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[feeshta]

Hello all. I've been reading here for several weeks now, and I've got a general idea of what I would like to do with my new car overall, but it really seems like the way I would prefer to go is fraught with some downsides. I wanted to get some general opinions from you guys if I could.

To start with, I'm more or less set on going with Ohlins suspension, Michelin PSS tires, and most likely Apex Racing wheels. What I'm trying to figure out is how to approach front and rear wheel sizing, camber plates/control arms, spacers, etc.

So, this is what I am mulling. I would really like to go to a square tire setup, both for the sake of improved handling and the ability to rotate tires. However, everything I am reading about doing so seems to say you need to go with very aggressive camber settings, spacers, etc to be able to go to 245s all around. It seems like the consensus is you need roughly -2° of camber and a 3 mm spacer on the front to make it fit with an 8.5" rim at 45mm offset, which would also fit on the rear. This sounds like further than I really want to go though. It seems like a really good way to chew up front tires at impressive speed, or tramline all over creation, or both. Although I am sure it would handle nicely while doing so, I'm not really interested in dealing with those downsides if at all possible.

So, I'm left wondering if I am taking a too all or nothing mental approach to achieving good handling balance? Is there a way to achieve good results, especially concerning front end grip and handling balance, without going to such extremes? Would going with a 235 front tire and say a 245 or 255 rear be a major difference to the positive on the handling front without requiring spacers and lots of camber? Maybe I could get away with just the Dinan camber plates up front?

Basically I'm looking for input from folks who have experience with this. I'm not looking for that "stanced" look, I want something perfectly functional. No fender rub will ever be tolerated in my car, nor will whacked out tire wear.

So what are your thoughts on this? Which way would you go if you were in my boat?

[02rsxpilot]

It sucks, but square setups on this car are just a lot of work, and probably not worth pursuing unless you are willing to go aggressive camber and fender work.

If I were starting out again with only street driving in mind, I'd probably give 225/245 PSS a shot on whatever wheels you like (I like the Apex Aero-7s for street use). I'd do M3 control arms, not camber plates, to get just the right amount of camber plus the improved steering feel the better bushings and lighter materials offer. This would be an easy install while the Ohlins were going in.

If you entertain any ideas about tracking though, then it's a whole 'nother story and I myself am just beginning to ponder what I'd like to do with wheels and tires.

[lowbudgethero]

I've been mulling over this since the roads in my area are terrible at best. I currently use the stock suspension and 12mm hub centric spacers with the stock rear wheels all around on 255 tires (effectively the same as the apex offset) with the free camber mod and rolled front fenders. I think I'm one of the few that really likes the 5 spoke 264 style rims. 245s will fit without rolling. The key is keeping near stock ride height, I'd also be willing to bet with a set of firmer shocks the car wouldn't have needed the fender roll.

[Dackelone]

I would go with 225/255's...


My new Michelin PS3’s 225’s & 255’s…
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510873

Dackel's replacement of rear suspension OE bushings with M3 ones…
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638163


and some other good threads on suspension mod-ing...

OE vs M3 Rear Suspension Arms
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1079383


M3 front control arms (Upper and lower) - A couple of $hundred less than everywhere
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736789

[feeshta]

Wouldn't this leave the bias towards under-steer intact and just raise the limits a bit? I guess maybe increasing front camber would help a bit with alleviating this issue, but it just seems like the car would still want to push all the time with this sort of setup.

P.S. Seeing your other thread makes me nostalgic for Germany. I was stationed at Spangdahlem Air Base from 2000-2002, and then went to Ramstein Air Base for 3 months in 2005. I was back again for euro delivery on my first 135i in November of 2008. It's amazing how much things had changed from an exchange rate and commodities price standpoint, but I have always enjoyed my time in Germany.

