indicative of overall performance.

you should be the one that is silenced...too much sense

[My135]

To me, a M package is more than hp & torque. It is a complete package with agressive body work, the M decals, improved suspension, more hp and torque and the prestige to go with it. If hp and torque is the only things that you look after, you may as well buy a base 135 and mod the hell out of it; but at the end of the day, it is still not a M1.

[Gogud]

All this talk of the amount of horsepower you need, can use, should be satisfied with, etc., is misguided....Look at horsepower like money-- can you really have too much of either?

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by bluejaypanther

Nurburgring Lap Times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times

E92 M3: 8:05
E46 M3: 8:22

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...a-hot-lap.html

Camaro SS: 8:20


Very nice, but I knew the "same time around nurburgring for $$$ less" sounded a bit fishy. The SS is comparable to the E46 M3, but those are... about the same price.

Bottom line, there's no way that $20K+ price gap between two cars that are built for performance first doesn't make a difference on the track. German, American, doesn't matter.

If someone has a source for the (stock) Camaro SS doing a better lap, I would love to see it. As it stands, it's a shade faster than the 135i, but a tier below the M3.

Is there a ring time for the M1 yet?

And as far as the new Mustang, the one that's been running around has a tire package that probably won't be on the actual "track package".
At Gingerman in Mich, the '11 Mustang ran "roughly" the same track time as the current M3, but this was not a production car.
Still, it bodes well for the new Rustang, 400/400 is nothing to sneeze at.
The current M3 has 414hp, but lacks that torque.
Still, I'm sure BMW isn't worried about what the Mustang is doing, and a new M3 is always in the works.

But, they might be concerned what the Mustang is doing when compared to the 1. Some people could make the switch.
Realistically, the Mustang that will run that hot won't be the general GT version. It will be a model with packages that will push the price higher.

The issue for me with the Mustang is how rough it is overall. Yes, it has a nice sounding V8 and very good to great power depending on version, but overall driving it doesn't leave you with the same refinement.
It's not just how fast you go, but how well you go fast, and that really does mean something to some of us.
There are Honda Acorns and Toyota Crapry's that have more HP in their V6's compared to a 328i, but so what? There is NO WAY I would pick one of those over a 328i.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Torque doesn't make cars fast, HP does. If torque were the deciding factor, diesel trucks would outrun F1 cars. HP is a measure of an engine ability to produce torque at speed, and that's what creates accelleration.

Having a car with a nice broad torque curve makes it nice to drive around town, but isn't indicative of overall performance.

Wow, I didn't expect a newbie comment like that from you. I'm disappointed.

Diesel race cars? Audi R10 anyone?

A diesel truck compared to an F1 race car? You're somehow trying to draw a comparison to 2 vehicles that are designed for completely different purposes.
You might as well compare why a sneaker is superior to a stilletto in every situation.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Gogud

All this talk of the amount of horsepower you need, can use, should be satisfied with, etc., is misguided....Look at horsepower like money-- can you really have too much of either?

Good point.

This thread has turned into people buying or not buying a car that isn't even available for purchase yet, with no concrete specs to correctly compare it with anything.

If the M1/1M doesn't have at least 500hp/500lb ft, offer a true manual trans, come with heated leather, no sunroof option, carbon fiber hood and top, a high end audio system with 2 large 12" subs, and all manner of electronic dodad sockets, along with MUCH lighter weight, and greatly improved MPG, along with included "comfort access", but have a track minded stripped interior, and have an MSRP of less than $45k, then BMW suck and don't deserve my hard earned money. I'll go and pay $20k less for a car that will probably, likely, possibly, might, should, hopefully, better be as fast or faster than BMW's piece of carp M1. I mean, how dare BMW release an M car that has numbers that I perceive as too low and expect me to pay what I perceive as too high? Obviously Ford has made the best, fastest, and most capable sport car in the new Mustang, and they've priced it exactly where it should be and haven't cut corners anywhere to achieve that price. Heck, why am I now driving a BMW and even considering getting another one, especially when I am afraid to drive the 1 I have now cause I might have a HPFP failure. Plus, we know that BMW build unreliable cars! Heck, even their manual trans can't hold up to hard, fast speed shifting, and it's a KNOWN problem cause a few others have had some grinding from a 1-2 shift as well.
BMW stands for Bowel Movement Wonder!

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

...when $5k more buys me a full blown M3 sedan.

Oddly, a full blown M3 doesn't excite me much.. but this M? I have to have it. It's a diminutive 2-door Monster!

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Torque doesn't make cars fast, HP does. If torque were the deciding factor, diesel trucks would outrun F1 cars. HP is a measure of an engine ability to produce torque at speed, and that's what creates accelleration.

Having a car with a nice broad torque curve makes it nice to drive around town, but isn't indicative of overall performance.

My friend, please don't lecture me on torque, I have considerable knowledge on the subject!


