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      03-17-2009, 07:17 AM   #1
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Shell's Nitrogen Gas

So now Shell’s gas is “enriched” with Nitrogen that supposedly keeps your engine even cleaner. Anyone notice the difference yet?
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      03-17-2009, 07:26 AM   #2
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I guess you would have to take the engine apart to be able to tell. Maybe this weekend?
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      03-17-2009, 08:04 AM   #3
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What would be the better question is, "What the heck would nitrogen do to the gas to make it better?"

We know nitrogen is large particles. We know it doesn't get hot like air does. We know that if you store liquids in nitrogen, they don't break down as much, like with carbonated beverages.

But for gas, what is the gain? We hear that "detergents" are great in gas, but what are they? Yep, they are "sand" and they scrub your cylinder walls. Great, now I will eventually lose compression and burn oil.

I will certainly Google this, but since I am one of the few out there that HASN'T been laid off or received free govt cheese, I have to do my job during the day. So, anyone know this information offhand, please provide.
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      03-17-2009, 08:09 AM   #4
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My guess is it's something that has been in the gas for years, and it's just a new marketing campaign. Just a guess though.
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      03-17-2009, 08:20 AM   #5
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The mixture is fuel is Federally regulated, so it would shock me if they've made any significant change at all, especially one that's going to cost them money and force them to charge more for fuel to turn the same profit. Consumers just won't buy it.
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      03-17-2009, 08:22 AM   #6
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The air we breathe is enriched with nitrogen.

Quote:
SI B 36 04 06
Wheels and Tires April 2006
Technical Service

SUBJECT
Nitrogen Inflated Tires


MODEL
All


SITUATION
Many customers have inquired about the use of Nitrogen, instead of air, to inflate tires on their BMW vehicles. Please review the information below to help answer some of the customer's inquiries.

INFORMATION

Nitrogen, an inert gas, is nothing more than dry air with the Oxygen removed. The majority of "air" already consists of Nitrogen (78% by volume). The other elements of air by volume are 21% Oxygen and 1% other gases.

All BMW approved tires have been designed and tested to deliver their expected performance when inflated with "air" and the correct tire inflation pressure is maintained on a regular basis.

The use of Nitrogen to inflate tires is not recommended for normal use of BMW vehicles; however, the use of Nitrogen is also not prohibited.

There are certain applications where Nitrogen inflation is advisable, i.e. in abnormal environment where wheel and tire overheating may occur such as in aircrafts, space shuttles, military vehicles, off-road trucks, and race cars. In these applications, the non-flammable Nitrogen can reduce the risk of fire, because Nitrogen does not support combustion and does not add fuel to the fire.

The physical properties of Nitrogen may reduce the inflation pressure loss only from the tire material natural permeability (diffusion through rubber). However, similar to air, Nitrogen can still escape from other sources of inflation pressure loss such as from wheel, wheel/tire interface, valve, and valve/wheel interface.

The most important thing for the customers is to maintain the correct tire inflation pressure on a regular basis as recommended in the Owner's Manual. Under inflated tires can reduce road holding, increase hydroplaning risk, increase road hazards sensitivity, reduce tire life, increase fuel consumption, etc.

If equipped on the vehicle, always reinitialize the Flat Tire Monitor (FTM) or reset the Tire Pressure Monitor (TPM) after the tire inflation pressure has been corrected.
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      03-17-2009, 08:31 AM   #7
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Sounds like nothing more than smart marketing. I have not noticed any difference in any car with Shell...all I know is I get less MPG with winter blends, and in this area, all have that 10% ethynol.
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      03-17-2009, 08:35 AM   #8
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They were refering to some nitrogen compound in the Gasolene mixture. But the nitrogen tire debunking is always welcome.

Shell with Nitrogen: it has the electrolytes your car craves!

their quote: "Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines. The increased stability ensures that the molecule can work under much tougher engine conditions by resisting thermal breakdown better than conventional cleaning additives."

