135is tune

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

If you wanna ride the DME's safety system, be my guess. Most newer factory DMEs can adjust fueling & ignition timing up to 25%, but it's designed as a safety precaution because of poor fuel quality. The BMW DME has been the saving grace on this platform, because if you tried that on a EVO or STI , kiss your motor good bye. And since when is piggyback boost control any better than flash??

The N54 had the same development: prior to COBB PROtuning being released on the N54, 400 WHP on stock turbos was impossible without meth (used as a fueling bridge). Now, it can be achieved on 93 octane. Now the N55 OEM turbo is a serious power limitation, but I expect the JB4 vs. COBB PROtuning (which N55 got last month) performance differences to become much more noticeable with the Vargas upgrade.


There's a reason that both vendors that started out as strict piggyback advocates are both offering flash tunes (requiring them for higher power setups) to their boost/meth controllers.

To be fair, the JB4 doesn't JUST ride the knock sensors (unless on the auto tune map), as it monitors CAN by itself.. it's not as unsafe as you just said.

As for why it's better at boost control.. that should be self evident - it's not restricted by the DME's logic and control strategies.

As for the second paragraph.. Totally agree, the JB4 at higher power levels needs a back end flash for timing and fuelling obviously.. but again, it's still arguably superior in many ways what with the 2-step, NLS, much more advanced meth control, and switchable boost maps... at the pointy end of things, every now and then the JB4 actually has the *whatever setup* horsepower record over the cobb... really the only thing holding the JB4 back right now is single cylinder monitoring only, which imo is a HUGE deal

otherwise, for the future.. .i can see the piggy's being better for ST builds, being you don't have to rely on massacring the DME to run them... and secondly, for supplementary port injection, the JB4 has the chance to be custom modified to run the injector drivers needed, something that's not possible with JUST a flash.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by flinchy

As for why it's better at boost control.. that should be self evident - it's not restricted by the DME's logic and control strategies.

As for the second paragraph.. Totally agree, the JB4 at higher power levels needs a back end flash for timing and fuelling obviously.. but again, it's still arguably superior in many ways what with the 2-step, NLS, much more advanced meth control, and switchable boost maps... at the pointy end of things, every now and then the JB4 actually has the *whatever setup* horsepower record over the cobb... really the only thing holding the JB4 back right now is single cylinder monitoring only, which imo is a HUGE deal

otherwise, for the future.. .i can see the piggy's being better for ST builds, being you don't have to rely on massacring the DME to run them... and secondly, for supplementary port injection, the JB4 has the chance to be custom modified to run the injector drivers needed, something that's not possible with JUST a flash.

Restricted to DME logic? Then can you explain how the VTT S3 car was restricted to 725 WHP on GTX2863R twins? 2-Step, NLS & Gauge Hijacking are nice vanity features, but haven't shown to be worthwhile features IMO -- 6MTs still bog with the 2-Step & NLS usually causes a Timing Flatline. Personally it find it just as dangerous to only monitor Cylinder 1s Activity as having the Piggyback manage you tune and meth system (which is advancing the tuning with the octane increase). Meth should only be used as a cooling agent & for all the people that are anti-E85, you should really see what long term meth use does to your internals.... To each's own.

The piggyback once again can and has been easily replaced by a standard EBC, which IMO is better suited for the job. The supplementary port injection is still in theory, so that holds as much water as me saying PTF has exclusively used COBB to tune their ST.

And maybe it's just me, but I really don't find it that impressive when a tuner holds a WHP record. I mean, if running a glory dyno tune is going help them sell a few more tunes, why wouldn't then run the car on a setting they'd never recommend to a customer??

[Freon]

The factory boost control algorithm seems to be very smart. It's a full PID with some feed forward values. The question here is how many of the tables are exposed by Cobb tuning software, and how well does the tuner understand them, and has your tuner every actually bothered to read a book on control theory and thus identify the algorithm and controls.

My educated guess is that OEMs do not tune these by hand, or if they do only as a minor step for some edge cases. There is a bunch of rather deep calculus that goes into tuning PID control loops, especially as the logic of the loop becomes more complex.

Blaming the ECU's boost control for poor results when the average self-proclaimed "tuner" is very ignorant is misplaced blame.