When standing back from a given car's specs, their whole powerband is important. Specifically torque, which directly reflects the cars acceleration rate. The deltas within a cars engine, matter! If a car has 350ft-lbs of torque, but doesn't get deeply into that, until later in the powerband, then it's somewhat moot. Because most often, peak isn't anything drivable, it's just a number.

Now, seeing that the new M1, would have peak torque @ 1,200rpm's, means it will gain maximum acceleration much quicker and MAINTAIN that rate throughout the powerband. With a force dictated by the HP curve. Torque accelerates the car, HP maintains that speed..



None of that^^ is deep. Basic, but many forget the importance of THE WHOLE ENGINE and not just one arbitrary figure (ie: 345hp).

[Advevo]

I am curious how long the turbo s stay in one piece on a real hot trackday. And what the the oil temps will be?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

My friend, please don't lecture me on torque, I have considerable knowledge on the subject!
).

I'm not your friend, and your posts make it obvious that you lack any real understanding of the concept at hand.

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

When standing back from a given car's specs, their whole powerband is important. Specifically torque, which directly reflects the cars acceleration rate. The deltas within a cars engine, matter! If a car has 350ft-lbs of torque, but doesn't get deeply into that, until later in the powerband, then it's somewhat moot. Because most often, peak isn't anything drivable, it's just a number.

Now, seeing that the new M1, would have peak torque @ 1,200rpm's, means it will gain maximum acceleration much quicker and MAINTAIN that rate throughout the powerband. With a force dictated by the HP curve. Torque accelerates the car, HP maintains that speed..



None of that^^ is deep. Basic, but many forget the importance of THE WHOLE ENGINE and not just one arbitrary figure (ie: 345hp).

You have no idea what the powerband on the M1 is going to look like, and your notions that Hp is maintaining speed is just absurd. I really don't feel like taking the time to educate you, so I'd suggest you do a little research on your own. You clearly don't have even a basic understanding of what information the two measurements are giving you.

[LeoHammer]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Obviously Ford has made the best, fastest, and most capable sport car in the new Mustang, and they've priced it exactly where it should be and haven't cut corners anywhere to achieve that price. Heck, why am I now driving a BMW and even considering getting another one, especially when I am afraid to drive the 1 I have now cause I might have a HPFP failure. Plus, we know that BMW build unreliable cars! Heck, even their manual trans can't hold up to hard, fast speed shifting, and it's a KNOWN problem cause a few others have had some grinding from a 1-2 shift as well.
BMW stands for Bowel Movement Wonder!

I have an '08 mustang GT and test drove a 2010 one recently, even though the new 5.0 will have lots of more power than either of those two and could take corners as fast as a BMW....the steering feel is shit(cutting corners for lower price?) which is why i always prefer my 135i.

Power isn't everything... It's a big part, but not everything.

[tylerh269]

OMF that is FRESSSHHHHH

[ARES45]

One question not yet asked is what do you think dinan could do with the engine M is going to put out with two twin-scroll turbos starting at a M3 face saving 345hp?
Discuss

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'm not your friend, and your posts make it obvious that you lack any real understanding of the concept at hand.

You have no idea what the powerband on the M1 is going to look like, and your notions that Hp is maintaining speed is just absurd. I really don't feel like taking the time to educate you, so I'd suggest you do a little research on your own. You clearly don't have even a basic understanding of what information the two measurements are giving you.

lulz.. u need to take a hit of teh bong bro.


Bros.. many here could accurately plot the powerband of an M1, (powered by a S55 bi-turbo). Basically anyone here that understands the underlying technology/engineering/principles/designs, could/would!!

Secondly, all this was hashed out dozens of times over the last 10 years. I've had a good many of posts referenced, as end-all statements, some sig'ed or quoted on many boards throughout the years. I simply don't have the stamina to argue with you. (I'm buying an M1, regardless.. ironically, for all the reasons everyone here has given, except yours.) But here is a clue... I no longer care what the actual static numbers are, I can envision what they represent instinctually (many people do) ... & after a while, you find ways to illustrate what they mean.! Laymanistic has it's place, uno?


Ironically, there is nothing you can rebuttal.. because exact numb3rs are one thing, how they relate to reality (ie tarmac) is another. So when discussing a concept such as torque, you cannot speak about it's single best moment, but it's entire effect it has on the output of the engine. The engine's powerband (or torque plot) is more important, than it's actual peak.

You keep denying that^^, & dodging that simple point. trolling r yee?


Numb3rs..?
I have them all... but this is a simple BMW //M1 discussion, I dislike thread-crapping like this... but torque is TQ, how it works is not the focus of THIS discussion. You keep fixating, or intentionally trying to get wrapped up in the specifics and making teh thread about you & whatever crusade your on.. I'm above your pettiness.

Lastly, I never said, that you said... the Mustang was going to be lighter. Ironically, it was you that got upset about how lightweight some if us suggested the new M1 was going to be. qq more plz



Brevity is usually my thing and Jeremy, you are ruining my weekend high. I'll not respond to you again. As I have dealt with your type many times over...





for everyone else: beautiful

[Smokey]

^ Nice pix-- I like the quads.