Need help on next track modification

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Do any of you guys run hubcentric spacers on your cars which see track time? Is it safe to do so, and can it damage wheel bearings or other components?

Only if I have no choice, ie such an ideal wheel in the perfect offset doesn't exist and I need to get around the strut. And even then a 3-5mm spacer should suffice if you picked the "right" wheel.

But to answer your 2nd question, no it won't damage wheel bearings or other components. Plenty of folks use them. If you notice bearings failing, it's not because of the spacers but the abuse from the track. High amounts of heat from the brakes + hitting the curbs hard can do a number on your hubs. I just replaced my front left hub few months ago, seems like they last 2-3 years of tracking.

If you're running anything wider than 10mm, say 15-20mm, I'd be more worried about the change in scrub radius seeing how the car's suspension geometry wasn't intended for that.

[02rsxpilot]

Also use a high quality spacer of the right material and use appropriate length bolts/studs. We once had a guy's aluminum (I believe) spacer expand under the heat of track use, popped his lugs and his wheel went flying towards one of the flagger stations.

[dcaron9999]

My set up is pretty simple. M3 control arms, and Ground camber plates set for max camber (total is -3.2*). Here are 255/35 on style 261 RIM pics with BMS 10mm hubcentric spacer and supplied bolts. http://www.burgertuning.com/BMW_wheel_spacers.html

Close to strut but no rubbing. Hardly enough space to fit a pen ...












Steering fully turned ...




can fit a finger between tire fully turned and oil cooler cover grille ...

[dcaron9999]

Here are my alignment specs:



Here is what the front tires look like after 6 months of abuse (15 track days and total of 6000 miles). These" used" to be RE-11 tires lol:



These are the rears ...

[3002 tii]

That second to last picture could pass for a slick lol

If it's that close with 10, I'd go with 12 to be safe. Under hard deflection I could see potential rubbing. Plus 10's are never safe in the front in my opinion because the hub lip is just about that size, which is why you see vendors often recommend lip extenders or some won't even recommend a 10mm in the front (I believe it was Rogue Engineering).

By the way that's a really good alignment, perfect camber and toe for track. What's your caster though?

[John_01]

I'm going to state the obvious: It seems you will have less space if you buy some new RE-11s, so it will be closer to the oil cooler.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by John_01

I'm going to state the obvious: It seems you will have less space if you buy some new RE-11s, so it will be closer to the oil cooler.

The diameter of the 255/35 (25.0") is actually a bit smaller than the 225/40 (25.1") which Ive been running, so rubbing should be less of a concern, even with new tread...

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

That second to last picture could pass for a slick lol

I know. Front tires actually acted like slicks on my last "dry" track event - lots of grab, no understeering .

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

If it's that close with 10, I'd go with 12 to be safe. Under hard deflection I could see potential rubbing. Plus 10's are never safe in the front in my opinion because the hub lip is just about that size, which is why you see vendors often recommend lip extenders or some won't even recommend a 10mm in the front (I believe it was Rogue Engineering).

Thanks. Will keep an eye out for this, and probably order a 12 or 15 mm spacer if I go with the 255/35R18 square setup.

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

By the way that's a really good alignment, perfect camber and toe for track. What's your caster though?

Looks like they forgot/missed the caster on the alignment print out.

Not sure I like the alignment as is, or maybe not with the 255/35 in the front and 225/40 in the rear (for my temporary testing). There is noticeable dartiness (tramlining) on the highway though. Harold (HP Autowerks) recommends I tone the front toe down a notch (.04 instead of .15).

[Kgolf31]

Toe-in on the front and toe out in the rear? Am I getting that right.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Toe-in on the front and toe out in the rear? Am I getting that right.

That is what you are seeing and it looks like a strange choice to me. It would be better to try zero toe rear and toe out at front before deciding to try toe out at the rear.

Toe out is destabilizing when either at the front or the back. The current alignment looks to me like a confused attempt to improve turn-in. Toe out is more typically applied to the front first and the rear second. I am sure you know that Kgolf31 - this is for the benefit of the OP!

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by fe1rx

That is what you are seeing and it looks like a strange choice to me. It would be better to try zero toe rear and toe out at front before deciding to try toe out at the rear.