It may be fair to say that the factory algorithm is too complex for the average "tuner" to figure out and use effectively, and something simpler may give better results. But that complexity is there for a reason, so you are probably giving up performance, consistency across weather conditions, etc. by using something simpler.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Restricted to DME logic? Then can you explain how the VTT S3 car was restricted to 725 WHP on GTX2863R twins? 2-Step, NLS & Gauge Hijacking are nice vanity features, but haven't shown to be worthwhile features IMO -- 6MTs still bog with the 2-Step & NLS usually causes a Timing Flatline. Personally it find it just as dangerous to only monitor Cylinder 1s Activity as having the Piggyback manage you tune and meth system (which is advancing the tuning with the octane increase). Meth should only be used as a cooling agent & for all the people that are anti-E85, you should really see what long term meth use does to your internals.... To each's own.

The piggyback once again can and has been easily replaced by a standard EBC, which IMO is better suited for the job. The supplementary port injection is still in theory, so that holds as much water as me saying PTF has exclusively used COBB to tune their ST.

And maybe it's just me, but I really don't find it that impressive when a tuner holds a WHP record. I mean, if running a glory dyno tune is going help them sell a few more tunes, why wouldn't then run the car on a setting they'd never recommend to a customer??

Because it's got totally rewritten boost control part of the ECU?

do you know how much work went into tuning that car? A LOT OF WORK went into tuning it, it's not running some modified base map.

long term meth does to internals? it's less corrosive than petrol.'

also, the timing flatline thing is an IJE0S (or something) issue, not IA80S (the most common DME revision)

and the piggyback controlling meth is well known to being superior and safer.

i do agree it shouldn't HAVE to be used for additional fuelling, but until someone comes up with upgraded port injection (after the DI is maxed out when vargas hopefully releases the final upgrade to the HPFP system) that fully works.. (RICK@DEFIV is working on it still though).. or the proEFI finally gets released in like 2016 lol

and no, a standard EBC can't read ANYTHING on the ECU, the piggy is like an EBC but way way more advanced.

aand no.. you realize that the 'glory tunes' were done on customer cars? and have been independantly repeated and broken over and over..??

Originally Posted by Freon

The factory boost control algorithm seems to be very smart. It's a full PID with some feed forward values. The question here is how many of the tables are exposed by Cobb tuning software, and how well does the tuner understand them, and has your tuner every actually bothered to read a book on control theory and thus identify the algorithm and controls.

My educated guess is that OEMs do not tune these by hand, or if they do only as a minor step for some edge cases. There is a bunch of rather deep calculus that goes into tuning PID control loops, especially as the logic of the loop becomes more complex.

Blaming the ECU's boost control for poor results when the average self-proclaimed "tuner" is very ignorant is misplaced blame.

It may be fair to say that the factory algorithm is too complex for the average "tuner" to figure out and use effectively, and something simpler may give better results. But that complexity is there for a reason, so you are probably giving up performance, consistency across weather conditions, etc. by using something simpler.

oh yeah there's no doubt it's super advanced, but it works within it's own limitations... like.. you know, the 2.5bar MAP sensor limit? the boost control system, to work with the 3 bar map sensor.. it's not super simple stuff lol... where the JB4 does that off the bat.. so there's another advantage.. being able to run more than 21psi.

and like you say, being advanced makes it DIFFICULT to control.. again, the JB4 has much EASIER boost control. complex != better. Load based tuning for sure has it's advantages, but not always when you're going for high power.

Luckily cobb has re-written a lot of stuff for certain DME revisions, with 3d maps and stuff..

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Because it's got totally rewritten boost control part of the ECU?
Further illustrating COBB's capability of better DME control than any other N54 tune available

do you know how much work went into tuning that car? A LOT OF WORK went into tuning it, it's not running some modified base map.
Obviously it is a very different setup then an OEM/RB Turbo car, so naturally a lot of work into it.

long term meth does to internals? it's less corrosive than petrol.'
It'd be more concerned about it's damaging effect on the oil

also, the timing flatline thing is an IJE0S (or something) issue, not IA80S (the most common DME revision)
It's still an issue that every setup encounters (strict flash, strict piggy, stacked). Not for nothing, 2-Step/NLS are very abusive on turbos and the transmission. I'll exclusively focus on the 2-Step feature because there's a lot more wear & tear associated with that, I'm sure the strategy being used is very primitive and nothing more than an RPM Hold/Full Boost (i.e., NO proper adjustments have been made to the Ignition Tables.... No Bueno)

and the piggyback controlling meth is well known to being superior and safer.
Independent Meth control and not tuning for meth are the safest.