Do they still have a tax or fee on installing plus sized wheels there? I remember when I bought my first car there, a 1992 VW Golf VR6, the saleslady had a new Audi S3 with 19s on it. I complimented her on the wheels, and she mentioned that she was probably going to take them off because she couldn't afford them. Confused, I asked why and she explained that she had to pay a fee on them yearly, and because they were a +2 size, it was expensive. I thought that was downright nuts. I also remember that she initially didn't want to let a young American Airman test drive the "powerful" golf VR6 because she was afraid I would wreck it. She grilled me on whether I had ever driven a fast car before, I guess my answer that I had driven a 1966 Shelby Cobra 427 without wrecking it satisfied her. LOL!

[feeshta]

So, I contacted Apex racing yesterday and asked their recommendation on this front. They stated that their wheels in 18x8.5 ET 45 can fit 245/35/18 tires on all 4 corners of the 135i with the only required modification being the possibility of a slight fender roll on the rear. Can anyone verify this? I keep reading that fitting 245s up front requires spacers and extra camber, but they are saying that is not true. Anyone have any insight here?

[Kgolf31]

ET45 you should be okay. If you were to run ET40 you might have issues.

I run currently 17x8.5 ET40 with 245/40 Hankook RS3s.

Currently I have on order Kosei K8R 17x9 ET45 with 255/40 Bridgestone RE71Rs.

I run tons of camber, like -3.5* ton up front to get it to fit

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by feeshta

Wouldn't this leave the bias towards under-steer intact and just raise the limits a bit? I guess maybe increasing front camber would help a bit with alleviating this issue, but it just seems like the car would still want to push all the time with this sort of setup.

P.S. Seeing your other thread makes me nostalgic for Germany. I was stationed at Spangdahlem Air Base from 2000-2002, and then went to Ramstein Air Base for 3 months in 2005. I was back again for euro delivery on my first 135i in November of 2008. It's amazing how much things had changed from an exchange rate and commodities price standpoint, but I have always enjoyed my time in Germany.

Do they still have a tax or fee on installing plus sized wheels there? I remember when I bought my first car there, a 1992 VW Golf VR6, the saleslady had a new Audi S3 with 19s on it. I complimented her on the wheels, and she mentioned that she was probably going to take them off because she couldn't afford them. Confused, I asked why and she explained that she had to pay a fee on them yearly, and because they were a +2 size, it was expensive. I thought that was downright nuts. I also remember that she initially didn't want to let a young American Airman test drive the "powerful" golf VR6 because she was afraid I would wreck it. She grilled me on whether I had ever driven a fast car before, I guess my answer that I had driven a 1966 Shelby Cobra 427 without wrecking it satisfied her. LOL!

You must mean this thread...

Schöner 135i in Deutschland…
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383375

Yes, I love living(& driving) over here in Deutschland. I know I am very fortunate.

I never heard of a tax on +1 or +2 wheels. I know you have to get the car's registration papers(fahrzeugzeugschein & briefe) - amended so that the TUV says those tires and wheels are ok for THAT car model. This sometimes costs a lot. A few hundred euros. But I thought that was only a one time fee.

The fahrzeugzeugschein use to even state WHICH tire brands and sizes were allowed. IF it only said GoodYear and Dunlap... in XXX size... that was ALL you could legally use. When you got pulled over for a traffic stop... and IF the Polizei checked... you could be in deep water for non approved tire brand. Let alone a different tire size or wheel.

No adays the tire brand has been lifted... but still you MUST use only the tire sizes which are listed on/in your fahrzeugzeugschein. I had some trouble fitting 225's/255's on my factory wheels. In the tire shops books... it says the 255's need a 9.0 inch wide wheel. Our rears are 8.5inches. At first my German tire shop did not want to mount the tires. But I told them hey... my car is American specs and I have American TUV... then they were ok with it.

I also pointed out to them that BMW themselves uses 255's rear tires on 8.5 wheels on some models(3er & X1's).

As for young American driving skills.... we have a reputation for ending up in the ditches of Germany. A lot of military guys skimp out on the technical standards of their cars. Cheap tires, or bald tires, bad brakes. The Germans see, that when the weather turns bad... we also crash into a ditch or another German. So they all think we can't drive fast. lol Sad but true. We also don't tend to yield or take our "right of way" when we are driving. This really upsets the Germs.

