BMW's mistake with the E82 135i and M1

[BMW269]

I am not saying that these cars are bad and must not have been built, but that BMW did a mistake in its marketing strategy.
We see that the M1 E82 is very close in HP number to the 135i E82. Indeed, an M car is not all about HP, but if we look at at the HP difference, we can clearly see the 100 HP scale:

335i E92: ~300 HP
M3 E92: ~400 HP
550i E60: ~400 HP
M5 E60: ~500 HP

With the 1 Series lower it would be...

125i E82: ~200 HP
M1 E82: ~300 HP

The problem is that this 300 HP M1 E82 is already the 135i E82. It has the power of an M car, but not the rest. Now to bring an M1 E82 above the 135i E82 is a very hard task. If as it should be for an M car, it gets 100 HP more, it will be better than an M3 E92, so this is not possible, the power has to be kept lower. The power has to be kept low so that
- M1 E82 stays slower than the M3 E92
- M1 E82 stays slower than the next M2 F22,
but also quite above the 135i E82, to justify itself as an M car.
As we see, only 40 HP is enough, that the M1 E82 should be considered a real M car and thus be faster/better than the 135i E82.

Mistake number 1
The E82 N54 had not to come as a 135i, but directly as an M1. The 135i E82 is already quite close to the M3 E46, and the distance to the M3 E92 would be easier - and not easy - to keep, because
- FI 2.0l I4 = NA 3.0l I6
- FI 3.0l I6 = NA 4.0l V8
- FI 4.0l V8 = NA 5.0l V10. So even in this way the FI 3.0l I6 M1 E82 is quite equal to the N1 4.0l V8 M3 E92.
Big Mistake number 2
The M1 E82 gets an engine based on the N54, which is "equal" to the S65 in the M3 E92, and thus for this reason, will find itself under the bonet of the next M3 F32, probably in the form of S55. That the M1 E82 should not destroy M marketing strategy, they have to keep the power so low that it should be faster than the M3 E92 and the next M3 F32, so as the succesor of the M1 E82, the next M2 F22, that will have to be better with a FI 2.0l I4 than the car with the FI 3.0l I6.
The M1 E82 needed to get its engine based on the N53 (NA 3.0l I6) rather than on the N54 (FI 3.0l I6). This would cancel all the previous problems and it would be:
- lighter
- according to M philosophy
- be the perfect middle between 135i E82 and M3 E92, with a 340 HP NA 3.0l I6 and M3 E92 supension it would be faster than the 135i E82, also thanks to a 70 kg loss, and would never be able to reach the M3 E92, whatever tune it gets, something that many will do to their M1 E82 N54, in order to make their car faster than the M3 E92
- it will be easy for the next M2 F22 to be faster with its additional weightloss, and its lighter and more powerful / torquy FI 2.0l I4.

As conclusion, BMW had to bring out the M1 E82 before, with a NA 3.0l I6 and leave the FI 3.0 I6 for the 3 Series E9X and above. But what is done it done, and cannot be redone. It is simply a bit disapointing that what is done nicely, M1 E82, could be done even better.
Whether you agree with this or not, I think to be right with what I said, and think BMW also knows it. We cannot blame them, they just could not foresee this. The most important thing is that it does not hurt them, and that the M1 E82 N54 reaches its goal.

Now I wish BMW good luck with the next M2 F22 FI 2.0l I4 and M3 F32 FI 3.0l I6 and wish the put the power and performance up to an other level.
I hope it will look like this:

225i F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~250 PS
M2 F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~400 PS
335i F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~350 PS
M3 F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~500 PS
650i F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~450 PS
M6 F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~600 PS

That is the right hierarchy.

[Dackelone]

Perhaps this is why BMW AG's board was so torn as to the name of the 1M. Remember THAT big thread. 135i/135iS/M1/1M/M135is/140i, ect, ect...

I think BMW AG has done the right thing with the 1M. Building "a car" for enthusiasts by enthusiasts! M// brand.

Dackel

[MyCorvette]

Actually from some internal sources the 135i is originally designed to be a M car. At that time the team was instructed to build something with the M marketing potential. When the project is nearly done, something inside the management happened. Finally the project is named 135i instead of 1M. This is why the gap between 135i and M3 is so small which makes some people consider the 135i is not a typical BMW x35 product like 335/535 etc.

This also leads to the difficulty of building a product named '1M' 3 years later. It is really hard to make something that can fit in the tiny gap between 135i and M3. Therefore we see just small hp bump, no DCT etc...

