Long-term maintainability of BMWs

[twang]

Hello all,

I've been reading for a while now but this is my first post. I'm about to get my first BMW, a 135i, maybe early Fall.

The impression I get from reading is that many people here don't keep their cars longer than a few years. Which is fine, we're lucky BMW has so many choices when our tastes/lifestyles/finances change. But I'd like to keep my car for the long haul, up to 10 years or more. How does everyone think the new(er) BMWs will hold up long-term? Of course things will break, but even with a bottomless wallet, there certainly seems to be much less work the owner can do himself (even a mechanically inclined one) compared to the old E30's and E36's, what with electronic controls and required diagnostic equipment available only to BMW techs. Are we moving toward a day when our cars become unmaintainable when the manufacturer stops supporting them, like some software product? On top of that, BMW doesn't seem to consider longevity to be a design factor any more, with things like "lifetime fill" and 15,000-mile oil change intervals and removal of the dipstick, etc.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are. BTW, what a great place to absorb all kinds of info! Thanks everyone...

TK

[Tom K.]

Many of us get what BMW calls "Interim" services. I change transmission fluid around 50~60k and oil at about 8k. While the jury is still out as to whether that's really necessary for long life, it helps some of us sleep better for relatively little $$.

I don't mind not having a dipstick as the sensor seems to work well, but I would like a temp gauge (the 128i does not have have the 135i oil temp gauge) to know when the car is warmed up.

Tom

[gpchamp]

I do a lot of "in-between" services. Oil changes every 5k miles.

[TMR013]

You will find endless posts on the new maintenance schedules if you search a bit. Lots of arguments about whether this is some sort of conspiracy by BMW to make us replace our cars sooner, or save a few bucks.
IMO, what a lot of people don't take into account is the march of technology. Most of us were brought up in the age of replace your oil every 3000 miles if you want your engine to last. Not sure that's really the case any more.
My plan is to keep my 1 for at least 8 years. But, I am also considering an extended warrantee for the first time in my life as well. In the end, BMW has never been known for long term reliability, and no doubt are more expensive to maintain.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by twang

Hello all,

On top of that, BMW doesn't seem to consider longevity to be a design factor any more, with things like "lifetime fill" and 15,000-mile oil change intervals and removal of the dipstick, etc.

TK

BMW does care about longevity and there isn't any documented proof that their lifetime fills and oil change intervals are inappropriate for the overwhelming majority of car owners. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of BMWs are not driven as hard as many folks on this board and in the USA, majority are leased and reinspected by BMW.

If you plan on keeping your car for a long time, there is no harm and its cheap insurance to pay for every other oil change and some interval fluid changes. I am still paying less to maintain my BMW than the S2000 and Infiniti M35x it replaced.

As far as people bitching over dipsticks, that's just stupid. The BMW electronic gauge is as accurate as a dipstick, and not as messy. I check it every time I get get gas and it's a heck of a lot more comfortable than opening the hood in the Florida Summer.

[JimD]

The dipstick is not a big deal to me either but I would prefer to be able to quickly check my oil after an oil change versus drive around the block until I can get a reading. After two oil changes I have figured out it will read completely full on 6 quarts so I guess I don't care so much any more. But there are instances like this where a dipstick would be an advantage. Normally, it is more of an advantage to be able to do it from the drivers seat while I am driving.

I'm interested in longevity and plan to keep my bimmer too. I change oil in both my vehicles after no more than 5,000 miles and I use full synthetic in both. BMW oil in my bimmer. It may not be necessary but seems like cheap insurance.

I have a cheap (less than $50) OBDII reader. I haven't tried it on the bimmer yet but I am sure it will read codes. My son has a more expensive one that will display sensor output. It is not everything the dealer has but I think at least something like my cheap one is almost a necessity these days. Once you know what the issue is, it will often give you an option to at least consider replacing it yourself. Things like the oxygen sensors go bad and there are codes for even misfiring cylinders that could be as simple as a bad plug or wire. The electronics can actaully help.

Jim

[twang]

Thanks for the feedback. I said above that I'm getting a 135i (and DCT), but deep down inside I keep wondering if a 128i and manual would more rewarding in the long run, when fun AND maintenance are factored in... with the non-turbo engine and simpler transmission.

[jpd]

Clutch, clutch. Six speeds make a lot of sense, but if you are not a driver of manuels you can wear out a clutch in a few thousand miles. MINI found this out in 2003-2006. You can add more warranty when you purchase the car. I believe it's another 2K.

[twang]

Originally Posted by michifan

The BMW electronic gauge is as accurate as a dipstick, and not as messy.