You should come over for another visit! The dollar is buying almost ONE euro(well... 0.93 euro cents!!) right now. There has never been a better time to visit Germany!

Dackel

[MightyMouseTech]

Dialing in some front camber goes a long way to getting rid of front understeer. My car came from the factory with almost 0 front camber. Now I am sitting at -1.9 in the front with just the M3 arms and Dinan fixed plates. Makes a WORLD of difference when you actually use more than the outer 1" of tread in a corner.

[Freon]

Originally Posted by feeshta

I keep reading that fitting 245s up front requires spacers and extra camber, but they are saying that is not true. Anyone have any insight here?

This topic is well covered all over this wheel/tire subforum.

No one can give you a 100% guarantee because it will depend on exactly what tires and other suspension changes you make, if you want to do coilovers later and if so which ones and how low you'll set them, if you really consider some slight rubbing under weird circumstances a real issue worth worrying about, etc.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216413
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862626

[feeshta]

For some reason, the board will not allow me to quote your post Dackelone.

Actually I hadn't seen that thread, thanks for pointing it out. All it took to get me nostalgic was seeing the German tire shop and background scenery in your other post about upgrading your tires. ) I'm actually an army civilian employee as well, and have occasionally toyed with the idea of taking a job in Germany or the UK. I work at Aberdeen Proving Grounds Md at the moment. If your installation has an Auto hobby shop, I whole-heartedly recommend taking advantage of it, which you are allowed to do as an Army Civilian. I have saved thousands of dollars doing my own work on my 540i.

I'm actually planning a trip to Europe this summer, but unfortunately Germany is probably not going to fit in this time. My friends and I are going to do Budapest, Wienna, and Prague with a few other stops. I've been to Prague before, and loved it. The exchange rate there is incredible, as it is in Hungary. We had originally planned to do Munchen as well as I was considering doing Euro delivery on a 235i, but I changed my mind and we are now planning more for eastern Europe.

Oddly enough, I did actually end up off the road in my Golf, and it had a lot to do with issues you just mentioned. When I got the car from the VW dealer, it had two different brands of tire, front and rear. I had never hear of either brand, as neither were available in the US, but the car seemed to handle ok so I wasn't all that concerned. I planned to replace the wheels and tires anyway, so I didn't consider it a major problem. A few weeks later I'm driving on the B50 from Bitburg to Spang in a light rain at about 80 KPH following another car. As we go around a long sweeping right hand turn, suddenly the rear axle has absolutely zero traction. It literally felt like I ran over a banana peel with the rear tires only, which is really weird in a front wheel drive car. I'm trying to slow down, and the back end just wants to keep on going so I am having to try to stay ahead of it with the front end. I see a car coming the other way, realize that I will hit them if I try to stay on the road and ride out the slide, and decide that going off the road is a better option, so I turn back the other way. The car immediately swaps ends, and goes off the road backwards and down a hill into a field on the right side of the road. I had to call a friend with a 4x4 pickup to get me out, but fortunately the only damage to the car was bent rim which I was planning on replacing anyway.

So I take the car to a mechanic a friend had told me of(who turned out to be the best mechanic I have ever met) and he immediately looks at the tires and says "right there is your problem, those rear tires are junk and the fronts are actually decent". Wish I knew that when I bought the car. Anyway, Joe the mechanic hooked me up with new wheels and tires for a price I couldn't believe, and corrected an alignment issue with the car. I really wish I could still take my car to Joe. He was awesome.

[feeshta]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Dialing in some front camber goes a long way to getting rid of front understeer. My car came from the factory with almost 0 front camber. Now I am sitting at -1.9 in the front with just the M3 arms and Dinan fixed plates. Makes a WORLD of difference when you actually use more than the outer 1" of tread in a corner.