[M3 Adjuster]

While I agree that it sometimes seems that BMW does not bring out cars that they clearly should develop sooner, . the info you have is not correct, from my experiences with speaking to folks that work for M. Our conversations revolved around them getting final approval for a 1M project and wanting to build a car more for enthusiasts, however as will all M cars (now and in the future) the car is still based on the platform from which it comes.

As an example... we were told there would not be a Z4 M... but then years later one is developed... The same has
happened with the 1M as well. I think that BMW AG has sort of struggled with an identity crisis regarding what models should be considered an M car.. should it just be the M3, M5, and M6... or should many models have the M
logo... And to be honest.. many old school BMW owners still feel this way as well. Now that BMW has gone more progressive, and even gone as far as developing M SUV models, there are still many old school people that feels M only means a car that has, say... individual throttle bodies... or.. only can be a coupe.. and not a sedan.. etc..

As far as the difference in horsepower....in the past.. significant increases in hp have come through either multiple throttle bodes (E30 thru E46) and then greater displacement (added two cylinders for V8 M3 and V10 M 5 models) and now the HP advantages are coming from the use of turbos. The 1M has been indicated to have an additional 40hp.... That's not a small amount as far as I am concerned... would 350 look even nicer and maybe fit more solidly between a 135 and an E9x M3?? sure... but it's you that has the numbers paradigm... not the folks at M

one thing I can tell you... is that the M division is always ready to take on a new project it seems.. and there has been a change in management at M in the last 2 years. The folks that we met with are young.. generally in their thirties, and some a bit younger... They have a true passion for cars, and some of the folks that we met had dreams of owning M cars when they were kids...... part of why they went to work for BMW... and now they are in the lucky position to actually be moved into the M division.... I had a simply fantastic time meeting them and finding out more about them.

[Yogijet]

Originally Posted by Levi

I am not saying that these cars are bad and must not have been built, but that BMW did a mistake in its marketing strategy.
We see that the M1 E82 is very close in HP number to the 135i E82. Indeed, an M car is not all about HP, but if we look at at the HP difference, we can clearly see the 100 HP scale:

335i E92: ~300 HP
M3 E92: ~400 HP
550i E60: ~400 HP
M5 E60: ~500 HP

With the 1 Series lower it would be...

125i E82: ~200 HP
M1 E82: ~300 HP

The problem is that this 300 HP M1 E82 is already the 135i E82. It has the power of an M car, but not the rest. Now to bring an M1 E82 above the 135i E82 is a very hard task. If as it should be for an M car, it gets 100 HP more, it will be better than an M3 E92, so this is not possible, the power has to be kept lower. The power has to be kept low so that
- M1 E82 stays slower than the M3 E92
- M1 E82 stays slower than the next M2 F22,
but also quite above the 135i E82, to justify itself as an M car.
As we see, only 40 HP is enough, that the M1 E82 should be considered a real M car and thus be faster/better than the 135i E82.

Mistake number 1
The E82 N54 had not to come as a 135i, but directly as an M1. The 135i E82 is already quite close to the M3 E46, and the distance to the M3 E92 would be easier - and not easy - to keep, because
- FI 2.0l I4 = NA 3.0l I6
- FI 3.0l I6 = NA 4.0l V8
- FI 4.0l V8 = NA 5.0l V10. So even in this way the FI 3.0l I6 M1 E82 is quite equal to the N1 4.0l V8 M3 E92.
Big Mistake number 2
The M1 E82 gets an engine based on the N54, which is "equal" to the S65 in the M3 E92, and thus for this reason, will find itself under the bonet of the next M3 F32, probably in the form of S55. That the M1 E82 should not destroy M marketing strategy, they have to keep the power so low that it should be faster than the M3 E92 and the next M3 F32, so as the succesor of the M1 E82, the next M2 F22, that will have to be better with a FI 2.0l I4 than the car with the FI 3.0l I6.
The M1 E82 needed to get its engine based on the N53 (NA 3.0l I6) rather than on the N54 (FI 3.0l I6). This would cancel all the previous problems and it would be:
- lighter
- according to M philosophy
- be the perfect middle between 135i E82 and M3 E92, with a 340 HP NA 3.0l I6 and M3 E92 supension it would be faster than the 135i E82, also thanks to a 70 kg loss, and would never be able to reach the M3 E92, whatever tune it gets, something that many will do to their M1 E82 N54, in order to make their car faster than the M3 E92
- it will be easy for the next M2 F22 to be faster with its additional weightloss, and its lighter and more powerful / torquy FI 2.0l I4.

As conclusion, BMW had to bring out the M1 E82 before, with a NA 3.0l I6 and leave the FI 3.0 I6 for the 3 Series E9X and above. But what is done it done, and cannot be redone. It is simply a bit disapointing that what is done nicely, M1 E82, could be done even better.
Whether you agree with this or not, I think to be right with what I said, and think BMW also knows it. We cannot blame them, they just could not foresee this. The most important thing is that it does not hurt them, and that the M1 E82 N54 reaches its goal.