Good point. I bring up the dipstick, not to restart that debate, but only as an example of how even basic diagnostics are handled electronically now. There was a reply to a letter in one of the BMW print magazines, where the tech guru speculated that even BMW technicians at the local shop don't have all the diagnostic tools on site; they hook up equipment and report the resulting codes up to a higher level tech at BMW NA for diagnosis and appropriate course of action. He foresaw a day when these special tools and "administrator privileges" would be required to even figure out what's wrong. Far fetched, maybe, who's to say what it will be like in a few years?

[Alex_bm]

It's a known fact that DCT, DSG, etc require the added maitenance and care compared to standard gearboxes.
Personally, I would not jump on the DCT wagon if you plan to keep the car after the warranty is expired. It's a new technology. Look at all the fuel pumps posts, and the fact BMW has ditched twin turbo after three years.

On the long run, the less complexity, the better.

[rsjean]

And this scenario is probably what will make the 10 year ownership aspirations of real car junkies like me die and go away.

I kept an E28 and an E30 for well over 200,000 miles. But I knew at worst I'd be in the garage tearing something down, fixing it and putting it back in. Or getting a salvage part and putting it in the place of something beyond repair.

But not on one of today’s platforms - like the E82. I could imagine putting in new parts and them not operating correctly due to a software glitch in pairing the new part to the old system OS. Or not ever being able to know what's really wrong because theres no simple hands on home brew methods.

When software and firmware rule the world - the garage mechanic must move on.

Reminds me of cracking open a jammed cassette case and dumping all the recording tape onto the table and rewinding it slowly back into a patched and glued case making tape splices wherever necessary. Played like new.

Try that with a disc drive or solid state memory.

Originally Posted by twang

Good point. I bring up the dipstick, not to restart that debate, but only as an example of how even basic diagnostics are handled electronically now. There was a reply to a letter in one of the BMW print magazines, where the tech guru speculated that even BMW technicians at the local shop don't have all the diagnostic tools on site; they hook up equipment and report the resulting codes up to a higher level tech at BMW NA for diagnosis and appropriate course of action. He foresaw a day when these special tools and "administrator privileges" would be required to even figure out what's wrong. Far fetched, maybe, who's to say what it will be like in a few years?

[twang]

Hehe... sounds like a parallel discussion over on the "Is it me or is everyone selling their 1's" thread: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408102

[Lexington]

Originally Posted by twang

Hehe... sounds like a parallel discussion over on the "Is it me or is everyone selling their 1's" thread: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408102

Some insights from Mike Miller who writes for Roundel:

"Before deciding how long you plan to keep the new BMW, bear in mind that unless you’re doing it yourself, BMW maintenance is expensive and BMW repairs are extremely expensive. BMWs in general, regardless of year, are extremely expensive cars to own, properly maintain, and repair. Also, there is a reason why new BMWs depreciate faster today than ever before – they have reliability problems, and only the dealer and very few independent shops can fix them. Personally I believe the days of the 300,000-mile daily driver BMW are drawing to a close – they’re just going to be too expensive to repair."

And as far as free scheduled maintenance:

"Once BMW began paying for scheduled maintenance, lo and behold the schedule was continually revised to eliminate maintenance items. Today, according to BMW, the cars hardly need any maintenance at all. The 1,200-mile break-in service was done away with except for M cars. Engine oil suddenly lasts 15,000 miles (dealers are supposed to use BMW synthetic oil). Manual gearbox and differential oil? Now BMW says they never need to be changed on the non-M cars; it’s “lifetime fill.” Brake fluid and coolant service intervals were doubled with no change in the original BMW brake fluid. As of 2005, coolant is now “lifetime fill” as well – with no change in the actual coolant. So, is today’s BMW Maintenance Program all about marketing and cost reduction – BMW’s costs? Draw your own conclusions. There is no doubt that many buyers view BMWs as high maintenance cars and that can be an impediment to sales – but it is also
entirely correct. Nothing can address that more effectively than Free Scheduled Maintenance. The operative word in the name is “scheduled.” In my opinion, extended service intervals and “lifetime fill” came very close on the heels of Free Scheduled Maintenance."

[Tochenzo]

Originally Posted by TMR013

In the end, BMW has never been known for long term relaibility, and no doubt are more expensive to maintain.

Since when has this been true? E30 and E36 motors have known to have substantial life, just read an article in Roundel about an original e30 motor hitting over 500,000 miles recently.

BMW's have been known for long term reliability at the cost of expensive maintenance.

[JimD]

Mike Miller is also not a fan of BMW automatics. He has written that they are particularly expensive to maintain.

Well engineered vehicles should not require a ton of maintenance. I think BMWs are well engineered but we'll see. What maintenance is required will be more expensive, I already pay ~$60 for just the parts for an oil change. ~$10 for just the filter. For my SUV, it's a $20 jug of QS full synthetic and a $6 Purolator. BMW is more than double. But the BMW is also more fun.

Jim

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by Tochenzo

Since when has this been true? E30 and E36 motors have known to have substantial life, just read an article in Roundel about an original e30 motor hitting over 500,000 miles recently.