Toe out is destabilizing when either at the front or the back. The current alignment looks to me like a confused attempt to improve turn-in. Toe out is more typically applied to the front first and the rear second. I am sure you know that Kgolf31 - this is for the benefit of the OP!

Yea, I just want to make sure I'm seeing the "front" of the car right...looking at it again it does seem to be the case, because the front has caster measurements.

For reference, I'm running about -0.01 minutes toe at the front, and 0.07 minutes toe at the rear.

You need toe-in at the rear if you want power down. As well, under braking I would imagine that rear end gets very light.

[fe1rx]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Looks like they forgot/missed the caster on the alignment print out.

I have found that you need to be very specific in your alignment requests if you want printouts. It is a really good idea to ask for a before and after printout so you can see exactly what was changed. You need to ask when you drop the car off not when you are picking it up.

Also check out what parameters their machine can provide and ask for all of them on the printout, otherwise they may not give you the non-adjustable ones like caster (on your car with GC street plates).

[dcaron9999]

Thanks guys. The alignment shop techs simulated suspension load and lift both in the front and in the rear. Then went with these toe settings to compensate. They seem to know what they were doing, so I went with it.

Will get the toe corrected on my next tire refresh (0 toe in front, and slight toe in, in the rear.

[Kgolf31]

OP - This is my alignment sheet. Some values appear to be a bit-off, but the machine is basically bouncing the numbers back and forth so whenever the screen capture was made the values were at that moment

[dcaron9999]

Thanks Kyle. I assume the top diagram is your "before", and bottom is your "after"?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Thanks Kyle. I assume the top diagram is your "before", and bottom is your "after"?

Yes Sir.

All measurements are in minutes. So 3'37" is -3.61* degrees

Conversion to minutes to degrees is simply divide by 60. So 0.07 minutes equals 0.11*

[dcaron9999]

Got it.

0 toe in the front, + .12* toe in the rear, on each side, with total toe in of .24*.

Front + Rear camber is maxed out already on my 135i, Im happy with it, and will leave as is.

If I end up with fat 255/35 rubber in the front, I may reduce the front camber depending on wear pattern. I may just get nerdy, and buy one of these pyrometer to measure temps across the tread, to see which area of the tires get most abused, then adjust camber+toe accordingly ...

[3002 tii]

I think this goes back to again, having a compromised dual setup. And I use the word compromised for lack a better of word because I really think you have a nice setup now. It's just you've reached or about to reach the point where you need more from your car. On track your skills are outgrowing the factory limitations of the car and now it's a matter of suspension or wider tires/rubber but the downside is it'll take away from the driveability of your daily commute.

I know the initial cost is a lot but I think you should invest in a 2nd set of tires for track only. Get cheaper but longer lasting tires for your daily, ie something along the lines of Conti DW or DWS if you deal with light snow. Get super sticky street tires (if you're not ready for R-comps) for track. You may find it's not that much more expensive if you consider how quickly you're wearing down your single set of tires + cost of m&b, etc.

For alignment, I personally like a dash of toe out in the front but if you want to preserve wear, stick with 0 toe. Later when you have the budget, look into streetable coilovers like KW v2/v3/cs. JRZ, Motons, AST's are nice but they're not meant for street and you may find yourself spending money on frequent rebuilds. And if you don't need the height adjustability go with Koni/Bilstein with quality springs.

Again all this won't get the perfect track setup but I think it'll allow you to take your dual duty car to the next level while letting it remain a dual duty. Then you can start looking into Schroth ASM's for track if you find yourself sliding but don't want to commit to seats & rollbar.

Or you can say fuq it and just buy an e36 M3 for $6500 and spend $3500 for maintenance & track parts and call it a day lol.

[dcaron9999]

Tires: Im still struggling with the choices, and my limited budget . I have a full day event booked for May 18, my front RE11 tires are showing cord. New tires take a few weeks to order at most local shops.