I do plan on going with a little more aggressive camber. I just ordered M3 front control arms today, but a former BMW master mechanic friend of mine swears that anything much over -1° is a recipe for severely shortened tire life.

The thing is, he moved on from being a BMW tech in 2002 and has never worked on one of these cars, so I'm not sure who to trust here.

[feeshta]

Originally Posted by Freon

This topic is well covered all over this wheel/tire subforum.

No one can give you a 100% guarantee because it will depend on exactly what tires and other suspension changes you make, if you want to do coilovers later and if so which ones and how low you'll set them, if you really consider some slight rubbing under weird circumstances a real issue worth worrying about, etc.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216413
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862626

It just seems like with the popularity of the Apex Racing wheels and Michelin PSS tires I plan to use, there must be someone out there that has tried this arrangement? I do plan on going with coilovers and M3 control arms, but will not be going much if any lower than current ride height, as the roads where I live and travel are pretty poor and getting to my family cabin involves some really high-crowned single track roads which need some ground clearance.

Rubbing is simply something I will not tolerate. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things like this.

[135TX]

Originally Posted by feeshta

I do plan on going with a little more aggressive camber. I just ordered M3 front control arms today, but a former BMW master mechanic friend of mine swears that anything much over -1° is a recipe for severely shortened tire life.

The thing is, he moved on from being a BMW tech in 2002 and has never worked on one of these cars, so I'm not sure who to trust here.

The mechanic might be correct for say a 540i (that sees mostly city and highway driving) but for a Macpherson style front suspension which we have any time the front compresses you are actually losing camber. In addition pushing the car a bit through any turns will cause you to use the outside edge of the tires. All an all id say you need about 1* + of negative just to prevent chewing up the outside of your front tires.

For example: The person who I bought my car from had the original runflats at 33k the tires still had pretty good tread left except the outside shoulders of the front tires which were bald. He was on all stock everything, but enjoyed spirited driving around the canyons in SoCal....

For safety purposes its MUCH better to have a car that pushes/ understeers than to have a tail happy car, especially one with 300 HP. the 225/255 is a great combo which keeps the tire diameters very close to stock. Apex is incorrect in telling you you wont need a spacer to run +45 offset 245 tires up front. They told me I had to run at least a 3mm spacer for strut clearance, im running a 5mm and its still within a few mms.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by feeshta

I do plan on going with a little more aggressive camber. I just ordered M3 front control arms today, but a former BMW master mechanic friend of mine swears that anything much over -1° is a recipe for severely shortened tire life.

The thing is, he moved on from being a BMW tech in 2002 and has never worked on one of these cars, so I'm not sure who to trust here.

1 deg is nothing on the front of a RWD car. On our 328 race car, we were running -5.0 at some tracks.

[feeshta]

Originally Posted by 135TX

The mechanic might be correct for say a 540i (that sees mostly city and highway driving) but for a Macpherson style front suspension which we have any time the front compresses you are actually losing camber. In addition pushing the car a bit through any turns will cause you to use the outside edge of the tires. All an all id say you need about 1* + of negative just to prevent chewing up the outside of your front tires.

For example: The person who I bought my car from had the original runflats at 33k the tires still had pretty good tread left except the outside shoulders of the front tires which were bald. He was on all stock everything, but enjoyed spirited driving around the canyons in SoCal....

For safety purposes its MUCH better to have a car that pushes/ understeers than to have a tail happy car, especially one with 300 HP. the 225/255 is a great combo which keeps the tire diameters very close to stock. Apex is incorrect in telling you you wont need a spacer to run +45 offset 245 tires up front. They told me I had to run at least a 3mm spacer for strut clearance, im running a 5mm and its still within a few mms.

Personally I much prefer the balance of a neutral handling car to one that pushes on the limit. There is just something inherently displeasing about a car scrubbing the front tires in my opinion, it's one of the main reasons I will no longer drive a front wheel drive vehicle.

