Vishnu Flex Fuel

[Kabnine]

So my GSXR1000 is sold as of tomorrow which means money coming back into the 'Toy Slush Fund'.

At this stage my 135i has dci and a procede, with 7" fmic and downpipes ready to go on. I was thinking that my next major purchase will be the flex fuel kit. But first I have questions:

1) Since the Standard DME already targets lambda the backend flash should take care of the fuelling requirements of running whatever fuel is available. So is the procede just using a modified table for timing and boost dependant on what the ethanol content is?

2) How many many points are mapped for boost and timing? Eg boost and timing changes are mapped per 5% change in ethanol. So at e10, e15, e20 etc or is it not that refined?

3) Over in the 335i forum there was a lot of talk about new flex maps but I haven't seen anything eventuate. Are these still being worked on?

4) How much torque can my stock 6mt clutch hold? Will it hold up with my current mods. FBO less meth and on stock turbos.

5) Does Adrian sell these kits yet?

6) Has anyone here tried this out yet?

Thanks
David

[froop]

Originally Posted by Kabnine

So my GSXR1000 is sold as of tomorrow which means money coming back into the 'Toy Slush Fund'.

At this stage my 135i has dci and a procede, with 7" fmic and downpipes ready to go on. I was thinking that my next major purchase will be the flex fuel kit. But first I have questions:

1) Since the Standard DME already targets lambda the backend flash should take care of the fuelling requirements of running whatever fuel is available. So is the procede just using a modified table for timing and boost dependant on what the ethanol content is?

2) How many many points are mapped for boost and timing? Eg boost and timing changes are mapped per 5% change in ethanol. So at e10, e15, e20 etc or is it not that refined?

3) Over in the 335i forum there was a lot of talk about new flex maps but I haven't seen anything eventuate. Are these still being worked on?

4) How much torque can my stock 6mt clutch hold? Will it hold up with my current mods. FBO less meth and on stock turbos.

5) Does Adrian sell these kits yet?

6) Has anyone here tried this out yet?

Thanks
David

I'll take a stab at providing some input on some, not all, of your questions.

1) From what I've read that assumption does sound correct but I'm not 100% sure.

2) I don't know.

3) You'd probably have to ask either Adrian or Shiv for more information. I believe there are beta maps out there but nothing released as of yet.

4) A stock healthy clutch should be fine for anything to do with stock turbos. I'm putting down ~300kW atrw FBO with meth and taking my car to the drag strip and haven't had any issues with clutch slippage yet. It's probably even fine on upgraded hybrids. What it can't hold up to would be strip launches with drag slicks on upgraded hybrids.

5) From the last time I asked him, he does not yet offer these kits but with the introduction of the OFT and the ability to apply the Procede back end flash at home he is thinking about offering the flex fuel upgrade. Whether this includes the LPFP upgrade or not I don't know though.

6) I haven't but I haven't heard of anyone in Australia with this kit yet. Probably due to the fact that prior to the OFT the only way of getting the Procede backend flash was to ship your DME over to Vishnu in the US.

[flinchy]

can the procede even control timing, or does it just control it via CPS offset? (the dodgy way) like the JB4?

... and could you really not properly run a procede over here without mailing your ECU over? you COULDN'T just flash the map with a cobb? that's horrible

[froop]

Originally Posted by flinchy

can the procede even control timing, or does it just control it via CPS offset? (the dodgy way) like the JB4?

... and could you really not properly run a procede over here without mailing your ECU over? you COULDN'T just flash the map with a cobb? that's horrible

I don't think Vishnu ever supported Cobb and therefore never made a Cobb version of their backend flash.

In saying that though, if the Cobb map was available I don't think I'd be comfortable dropping $800 just to do a backend flash... With the OFT and the new open source software I'd definitely consider doing this mod. Although I'd probably want to wait for some better support (i.e. maps).

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by froop

I don't think Vishnu ever supported Cobb and therefore never made a Cobb version of their backend flash.

In saying that though, if the Cobb map was available I don't think I'd be comfortable dropping $800 just to do a backend flash... With the OFT and the new open source software I'd definitely consider doing this mod. Although I'd probably want to wait for some better support (i.e. maps).

huh fair enough.. so a proprietary flashing then?... somehow i doubt that, since they had to go to a lot of effort in making the OFT, he obviously didn't already have the ability to do a proper flash? ... i can't see why he wouldn't have just had his own shop cobb flashing thing to do it, would have been the easiest way for him? otherwise the OFT would have been released without delay years ago if he had that ability?


it's more than just for the backend, you get full timing control, better logging, .. heck, the flash in general is TECHNICALLY superior for most things.. just with the piggy's you get things like meth control, in gear boost limits, and with the procede, flex-fuel.

and you should be able to wrangle a cobb closer to $600, even less used.