So in other words, In our big giant detergent molecule there is at least one atom of nitrogen.
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      03-17-2009, 12:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
The mixture is fuel is Federally regulated, so it would shock me if they've made any significant change at all, especially one that's going to cost them money and force them to charge more for fuel to turn the same profit. Consumers just won't buy it.
While I certainly would hope that all of us 1Addicts would not fall for the Shell bit, unfortunately many do. Down here in SoFL, Shell Gas is LITERALLY 15-20cents/gallon more than other stations, even ones that are right next door to it. Yet, people go in and get Shell Gas. I don't get it.

If a gas is PROVEN better, with significant unbiased data, and it cost a bit more, would I use it? Yes. But, it better be proven, and it shouldn't be a crazy amount more.
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      03-17-2009, 12:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird View Post
Down here in SoFL, Shell Gas is LITERALLY 15-20cents/gallon more than other stations, even ones that are right next door to it.
Funny, here in central Florida Shell is 5-10 cents CHEAPER, which is why my 135i has had nothing but the Nitro candy since it came out.
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      03-17-2009, 12:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern View Post
Shell with Nitrogen: it has the electrolytes your car craves!
but why does your car crave it?

Because it's got electrolytes!
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      03-17-2009, 12:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amurph182 View Post
but why does your car crave it?

Because it's got electrolytes!
Because it's a thirsty beeyotch!
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      03-17-2009, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird View Post
What would be the better question is, "What the heck would nitrogen do to the gas to make it better?"

We know nitrogen is large particles. We know it doesn't get hot like air does. We know that if you store liquids in nitrogen, they don't break down as much, like with carbonated beverages.
Gases have some solubility in liquids, but it isnt huge.

If I told you that I put amines in your gasoline, would it mean anything? Probably not, and it may be considered a bad thing. If I told you that I put nitrogen in, I'd imagine it would make more sense as an element we can relate to (it is 78% of the air we breathe).

Amines, or polyether amine in particular is a very good fuel additive for keeping injectors and the combustion chamber clean. Amines are derivatives of ammonia, and they are comprised of (hydrocarbon) functional groups that contain a basic nitrogen atom with a lone pair. Shell can't tell you this because the marketing people have never taken a serious chemistry, math or engineering course in their life and don't understand it... So they have to take it down to a low level...

No guarantees, but I'd imagine that this is what they are inferring... given PEA being such a good cleaner. PEA is used in products such as Chevron Techron, and is one of the few adds that tend to show no extra bearing wear when used. Sometimes fuel adds show bearing wear because of the solvents and base fluids they are contained in. Using PEA natively in fuel is a good concept... though IF it is the case, is really no different than chevron with techron, for the most part.

Just my 2c.
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      03-17-2009, 01:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildenstern View Post
"Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines. The increased stability ensures that the molecule can work under much tougher engine conditions by resisting thermal breakdown better than conventional cleaning additives."

So in other words, In our big giant detergent molecule there is at least one atom of nitrogen.
See my post above, you're on to something!
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      03-17-2009, 02:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird View Post
While I certainly would hope that all of us 1Addicts would not fall for the Shell bit, unfortunately many do. Down here in SoFL, Shell Gas is LITERALLY 15-20cents/gallon more than other stations, even ones that are right next door to it. Yet, people go in and get Shell Gas. I don't get it.

That's because the Shell stations in S. FL are all owned by one company, and they are overpriced at every location. It's true from Miami all the way up into St Lucie county. That's not the case in other locations in FL or the rest of the country.

I don't get why people go to them either, but we both know S. Fl has more than it's fair share of idiot.

(I spent 7 years in Palm Beach)

Last edited by jeremyc74; 03-17-2009 at 08:03 PM..
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      03-17-2009, 03:13 PM   #16
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I am up in Illinois and Shell has actually been pretty competitive. Been using it since I got the 1er last year. The other day I put BP in the car, 93 Octane of course, and yesterday the engine was mis-firing badly. Called the dealer and he said they have had a lot of cases of bad gas, and recommended I switch the gas to a high tier gas brand and see if it happens again. I got no Check Engine light and upon restarting the engine the problem was gone.