I'm not looking for a tail happy car either, but one that has balance. My driving style tends to protect me from mishaps when it comes to the tail stepping out, as I tend to be someone who is more about preserving momentum than trying to get my foot down as early as possible on the way out of a corner. I'm not a hyper aggressive driver, and I tend to be very judicious with the throttle. I've never had an incident of the back end stepping out on me that didn't occur in inclement weather, and I was always prepared to immediately catch them when they have happened. This includes my old 540i when it was on a square setup like I am seeking, at 255 on all 4 corners.

Everyone has their own preferences when it comes to their cars, and I simply dislike cars that under-steer, so I am looking to avoid that.

Thanks again for the information, but again I am seeing contradicting statements about the viability of 245 on the front, even in this very thread. I've seen cars listed as having the setup I desire without camber and spacers, and I've seen tons of people say it isn't possible like you are. I'd just like to know which it really is.

[feeshta]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

1 deg is nothing on the front of a RWD car. On our 328 race car, we were running -5.0 at some tracks.

Have you run something like -2° on your car for extended periods without negative effect? If so I would happy to hear it, as I know it will corner better that way. Also, if so what did you have to do with the toe settings to tame it from a tramlining perspective?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by feeshta

Have you run something like -2° on your car for extended periods without negative effect? If so I would happy to hear it, as I know it will corner better that way. Also, if so what did you have to do with the toe settings to tame it from a tramlining perspective?

I'll take pictures of my front tires. I DD the car with -3.5* camber.

I run 0 toe up front, never had tramlining issues.

However, on my Z4M (same tires) I run 0 toe and the car walks all over the place. So

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by feeshta

Have you run something like -2 on your car for extended periods without negative effect? If so I would happy to hear it, as I know it will corner better that way. Also, if so what did you have to do with the toe settings to tame it from a tramlining perspective?

I run -1.9, has been for a year now. No uneven wear.

Right now running 0 front toe.

[lowbudgethero]

Originally Posted by feeshta

It just seems like with the popularity of the Apex Racing wheels and Michelin PSS tires I plan to use, there must be someone out there that has tried this arrangement? I do plan on going with coilovers and M3 control arms, but will not be going much if any lower than current ride height, as the roads where I live and travel are pretty poor and getting to my family cabin involves some really high-crowned single track roads which need some ground clearance.

Rubbing is simply something I will not tolerate. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things like this.

The key is stock ride height, so I've found with my experience 245s on a 40 offset fit perfectly at stock ride height. I had to roll the front fenders for 255 dunlop ZII tires, they only rubbed on the drivers side on big bumps on the highway. I think this is also in part to having the floppy stock shocks as well allowing too much travel. The PSS tire runs slightly smaller than the dunlops as well. A friend of mine with ST coilovers at max height needed fender rolling with 245s to prevent mild rub over bumps.

[feeshta]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

The key is stock ride height, so I've found with my experience 245s on a 40 offset fit perfectly at stock ride height. I had to roll the front fenders for 255 dunlop ZII tires, they only rubbed on the drivers side on big bumps on the highway. I think this is also in part to having the floppy stock shocks as well allowing too much travel. The PSS tire runs slightly smaller than the dunlops as well. A friend of mine with ST coilovers at max height needed fender rolling with 245s to prevent mild rub over bumps.

If it's just a fender roll, I would be fine with that. I plan on keeping it near stock ride height anyway, due to the fact that I drive on some pretty rough roads on a regular basis, and the fact that there are a lot of massive speed bumps in my area. My 540i will scrape slightly on speed bumps, and I hate that. It's also a pain to get onto the lift when I change the oil etc, as it scrapes on the drive on style and the body lift will just barely go under it. It's not as if it is that low, at only barely below factory ride height. The lift points are just low to the ground it seems.

[02rsxpilot]

feeshta The ability to fit 245 square is going to depend on your tire choice. That's why you have conflicting comments. Someone may have had no trouble fitting a 245 tire that actually measured at 9.2 inches, and someone else may have had no chance of fitting it when the 245 tire they bought was really 9.8 inches.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1116229