Here are my options, in order of increasing costs ...

choice #1: Buy front 225/40R18 RE11 front tires to replace my corded ones (I have a set waiting for me at the shop). Keep stock style 261 RIMS (18x7.5 front and 18x8.5 rear).

choice #2: buy used stock style 261 RIMS locally (found one for $300CAD). Combine the rears on that set and my set, to end up with a square 255/35R18 setup. Front fitment is fine with a 10 mm spacer and -3.2* camber, M3 control arms. These wheels are heavy though. This set would be used for dual duty as option #1. Order two new extreme performance 255/35R18 tires (my current RE11 255/35R18 rears still have a bit of tread left, but close to wear bars).

choice #3: buy use set of light weight 17x8 or 17x8.5" RIMS . Buy DOT approved R compound tires that I can drive to the track. Still need to buy front RE-11's or cheaper tires to install on my stock style 261 wheels for daily driving wheel/tire set up.

choice #4: Buy square VMR 18x8.5" ET40 wheels. It will take 1-2 weeks to get them, so not early enough for my event. Buy 255/35R18 R-compound DOT approved tires. Buy RE-11's or cheaper option to install on my stock style 261 for daily driving set up.

choice #5: buy a dedicated set of light weight 17x8 or 17x8.5" RIMS. Buy DOT approved R compound tires that I can drive to the track. Buy RE-11's or cheaper option to install on my stock style 261 front wheels for daily driving set up.

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

I think this goes back to again, having a compromised dual setup. And I use the word compromised for lack a better of word because I really think you have a nice setup now. It's just you've reached or about to reach the point where you need more from your car. On track your skills are outgrowing the factory limitations of the car and now it's a matter of suspension or wider tires/rubber but the downside is it'll take away from the driveability of your daily commute.

I know the initial cost is a lot but I think you should invest in a 2nd set of tires for track only. Get cheaper but longer lasting tires for your daily, ie something along the lines of Conti DW or DWS if you deal with light snow. Get super sticky street tires (if you're not ready for R-comps) for track. You may find it's not that much more expensive if you consider how quickly you're wearing down your single set of tires + cost of m&b, etc.

For alignment, I personally like a dash of toe out in the front but if you want to preserve wear, stick with 0 toe. Later when you have the budget, look into streetable coilovers like KW v2/v3/cs. JRZ, Motons, AST's are nice but they're not meant for street and you may find yourself spending money on frequent rebuilds. And if you don't need the height adjustability go with Koni/Bilstein with quality springs.

Again all this won't get the perfect track setup but I think it'll allow you to take your dual duty car to the next level while letting it remain a dual duty. Then you can start looking into Schroth ASM's for track if you find yourself sliding but don't want to commit to seats & rollbar.

Or you can say fuq it and just buy an e36 M3 for $6500 and spend $3500 for maintenance & track parts and call it a day lol.

Thanks for the recommendations! They make sense.

There are only two spots in my garage, so a third dedicated track car is not in the short term plans.
The 135i suits me just fine, and I just need to tweak a few things, and spend on key items to keep my budget under control. If I still get a kick out of my 135i and tracking next year, I will probably invest in the suspension (coilovers, or springs+dampers).

Im picking up a second set of dirt cheap style 261 RIMS this evening (getting them for $300).
I will then have a choice to make between
(a) running square Extreme Performance tire setup
or
(b) running staggered R-compound/streetable tire setup, and separate less aggressive staggered street setup.

[dcaron9999]

I jut got my hands on a second set of style 261 RIMS for my 135 (18x7.5 + 18x8.5). Just finished fixing curb rash on all of them. Now with two sets of these RIMS, I face the dilemma of either:

#1 - going for a single 255/35 square setup for both street and track. Dont know how the car will behave on the street with that setup. I hope it will not start tramlining/following ruts in the road. I prefer something civilized, and the 225/40 + 255/35 RE-11's did rather well on the street.

#2 - going for two staggered 225/40 + 255/35 sets (one for street/ one for track). I found a good deal on an almost new Michelin PSS staggered street set for $650CAD. For my track setup, I would probably buy a set of Dunlop ZII's, Yoko AO48, Toyo R888, Nitto NT01, or something in the streetable R Comp league.

What would you guys do, and why?

Thanks.

[John_01]

I'd go for 235/40 front and 255/35 rear on the 4x 18x8.5" wheels. I think the 235 tire for the front will work very effectively on the 8.5" front rims. If you get a tire like Hankook R-S3 or Advan AD08-R, it should possible to drive on the street for the time being if you are careful in the wet (and tolerate the noise). There is some possibility the front 235/40 front tire could rub on the fender liner - Maybe you can research this. I believe the two tires I mention have a smaller width (the R-S3), or rounder shoulders (the AD-08R) than typical R-comps, so hopefully there will be no major issue with rubbing the front fender liners.