there's an advantage to having both a cobb/flash device, and a piggyback tuner

though when you're looking at what.. $800 odd for the procede alone, yeah, it's not such a good prospect... when you're looking at JB4 though, much more reasonable haha

though with the OFT/BBflash now, it's going to be a lot better for the piggy users who weren't willing to drop extra on a cobb (many were though lol)

[Kabnine]

Originally Posted by flinchy

huh fair enough.. so a proprietary flashing then?... somehow i doubt that, since they had to go to a lot of effort in making the OFT, he obviously didn't already have the ability to do a proper flash? ... i can't see why he wouldn't have just had his own shop cobb flashing thing to do it, would have been the easiest way for him? otherwise the OFT would have been released without delay years ago if he had that ability?


it's more than just for the backend, you get full timing control, better logging, .. heck, the flash in general is TECHNICALLY superior for most things.. just with the piggy's you get things like meth control, in gear boost limits, and with the procede, flex-fuel.

and you should be able to wrangle a cobb closer to $600, even less used.

there's an advantage to having both a cobb/flash device, and a piggyback tuner

though when you're looking at what.. $800 odd for the procede alone, yeah, it's not such a good prospect... when you're looking at JB4 though, much more reasonable haha

though with the OFT/BBflash now, it's going to be a lot better for the piggy users who weren't willing to drop extra on a cobb (many were though lol)

From what I have read, the JB4 has limitations when it comes to increasing timing, and doesn't support Flex Fuel. A DME Tune (be it Tablet or BBFlash) in conjunction with a piggy that can integrate meth and flex fuel is the only decent way to do full Flex Fuel. Sure you can just do a DME Tune for E85, but E85 isn't widely available in Qld yet.

There is still a lot of conjecture about the brown substance forming on the end of injectors. Most of the BMW forums talk about it being sugar or some other substance in the fuel, but from what I have seen with the Evo boys, they believe its actually an issue with the re-using of diesel (in particular) tanks to store the E85 and transport the E85 by the fuel companies.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Kabnine

From what I have read, the JB4 has limitations when it comes to increasing timing, and doesn't support Flex Fuel. A DME Tune (be it Tablet or BBFlash) in conjunction with a piggy that can integrate meth and flex fuel is the only decent way to do full Flex Fuel. Sure you can just do a DME Tune for E85, but E85 isn't widely available in Qld yet.

There is still a lot of conjecture about the brown substance forming on the end of injectors. Most of the BMW forums talk about it being sugar or some other substance in the fuel, but from what I have seen with the Evo boys, they believe its actually an issue with the re-using of diesel (in particular) tanks to store the E85 and transport the E85 by the fuel companies.

as far as i understand, both the latest JB4 and the procede do timing in the same way, through CPS offset.. advancing and retarding the crankshaft positioning X%

the only E85 in SEQ is ... crestmead (south BNE).. others being like.. dalby/rocky or something like that haha,.. but there's a ton (3 or 4?) of caltex E70 flex stations around south brisbane.

but considering the N54 HPFP can't handle 100% E85 anyway... >_<

got a link to the brown injectors? i can't find anything on google

would doubt it's 'sugar'.. all other cars running E85 don't have major issues.

it's a pity there's not much in the way of flex-fuel choices ... i can't even find many people using the vishnu one.

[Kabnine]

Originally Posted by flinchy

as far as i understand, both the latest JB4 and the procede do timing in the same way, through CPS offset.. advancing and retarding the crankshaft positioning X%

the only E85 in SEQ is ... crestmead (south BNE).. others being like.. dalby/rocky or something like that haha,.. but there's a ton (3 or 4?) of caltex E70 flex stations around south brisbane.

but considering the N54 HPFP can't handle 100% E85 anyway... >_<

got a link to the brown injectors? i can't find anything on google

would doubt it's 'sugar'.. all other cars running E85 don't have major issues.

it's a pity there's not much in the way of flex-fuel choices ... i can't even find many people using the vishnu one.

We have E85 up here in Rocky, Gladstone and Bundaberg Area, its just if I want to travel out of the area. Not to mention even if I am in Brisbane I may not feel like trying to find a Station with it.

As for the link for the sticky substance, its actually from a post in E90Post, I think. I don't have it to hand. It was an Evo driver who told me about their theory.

My brother just bought an Ethanol sensor and set all of his up himself on his Evo. Can't remember what aftermarket ECU he uses.

I am hoping my HPFP will hold together or at least if it is going to break down, then it throws a code before my warranty period finishes next year.

[JB4-335]

All you need David is a backend flash and you'll be good to go.

The MT will hold up fine.

Originally Posted by flinchy

can the procede even control timing, or does it just control it via CPS offset? (the dodgy way) like the JB4?