i do agree it shouldn't HAVE to be used for additional fuelling, but until someone comes up with upgraded port injection (after the DI is maxed out when vargas hopefully releases the final upgrade to the HPFP system) that fully works.. (RICK@DEFIV is working on it still though).. or the proEFI finally gets released in like 2016 lol
This is something indisputable, that the N54's fueling limitation is holding back the advancement of this platform. I do agree that a piggyback controlling supplemental port injection will probably be the most effective solution to bridge the gap. Unfortunately, Motec is the ONLY standalone EMS that has DI control (used on the DI TT-Lambos and R8s), so until ProEFI/Syvecs/AEM Infinity reverse engineers it they're on the sidelines. Truth is it's only a matter of time because every major platform is switching to DI (Porsche Turbos, Corvette, new M3/M4, etc), so they'll have to keep up with the major platforms they support.

and no, a standard EBC can't read ANYTHING on the ECU, the piggy is like an EBC but way way more advanced.
What more do you need? If you're using the bench flash to control Ignition, VANOS, Fueling, and letting the piggy control just control boost, then an EBC is a better setup. IF you are using a piggyback to control Meth, Supplemental Port Injection, AND Boost, then yes I'd much rather have 2-stacked system (Bench Flash/Piggyback) then 3-systems (Flash/Piggy/EBC)

aand no.. you realize that the 'glory tunes' were done on customer cars? and have been independantly repeated and broken over and over..??
Really? Cause all I've seen is Terry/Shiv going back and forth (excluding CaptainInsano's Twin Scroll ST), about HP records. I've also never seen complete logs illustrating that they're running customer-friendly, reliable tunes on these WR pulls.

I'll respond in bold instead of dissecting

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I'll respond in bold instead of dissecting

Further illustrating COBB's capability of better DME control than any other N54 tune available

Oh no doubt, for flash tunes cobb is head and shoulders above the rest... The JB4 isn't left in the dust though

It'd be more concerned about it's damaging effect on the oil
not a concern, oil wise it's the same as running E85/blends.. you need an oil with high TBN to resist the acids.

It's still an issue that every setup encounters (strict flash, strict piggy, stacked). Not for nothing, 2-Step/NLS are very abusive on turbos and the transmission. I'll exclusively focus on the 2-Step feature because there's a lot more wear & tear associated with that, I'm sure the strategy being used is very primitive and nothing more than an RPM Hold/Full Boost (i.e., NO proper adjustments have been made to the Ignition Tables.... No Bueno)
re-read what i wrote.. only IJE0S is effected by the timing flatline, IA80S is fine... and the strategy for 2step is the same as any 2-step... it's a secondary rev-limiter put in place .. if a timing/ignition limit was put in place, it wouldn't work.. look up on what 2step is and what it achieves.

Independent Meth control and not tuning for meth are the safest.
nope, do more reading, the piggy's have superior meth control. Yes the standalone meth controllers are better than they used to be, but not AS good.

What more do you need? If you're using the bench flash to control Ignition, VANOS, Fueling, and letting the piggy control just control boost, then an EBC is a better setup. IF you are using a piggyback to control Meth, Supplemental Port Injection, AND Boost, then yes I'd much rather have 2-stacked system (Bench Flash/Piggyback) then 3-systems (Flash/Piggy/EBC)
becasue the piggy can vary it's boost targets similar to how the DME does it. a standalone EBC can't, it's just less safe.

Really? Cause all I've seen is Terry/Shiv going back and forth (excluding CaptainInsano's Twin Scroll ST), about HP records. I've also never seen complete logs illustrating that they're running customer-friendly, reliable tunes on these WR pulls.
yep! the last few 'record' tunes posted by terry have been on customer cars.. both of terry's N54's have been down for a few months getting singles/rebuilds. You're right, they're probably not 50k mile+ reliable tunes, but they ARE run on customer cars

-_-

[Mit_Boost]

Now responding in non-bold

Originally Posted by flinchy

re-read what i wrote.. only IJE0S is effected by the timing flatline, IA80S is fine... and the strategy for 2step is the same as any 2-step... it's a secondary rev-limiter put in place .. if a timing/ignition limit was put in place, it wouldn't work.. look up on what 2step is and what it achieves.