Now I wish BMW good luck with the next M2 F22 FI 2.0l I4 and M3 F32 FI 3.0l I6 and wish the put the power and performance up to an other level.
I hope it will look like this:

225i F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~250 PS
M2 F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~400 PS
335i F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~350 PS
M3 F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~500 PS
650i F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~450 PS
M6 F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~600 PS

That is the right hierarchy.

Very thoughtful analysis, sire, with which I cannot but agree in principle.

[manuelf]

Originally Posted by Levi

...
Now I wish BMW good luck with the next M2 F22 FI 2.0l I4 and M3 F32 FI 3.0l I6 and wish the put the power and performance up to an other level.
I hope it will look like this:

225i F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~250 PS
M2 F22: TT 2.0l I4 ~400 PS
335i F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~350 PS
M3 F32: TT 3.0l I6 ~500 PS
650i F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~450 PS
M6 F13: TT 4.4l V8 ~600 PS

That is the right hierarchy.

Basically I aggree with you. The biggest problem for the ///M-GmbH is the FI 3.0 I6 inside the 1-series. The 135i is - simply said - too strong engine wise. The transition to the F2x is tough therefore! If ///M stays with the FI I6 in the F22 M2 it is difficult to calm M3 customers which will think they are just driving an M2 engine with a software tune....
If they switch to (as is generally expected) an FI 2.0 I4 it will be a tough job to meake the M2 F22 really faster than the E82 1M. At least if you take into consideration that a certain amount of E82 1M drivers will not drive the car in stock conditions.
The 400 PS you metioned seem a bit high for me. 200PS per liter could negatively affect driveabillity and durability of the engine. Additionally I expect the M3 F32 engine to be closer to 450PS - so the gap between M2 and M3 would be too small with only 50PS.

[blueshark]

Since M3 has other advantages over M1, like DCT option, more comfort, and better styling (arguably), I don't see much harm in allowing M1 to be faster in a straight line or even around the track. Throw the dog a bone!

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Perhaps this is why BMW AG's board was so torn as to the name of the 1M. Remember THAT big thread. 135i/135iS/M1/1M/M135is/140i, ect, ect...

I think BMW AG has done the right thing with the 1M. Building "a car" for enthusiasts by enthusiasts! M// brand.

Dackel

[///Mangler]

The F30 M3 will be tri-turbo. Three twin scrolls and rev to 8k. 455HP/400TQ. 3400lbs.

T

[Drillslinger]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

The F30 M3 will be tri-turbo. Three twin scrolls and rev to 8k. 455HP/400TQ. 3400lbs.

T

Yeah, cooling won't be an issue on THAT setup, lol

[Jblack4083]

Originally Posted by felixcat

Actually from some internal sources the 135i is originally designed to be a M car. At that time the team was instructed to build something with the M marketing potential. When the project is nearly done, something inside the management happened. Finally the project is named 135i instead of 1M. This is why the gap between 135i and M3 is so small which makes some people consider the 135i is not a typical BMW x35 product like 335/535 etc.

This also leads to the difficulty of building a product named '1M' 3 years later. It is really hard to make something that can fit in the tiny gap between 135i and M3. Therefore we see just small hp bump, no DCT etc...

When the whole 135is/M1 debate was going on, I had brought up the fact that DCT is being excluded for marketing reasons, not to "make it a pure drivers car". Thats marketing bullsh*t that only lemmings will fall for. DCT will make this car faster than the M3 especially when tuned. It's not like DCT isnt already in the 135 on the N55 and in the 335is on the N54. Nobody wants to use their brains they want to be brainwashed into thinking strategies like DCT exclusion is for them, no its for BMW's Marketing department.

[marcel b]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

When the whole 135is/M1 debate was going on, I had brought up the fact that DCT is being excluded for marketing reasons, not to "make it a pure drivers car". Thats marketing bullsh*t that only lemmings will fall for. DCT will make this car faster than the M3 especially when tuned. It's not like DCT isnt already in the 135 on the N55 and in the 335is on the N54. Nobody wants to use their brains they want to be brainwashed into thinking strategies like DCT exclusion is for them, no its for BMW's Marketing department.

not sure if it is only that. I can also imagine they do not use the DCT because of cooling issues. I have the DCT on the N54 and the oil temps go up much faster then on a manual 335i. On a 135 or 335 they can live with that, but for a 1M they have for sure different requirements.
The DCT would mean cooling needs to be increased involving additional cost...