I just filled the car with Shell 93 with Nitro(gen) and will see if the problem re- emerges or not. Anyone else have a 135i with a rough running engine problem?
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      03-17-2009, 07:11 PM   #17
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I use it coz its 2.04 instead of cumberland farms 2.19 - mpg seems a little better but thats all.
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      03-17-2009, 09:47 PM   #18
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hee hee hee hee . . . . . . Well I thought nitrogen filled tires for 45 bux was radical. I just think it's a big joke on the public. Methanol was the first and nitrogen the second - they're just telling us it's full of crap on the cool...

The sad part is I actually fuel with V-Power because it always ran better in my little Mazdaspeed MX-5 and G35. Honestly my 1er seems to enjoy the V-Power and BP Ultimate about the same.
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      03-17-2009, 10:29 PM   #19
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Shell is competitive here, price-wise, and it is not out of the way. When I'm home, I fill up there. It is the one tier-one gasoline available nearby.

Don't know about the nitrogen thing, that is up for others smarter than me.
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      03-18-2009, 02:24 AM   #20
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I like Shell. Don't know about this nitro thing, however, my tribologist has always liked Shell and the premium is supposed to have nearly twice the add pack of it's closest top tier gas competitors. Don't know if fact. My Shell/CITI card has given me a 5% monthly rebate since 2004 and hence Shell is always the "least expensive" gas in town. I top up before half empty (various reasons), only use Shell, add either Fuel Power products (maybe over kill) and if all this is just snake-oil-B.S..... it makes me happy, my UOA's are nice (soluables 1-2 ppm), I get great mileage and my cars and cycle run just fine...YMMV...
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      03-18-2009, 05:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
That's because the Shell stations in S. FL are all owned by one company, and they are overpriced at every location. It's true from Miami all the way up into St Lucie county. That's not the case in other locations in FL or the rest of the country.

I don't get why people go to them either, but we both know S. Fl has more than it's fair share of idiot.

(I spent 7 years in Palm Beach)
Thank you!! Now I know, and the rest of us SoFL people can know. Although, you would think that this company would lower its rates so that it could universally undercut across the counties and load up its stations with customers. But, not all businesses get it right.....like AIG, Fannie Mae, etc etc etc.

As for our share of idiots, here is a good one. We 1Addicts are smarter than the other BMW owners. Case in point: Driving down a 3 lane blvd, a 650cic stops, blocks the entire lane, just so he can drop his top. Cars beeping, causing traffic, nah, no worries to this idiot. Yes, we 1Addicts are the smarter ones of the BMW community. That's my belief and I'm sticking to it!
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      03-18-2009, 05:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHZR2 View Post
Gases have some solubility in liquids, but it isnt huge.

If I told you that I put amines in your gasoline, would it mean anything? Probably not, and it may be considered a bad thing. If I told you that I put nitrogen in, I'd imagine it would make more sense as an element we can relate to (it is 78% of the air we breathe).

Amines, or polyether amine in particular is a very good fuel additive for keeping injectors and the combustion chamber clean. Amines are derivatives of ammonia, and they are comprised of (hydrocarbon) functional groups that contain a basic nitrogen atom with a lone pair. Shell can't tell you this because the marketing people have never taken a serious chemistry, math or engineering course in their life and don't understand it... So they have to take it down to a low level...

No guarantees, but I'd imagine that this is what they are inferring... given PEA being such a good cleaner. PEA is used in products such as Chevron Techron, and is one of the few adds that tend to show no extra bearing wear when used. Sometimes fuel adds show bearing wear because of the solvents and base fluids they are contained in. Using PEA natively in fuel is a good concept... though IF it is the case, is really no different than chevron with techron, for the most part.

Just my 2c.
Well, this is certainly one of the most intelligent posts I have read in a while, thank you. Good information.

Now, the next step is for someone to identify what the percentage of these additives is inside the gasoline, and is it the right amount. We all know that when a fruit juice drink says "contains real fruit juice" and it only has 5% real juice, it is worthless. So, is Shell gas, or Chevron Techron gas, up to snuff on its amount of additives?

Anyone in the know on this?
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1984 Audi 4000S Quattro modified
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