Just gonna leave this here for you, cause you're wrong:

nope, do more reading, the piggy's have superior meth control. Yes the standalone meth controllers are better than they used to be, but not AS good.
They don't. You're saying they have better control is because the piggybacks increase how aggressive the tune is (basically tuning for meth, big no no). If you're using meth strictly as a cooling agent, a Independent Meth Controller is the best way because the tune should be the same with or without meth.

becasue the piggy can vary it's boost targets similar to how the DME does it. a standalone EBC can't, it's just less safe.
(We're talking Single Turbos) Why would you want the boost adjusting, that's only going to cause inconsistency with the tune (whether it's under or overshooting the target? If the tune is made properly, there will be a nice cushion of safety space (in case something goes wrong), and it should run the SAME every time.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Now responding in non-bold

1- proefi being awesome doesn't mean anything for the fact that timing flatline isn't a problem with IA8OS... just google it, it'll come up under other forums, specifically for IJEOS..

the proEFI's 2step is of course more advanced, but not because it's inherently a new 2step, but because the proefi is one of the best standalones on the market, DO WANT... but the JB4 isn't a 'hack' solution or anything.

2- meth has never been used PURELY for cooling at the same power levels.. waste of time and money

the cooling effect of meth allows more boost and timing, and that is all it should NEED to be used for.

why would you bother with meth if it didn't allow you to run a more aggressive tune?.... you wouldn't.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=w...meth+injection

3- .. why wouldn't you want the ability to adjust boost however you want on a single? I'm just confused now as that makes no sense haha.. however you set the map on the piggy, every pull will be the same, so it DOES have consistency.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by flinchy

1- proefi being awesome doesn't mean anything for the fact that timing flatline isn't a problem with IA8OS... just google it, it'll come up under other forums, specifically for IJEOS.. ...but the JB4 isn't a 'hack' solution or anything.

Yes, the flatline issue is a known problem that's been plauging this platform (specifically high power 6ATs & using NLS on 6MTs). But that was a response directly to the JB4's anti-lag strategy, and it's not any good. Like you specifically stated, it's just an RPM-hold and allows a specific boost target to be hit, but there is SO MUCH more that goes into a proper anti-lag (just from a reliability stand point).

Originally Posted by flinchy

2- meth has never been used PURELY for cooling at the same power levels.. waste of time and money

the cooling effect of meth allows more boost and timing, and that is all it should NEED to be used for.

why would you bother with meth if it didn't allow you to run a more aggressive tune?.... you wouldn't.

If you want to run & tune for meth, you go for it. But it is basically UNIVERSALLY agreed that you shouldn't be using meth as a octane booster or fueling bridge in case of mid-pull failure (which could potentially lead to significant motor damage). PTF follows this mindset when tuning (Tune for Fuel, NOT Meth) and all of their tunes have shown gains when using an independent meth system that has not been tuned for. Why? Because of the significantly lower Intake Temps yielding safe power.

End the day, it's your car and you alone are taking the risk. But if you want to look at notable tuners (BMW with AA/ESS, ES Motor with Porsches, etc), they all specifically use it as an IAT suppressant.

Originally Posted by flinchy

3- .. why wouldn't you want the ability to adjust boost however you want on a single? I'm just confused now as that makes no sense haha.. however you set the map on the piggy, every pull will be the same, so it DOES have consistency.

We're talking about two different things. Obviously with an EBC you can adjust the boost target (a DD Map, vs a 93-Kill Map or an All Out Race/E85 Kill Map). The difference with the EBS and the piggy, is one is "tricking" the DME and the other is properly setting a boost target (indepdent of the DME, which it should be assuming you're no longer using the OEM DME's boost strategy/control). Take a guess which one is which.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

For people who are more bottom line results oriented & not so wrapped up in the theoretical "what if's" debate none of the top 135 or 335 cars listed on Drag Times are running either Dinan tune or a stand alone COBB. In fact out of the 368 posted 135/335 times very few are from either tune.

As for Dinan most of their stuff is rebranded & highly marked up products like the Spearco FMIC that they sell under the Dinan label.

[TridenTBoy]

Any updates on this? Is there anything beyond jb4?

[tomcat0071]

MHD bench unlock is coming soon. Piggyback tunes make me nervous so I'll be using MHD's solution

[c1pher]

Dinan S2 tune is currently $669, so that's something to consider since many people factor in price.