On the M3 this is a bit different as the V8 NA doesnot generate as much heat as the N54 FI engine.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by formula M

I don't think BMW made any mistakes..!

Yes they do.

The biggest by far is letting 'marketing people' anywhere near ///M.

///M should be staffed with motorsport engineers and petrolheads and be allowed to just just get on with doing what they do best......the products would sell themselves.

All this not treading on the toes of other ///M products is absolute nonsense IMHO.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by marcel b

not sure if it is only that. I can also imagine they do not use the DCT because of cooling issues. I have the DCT on the N54 and the oil temps go up much faster then on a manual 335i. On a 135 or 335 they can live with that, but for a 1M they have for sure different requirements.
The DCT would mean cooling needs to be increased involving additional cost...

On the M3 this is a bit different as the V8 NA doesnot generate as much heat as the N54 FI engine.

That's an interesting point.

I'm still gutted that they arn't doing a DCT option, it's the only thing stopping me putting down a deposit on a 1M.

[Racing Teatray]

Originally Posted by formula M

Lastly, there is no E82 M1.

??

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Woland's Advocate

??

+1

It is definitely coming....where have you been?

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Yes they do.

The biggest by far is letting 'marketing people' anywhere near ///M.

///M should be staffed with motorsport engineers and petrolheads and be allowed to just just get on with doing what they do best......the products would sell themselves.

All this not treading on the toes of other ///M products is absolute nonsense IMHO.

THANK YOU BROTHER!

There is NO REASON why the next M3 can't have 550hp.

There is NO REASON why the 1M can't have 450hp.

Limiting a car's potential just so it doesn't hurt feelings of a more expensive car is stupid in an enthusiast's eyes, but the BMW money management team apparently has a blast creating an unnecessary hierarchy....

If the car is awesome, it will sell. Profit margins are to be made on anything they sell, and if they move more volume with a badass 451HP 1M than a "old" V8 M3 is it really that bad, business wise?

[BrokenVert]

Formula M the S65 was designed for Le mans series homoligation...first seen in the E46 M3 GTR.

It's roots aren't really in F1. When it was designed F1 was still using V10s

But IMO the M Divison should go back to making cars for Motorsport homologation. What series does the M5 or the X6M race in again?

[SlicktopTTZ]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Formula M the S65 was designed for Le mans series homoligation...first seen in the E46 M3 GTR.

It's roots aren't really in F1. When it was designed F1 was still using V10s

The S65 is based off of the S85 V10.....


That doesn't matter anyways, BMW could base it on pudding, they have the engineering capability to build whatever they want.

Proof is in the F1 cars, and also any previous engine they have built.....


I happen to like their 1600RPM redline WW1 aircraft engines and their meth injected (from the factory) WW2 aircraft engines. =P

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

The S65 is based off of the S85 V10.....


That doesn't matter anyways, BMW could base it on pudding, they have the engineering capability to build whatever they want.

Proof is in the F1 cars, and also any previous engine they have built.....

Yeah it's a shorter block but the engine was influenced by road racing because that's what it was implemented as

[SCOTT26]

Yes they do.

The biggest by far is letting 'marketing people' anywhere near ///M.

///M should be staffed with motorsport engineers and petrolheads and be allowed to just just get on with doing what they do best......the products would sell themselves.

All this not treading on the toes of other ///M products is absolute nonsense IMHO.

The problem with this statement is that M has to make money as a business entity. M is staffed with a various amount of engineers and true M afficianados...Same goes for the marketing department.
M engineers do get on with what they do best but in the end of the day fast growing M markets such as China and Russia demanded the X'Ms and as a business in which the cars have increased M profit margins , they had to come because it was a growing profitable segment.

As for the products would sell themselves... That was true years back today the competition has caught up and seek to reinterpret the BMW M image and feeling (of course some dont succeed in the product) but their marketing aims at the premise that this car is influential , powerful and has a character like a BMW through their marketing.
And that is the problem for BMW.

Hence now as we move into future M products with no F1 simularities to back up the marketing it is down to how the product delivers and since it's a BMW M there will not be any problem in that department.
Every BMW M is now marketed to distance itself from the competition to show that what you get is the real thing, something that comes from a rich history not the latest brand invention or re-invention exercise.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

But IMO the M Divison should go back to making cars for Motorsport homologation.

What homologation..?

The manufacturers all got together some years back and persauded the FiA to drop homolgation requirements as it was getting too expensive to build cars to it.....essentially, it's all but ceased.

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

What series does the M5 or the X6M race in again?

Until recently the X5 (with factory backing) had quite a good record in long distance Rally raid events such as the Paris-Dakar, athough, it's largely been replaced on such events by people running X3's which have proved very successful.