BMW's have been known for long term reliability at the cost of expensive maintenance.

Well, I guess if you are only talking routine/standard maintenance, that would be true. But I think in most cases the high cost of maintenance you are reffering to is due to heavy repair, or replacement of failed components. If you compare BMW to say a Toyota or Honda in that respect, IMO, there is no way you can say BMW's are notable for their long term reliability.
But, I will also say that it is probably no worse than most later model American makes.

[ennislaw]

Originally Posted by gpchamp

I do a lot of "in-between" services. Oil changes every ... .

Same here, after the break-in oil change at around 1200 or so, then 7500 mile changes. FWIW, I purchased. The last car I purchased will be 18 years old this fall and still running, albeit not without some old age foibles, sort of like me.

pge

[x5mad]

The talk of technology reminds me of the time when my dad bought an e65 7 series when it first came out in Germany. He drove it to london to visit me but whilst in london it broke down. The gas pedal did not accelerate the car above speeds of 60mph.

We drove it to a dealer in London who had never seen one before. They didn't have diagnostic equipment for the e65. They called BMW Germany who organized flat bed truck all the way back to Germany as well as flying my dad back to Germany in first class.

In the end all it turned out to be was some sort of solenoid in the gas pedal.

So if BMW themselves in London could not repair and had to refer back to germany it is not hard to imagine technology being a hindrance to your average mechanic or independent specialist, and thus for them being unable to touch your car.

[jc_lbc]

The technology stuff trickles down to the independents as soon the cars start to trickle out of warranty. A good independent will always be able to fix your car. And in some ways, newer cars are easier to repair since they often diagnose themselves. As others have said though, maintenance costs will always be a problem. If you want to own a BMW you have to be capable of and prepared to pay for it.

Here are the major problems I've had with my BMWs...
'96 318ti bought used in '97 with 16k:
Had an automatic rear differential when it was a manual transmission car. Seriously. BMW put the wrong diff in the car at the factory. Also, the alarm would go off randomly. Both problems fixed under warranty. Sold with 65k on the clock.

'98 318ti bought used in '01 (CPO) with 22k:
Lost first gear at about 40k got a new transmission. Blew a starter motor. Had to replace the cat at around 100k. Hazard lights still come on randomly if the AC is used. Nobody has been able to figure out why. Radio reception shit the bed this year for no apparent reason.

'02 325iT bought in '05 (CPO) with 35k:
Alternator went around 100k, fuel pump around 130k and had to repalce a leaky washer fluid pump twice.

I'll be shocked if I couldn't get a solid 150k out of this car, including the DCT, without any major mechanical malfunctions but you never know. Shit happens. Same as with any car brand. My buddy's 4-5 year old Acura TL which is supposed to be bulletproof has had various minor to moderate problems.

[twang]

Originally Posted by TMR013

If you compare BMW to say a Toyota or Honda in that respect, IMO, there is no way you can say BMW's are notable for their long term reliability.

I suppose, if people drove their BMWs like they drove Corollas and Civics, they'd last just as long. But that's not the point of these cars, and it's a shame that to drive them like they were intended comes with such a high price, outstanding engineering notwithstanding.

Maybe I should just go the lease route, and think of it as buying the brand instead of a single car. Hey, maybe 10 years from now, BMW will offer a "lifetime lease" where you just pay $1000/month and are supplied with a new car every 3 years. Sorta like maintaining a software license and getting free upgrades!

[SupremePower3335]

I too plan on keeping my car for a while..I want to be without car payments for a few years after this baby is paid off. I did get the DCT as my wife wanted auto and this was only choice. Not sure I made the right decision but I guess time will tell. So far I do love this car - the M3 is only thing I would trade it in for (can't believe I'm even thinking that after how much I've just laid out for this car)

The only point that I wanted to add was that although bimmers are expensive to maintain they are not MUCH more than /Lexus/Merc/Infiniti..my boss just got his Bremo brakes done at Infiniti on his 2004 G35 - it cost him 2K, yep 2K and it doesnt drive like our BMW's..

Who knows perhaps I'll keep getting a new one every few years and accept car payments as a fact of life or just get a Kia RIO and call it day..

SP

[mtla4]

Being honest from my past experiences

Japanese>American>Euro in term of reliability. Yes the japanese might drive differently but they were pretty much reliable. I've never experienced a check engine from any car beside my european cars. Fun to drive but be ready to spend some time in the shop or driving loaners.

European cars often have stupid problems like condensation in lights, bad interior fit and finish which leads to premature wear etc....
This will not stop me from driving european cars but as a daily I'm done. I didn't really care at one point but I'm just fed up for now.
I'm talking about Mercedes, Bmw, Audi had them all and none of them were not problem free cars. Trust me my swapped modded Honda-Mazda-Nissan back in the days were more reliable then all these cars.