Reason of Limited Production Conjecture

[SCOTT26]

Growth in markets especially for the X5 and X6 increased mainly in several countries, Particular markets like the middle-east , Russia and China led to demand for the BMW X5M and the BMW X6M .

Today these markets lead the demand for both X5M and X6M models.
And have made both X5M and X6M models successful today.

[mkoesel]

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever for the F22 to be "much lighter" than the e82. It is possible it will be a little lighter, but even that much is a stretch, IMHO. I would look for the F2x and F3x families to be heavier than the E8x and E9x families respectively, and probably by about the same percentage that the F1x is heaver than the E6x. And thus there's simply no way the F22 1M will show up with less power than the E82 1M. The car is going to ring in at a higher MSRP than the E82 1M also, since the next M3 will move up in price as well and give the 1M more room to play with. It's going to be a more expensive, heavier car with enough of a power hike and enough chassis improvement to yield better performance than its predecessor. Just like the evolution of every M vehicle before it.

None of that means that the 6 cyl 1 series is necessarily going to remain, but I personally think that it will simply because they'd lose a ton of sales otherwise. That is, unless there's going to be a turbo4-powered 1 series beneath the 1M that still makes over 300hp. And I don't think there will be.

Originally Posted by hector

i said it before; a 4cyl 1m spells the end of 6cyl 1ers, imho.
scott has previously written that the sub-m 1er will be the tii and that should have a 240hp 4cyl; logically this would be the new "135", so i don't see where any 6cyl. would fit in the new lineup; it'll be:

1m: 4cyl. hp??? 300 or so but much lighter than e82
tii: 4cyl. 240hp
the rest of the lineup

[Robert]

Have to remember that the success of 1 coupe itself was in question back in 2008.

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Such a car is no longer attainable...Call it progress.
What can be done is attempt replicate the driving style which is what the 1M sets out to do.

Even if such a car exists the US Market would not want a stripped out back to basics car nor would they sacrifice luxuries and comfort.

I think you and the rest of BMW would be surprised. Its not that people don't want a back to basics car without the luxuries and comfort; most of us who will buy the 1M would prefer such a car to what is likely to be released. The issue is that companies tend to charge more to remove these heavy superfluous features which take away from the driving experience and sporty nature of the car.

Say hypothetically the 1M is going to have a base price of $47,000. If you removed some/all sound insulation, heavy leather electric seats, leather interior pieces, navigation, electrically variable suspension, 19 in. wheels, heavy/fake quad exhaust etc. you would save considerable weight and cost. However if BMW were to actually release such an enthusiast model, the price would in all likelihood be increased by a few thousand to something around $50,000. In reality this car would cost BMW several thousand less to produce than the real 1M and could be sold with an equal profit margin for around say $40,000-42,000.

So you really think people wouldn't buy such a car at such a price?

[SCOTT26]

Maybe 10% of customers and that goes for the M3 GTS and BMW 5er Touring and the next generation 1er Sporthatch - All put through before the US Dealer nextwork - Not enough to warrant federalization.

[Advevo]

Youre right.

If bmw gets stuff out the car it costs even more.

GTS cost 2 times an M3. Unbelieveable. Less is more money at bmw.

[HERR FSTIR]

Scott,

Here's a suggestion to mollify some of the discontent amongst potential 1M buyers.

It seems unlikely that U.S. customers will be able to do European Delivery with the vehicle (I know you don't have anything to do with this decision). Instead, how about offering a special M driving event in Germany limited to only committed 1M buyers (i.e. deposit down, order in system, etc.). The event could include a few 1M prototype vehicles. You could charge a hefty premium for this and make it cost neutral for BMW. This would be a one time event sometime next spring around the time the car goes on sale in Europe.

You could even throw in a special memento - perhaps a fancy leather driving jacket similar to what Dr. Segler was sporting at Oktoberfest?

[spellbmw]

+1

[PrimoM3]

+2

[Atropos]

There's likely no manufacturing reason to make this a limited run car. It's simply an attempt to put an artificial "rare" status on the car right away, instead of letting the open market decide for itself.

*shrug* People looking for this performance in a car of this price range will simply walk away, and put themselves in a competitor. BMW isn't doing itself or potential customers any favors by taking this stance.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by hector

i said it before; a 4cyl 1m spells the end of 6cyl 1ers, imho.
scott has previously written that the sub-m 1er will be the tii and that should have a 240hp 4cyl; logically this would be the new "135", so i don't see where any 6cyl. would fit in the new lineup; it'll be:

1m: 4cyl. hp??? 300 or so but much lighter than e82
tii: 4cyl. 240hp
the rest of the lineup

I basically agree with you! The engine roadmap for the F22 1M will be defined based on the decision of the BMW AG to bring or not to bring a turbo 6cyl engine in the regular model or not. In case BMW decides to NOT bring a 6cyl in the NON 1M I think it is save to say that M will go the road of using a 4cyl turbo with > 300PS.
I also (contrary to others here) expect them to gain some achievements regarding weight saving at least in the M-Model. At the time the F22 is coming to market the new BMW plant for producing carbon fiber parts that is mainly built for the upcoming MCV project, will be able to deliver cost effective carbon fiber parts. This in concunjction with other light weight measures that will be surely developed in the ongoing "efficient dynamics" program should be good for a weight saving of approx 100kg when comparing 6cyl E82 1M and 4cyl F22 1M.
This in turn means it would be sufficient to squeeze out about 320 PS from the turbo 4cyl to have the same power/weight ratio as the E82 M. And as we all know: Same power/weight ratio but with less weight has superior dynamic.

From a M standpoint this will be a wise decision as it fits perfectly in the current overall strategy:
Having a lighter, more dynamic car with less fuel consumption/CO2 output -> this should be marketable in 2014!

BUT ... in case BMW AG decides to bring a turbo 6cyl in the F20, it would be a bit tougher.... adhering to a 4cyl would be almost impossible for the F22 M! An M MUST have considerably more power than its regular sibling. And this will be hardly possible, since power above 340/350 PS for a 4 cyl. would mean power per liter about 180 PS. I think this will harm driveability of this engine a lot.

[Madozu]

+3

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Maybe 10% of customers and that goes for the M3 GTS and BMW 5er Touring and the next generation 1er Sporthatch - All put through before the US Dealer nextwork - Not enough to warrant federalization.

You're comparing apples to oranges. The M3 GTS is very expensive for what it is with BMW placing it head to head or even slightly more expensive than the GT3 RS. This is a BMW website but i promise you only %10 if you were lucky would choose the GTS over the GT3 RS myself included even if it were available in the US as a road legal car. That is BMW's fault for offering something that does not compete at the level is priced at, just look at its extremely disappointing Nurburgring time. If BMW had created an M3 GTS or CSL and were priced say competitively or undercutting a base model Carrera (base price $77,800) there would have been a market prior to the economy crashing. As it is today, even an M3 in that price range is questionable which makes the GTS that much more obvious of an unreasonable product which has no relation to the 1M.

The BMW 5er Touring and the next generation 1er Sporthatch are a different story because honestly, no one in the US cares about hatches at this point in time so I don't know how that is surprising.

The 1M is supposed to be the entry level M car that brings in new and younger buyers to the M family. By definition then you are catering to people who are going to care less for luxury and are going to be more willing to accept the sacrifices that are inherent to obtain the performance they desire at a price point they can afford.

Therefore if I understand correctly, with 2,700 1M's worldwide that probably means the US will be receiving approximately 1,000 of them. Are you saying "maybe %10 of customers" would purchase the cheaper more basic version compared to the version we are going to get? You honestly think there would be 100 or less buyers in the US such a car?

There is no way to know for sure until BMW honors its roots as a true performance manufacturer and trys.

[sparoz]

I think all sounds resonable. My dealer had my ordered a while back, so I would be getting the car, but hopefully they are going to produce a few more than 2700.

It will become a cult collectable like the E30 M3. I would like to have it as my DD and AW, but having a car that is in limited run in such low numbers will force me to just drive it on the weekends, and have Valencia Orange, which is not suitable for my DD as I hate catching attention when I am at work. Ie, I will need another DD and a new home to fit 3 cars in .

A production run of 7000 world wide will make me more comfortable driving this car around and picking AW which is my prefered colour.

[Jake C]

Long post....

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Maybe 10% of customers and that goes for the M3 GTS and BMW 5er Touring and the next generation 1er Sporthatch - All put through before the US Dealer network - Not enough to warrant federalization.

BMW AG at the end of the day is a business and as much as I don't like to say it. "Scott" is right. A lot of people may claim they want less of this and less of that but look at the people that are dropping the 1M because there is no DCT planned and the others that may drop it because of lack of color, then those that may drop it because it may not be offered in a cabrio, and more still may drop it because there is no CF roof. At the end of the day if you run a business you do the things that make your company money and keep the majority of people happy. I think it is just human nature to want more or to want what you can't have.

That being said with BMW's size able influence and leadership position. I would tell the customer what it takes for BMW AG to make something happen. I would think that BMW AG conducts "focus groups" and customer feedback and etc... and I would think that goes into some of the products we see and what we do not see. Maybe take it a step further and tell the consumer exactly what it will take to see a certain model or option. I can see it being a slippery slope because BMW AG does not want the competition to know what exactly is coming or exactly how many units it take until BMW AG calls a car a "success". However it would eliminate some of the guesswork and give the consumer what they want. Call it " Customer's spoke and we listened." or something. "We need to sell 5,000 of X car to bring it to the US." Mine the considerable data of existing customers, give the exact specs, ask for non refundable deposits, then deliver on the product. Of course there has to be a margin of error and people that will not follow through with the purchase but take it a step farther than just registering on mpower.de. Ask the people what they want (poll on BMWUSA maybe, open skip level meetings with customers and senior level management), ask for a commitment and then deliver on what is agreed upon. Just my .02

Originally Posted by hlmiii

We wanted simplicity - and we now say it's not acceptable because it doesn't have DCT.
We wanted light weight - and now we say it's not acceptable because it doesn't have XX or YY features/options/devices.
We wanted it to not hit up against the M3 and we now say it won't have enough power.
We wanted it to not be costly - and now we say it's not acceptable because it doesn't have a carbon fiber roof.
We wanted an enthusiast product instead of one for the masses - and now we say it needs to be more available.
We wanted an E82 model now - and now we say it's not acceptable because it's only around for one year.
We thank and request more from Scott26 - and now we're annoyed because an ongoing look into the development process turns out to portray concepts that didn't see production.
We want early info and sneak peeks - and now we're annoyed because BMW gives them to us in an enticing manner.

No product satisfies ANYone 100%.

+1

- J

[HBspeed]

In reality what happened is relatively simple. The bean counters at BMW though hmm... we have a primarily sporty car at 35-40K (135i) and one at 55-60k (M3) Why don't we build a car to the 45-50k price point and define it based on what the buyer would expect for that kind of money while keeping it from upstaging the obese M3.

[ORIGIN M.]

Now thats funny!

Originally Posted by HBspeed

In reality what happened is relatively simple. The bean counters at BMW though hmm... we have a primarily sporty car at 35-40K (135i) and one at 55-60k (M3) Why don't we build a car to the 45-50k price point and define it based on what the buyer would expect for that kind of money while keeping it from upstaging the obese M3.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Youre right.

If bmw gets stuff out the car it costs even more.

GTS cost 2 times an M3. Unbelieveable. Less is more money at bmw.

but that's true for all manufacturers too, and don't forget the warranty on track.

[Advevo]

A GT3 does not cost double of what a base carrera costs. What bmw has done with the M3 GTS is just plain crazy. And it s even more crazy. The car at that price should give the direct competition a hard time but that s not the case either.

Lets hope they have learn from their mistakes and give us this time the right car. 1///M which ticks all the boxes for a drivers car.

Thank G.. it s a manual.
Colours are OK
Looks are fantastic.
Lets hope for manual sporty seats like the M3 CSL had.
Alcantara steeringwheel.
350hp is enough for me.

I have only 2 concerns about the ///M1

Thats Weight and Throttle response / Lag.

Any Throttle lag will kill the fun in cornering and the same goes for weight.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by Advevo

350hp is enough for me.

I have only 2 concerns about the ///M1

Thats Weight and Throttle response / Lag.

Any Throttle lag will kill the fun in cornering and the same goes for weight.

+1, but the throttle lag is only meaningful to you with your skills . Someone like me who can't drift like you probably won't even notice the difference.

[Advevo]

I promise you you will notice even if youre not driving max attack.

We only can hope bmw does it good this time.

[hector]

Originally Posted by manuelf

I basically agree with you! The engine roadmap for the F22 1M will be defined based on the decision of the BMW AG to bring or not to bring a turbo 6cyl engine in the regular model or not. In case BMW decides to NOT bring a 6cyl in the NON 1M I think it is save to say that M will go the road of using a 4cyl turbo with > 300PS.
I also (contrary to others here) expect them to gain some achievements regarding weight saving at least in the M-Model. At the time the F22 is coming to market the new BMW plant for producing carbon fiber parts that is mainly built for the upcoming MCV project, will be able to deliver cost effective carbon fiber parts. This in concunjction with other light weight measures that will be surely developed in the ongoing "efficient dynamics" program should be good for a weight saving of approx 100kg when comparing 6cyl E82 1M and 4cyl F22 1M.
This in turn means it would be sufficient to squeeze out about 320 PS from the turbo 4cyl to have the same power/weight ratio as the E82 M. And as we all know: Same power/weight ratio but with less weight has superior dynamic.

From a M standpoint this will be a wise decision as it fits perfectly in the current overall strategy:
Having a lighter, more dynamic car with less fuel consumption/CO2 output -> this should be marketable in 2014!

BUT ... in case BMW AG decides to bring a turbo 6cyl in the F20, it would be a bit tougher.... adhering to a 4cyl would be almost impossible for the F22 M! An M MUST have considerably more power than its regular sibling. And this will be hardly possible, since power above 340/350 PS for a 4 cyl. would mean power per liter about 180 PS. I think this will harm driveability of this engine a lot.

thanks for the moral support and for expanding upon my points! i think that your' output and weight numbers are close; i'm gonna predict, for what it's worth; 330hp/3200lbs and definitely more dynamic(scott himself has written that the F22 M will have a superior chassis than the E82).