... and could you really not properly run a procede over here without mailing your ECU over? you COULDN'T just flash the map with a cobb? that's horrible

I think they both use the same method. CPS is Crank Position Sensor, it tells the ECU where the crank position is so that it can fuel and ignite the correct cylinder in rotation.
CPS in these applications is a module that intercepts the engine CPS signal, before the ECU, so that it can offset that signal as a form of timing control (retardation).

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by JB4135

All you need David is a backend flash and you'll be good to go.

The MT will hold up fine.




I think they both use the same method. CPS is Crank Position Sensor, it tells the ECU where the crank position is so that it can fuel and ignite the correct cylinder in rotation.
CPS in these applications is a module that intercepts the engine CPS signal, before the ECU, so that it can offset that signal as a form of timing control (retardation).

yeah but it doesn't JUST control timing, it changes all sorts of other things in how the engine operates, hence 'dodgy way'

[Nugget]

JB4 works well with different mixes of flex fuel on the auto tuning map.
You can get their backend flash for free as well and load it using the open source flashing method or a Cobb if you have it.

[adrian@vishnu]

JB4 when fitted with CPS option and Procede both use CPS offsetting. Procede can do advance or retard, but JB4 can only do retard. Retard is all that is required for applications with high boost and normal octane fuels. Advance can be useful when running high octane fuels that may benefit from more ignition advance than standard maps provide (E85????).

We have a backend flash we can use with the Procede without sending the ECU anywhere using the OFT.

Flinchy, since you are the expert, can you explain how CPS is dodgy? The benefit of it in the case of flex fuel is it allows the ignition timing to be changed based on the ethanol content which cannot currently be done with any flash solution. Is it not more dodgy to run one timing map for different ethanol contents that you may run? With the Procede we can set the back end flash to run good timing for 98, and then use the Procede to add additional timing/fuel for E85, and have it automatically sense the ethanol content and tune accordingly. This allows you to fill up with whatever fuel is convenient and have the tune handle it automatically.

I have a WRX that runs exclusively on E85. I have gone through many thousands of Litres of the stuff. I recently pulled my injectors for inspection and testing. There was a very small brown build up on the external part of the injector tip. It was outside the spray pattern of the injector and had no effect on performance of the injector. It scraped off with my finger nail. This brown buildup is most commonly thought to be the detergents in the petrol part of the mixture in low concentrations (15% petrol) and reacting with ethanol becoming a like a gel and sticking to things. I have single hole injectors. Some injectors have a multi hole cap that atomises the fuel better. On these injectors the gel seems to build up and stick to the cap and restrict injector flow. My ID1000 injectors (single hole) were fine and full flow with no issues after 3 years and many thousand litres of fuel flowing through them. I would also think that direct injection is very different to port injection and would likely not suffer the same issues from this brown residue.

[Kabnine]

I have asked this question elsewhere on the internet, and I am slowly beginning to understand. One thing that has been mentioned is that there are only two maps, standard and E85, and timing/boost adjustments are done in a linear manner between the two depending on the E%. I know with the fuel component, the adjustment isn't linear, is this not the case with timing?

[adrian@vishnu]

Who told you it was linear?

I wrote the code and I did it sometime ago so cannot recall all without going back to my code which is not with me now, but not all things we change with ethanol content are linear.

The thing with the DMEs we are working with is that the DME has feedback and correction for both fuel and timing. The goal is not to get the fuel/timing to be exact but to get it close enough that the DME's feedback loops can get it where it wants to be without being out of correction range. Note that the Procede also alters the feedback signal for fuelling in order to not just add extra fuel to compensate for fuel density, but to also change the AFR to more suitable for the ethanol content.

I am not going to go into every detail on how our system works for obvious reasons. If you can run a consistent content and quality of fuel then a system like what the Procede offers is of no benefit. But if you are in a position as most people are in Australia, where running a consistent mixture of ethanol means going to the same servo every time at the same level of fuel, and filling at two different pumps, and you find this inconvenient (some are OK with this), then the flex fuel solution offers the convenience to go to any servo and fill with whatever mix is practical and have the engine tune deal this with optimised performance for the fuel in the tank.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

JB4 when fitted with CPS option and Procede both use CPS offsetting. Procede can do advance or retard, but JB4 can only do retard. Retard is all that is required for applications with high boost and normal octane fuels. Advance can be useful when running high octane fuels that may benefit from more ignition advance than standard maps provide (E85????).

We have a backend flash we can use with the Procede without sending the ECU anywhere using the OFT.

Flinchy, since you are the expert, can you explain how CPS is dodgy? The benefit of it in the case of flex fuel is it allows the ignition timing to be changed based on the ethanol content which cannot currently be done with any flash solution. Is it not more dodgy to run one timing map for different ethanol contents that you may run? With the Procede we can set the back end flash to run good timing for 98, and then use the Procede to add additional timing/fuel for E85, and have it automatically sense the ethanol content and tune accordingly. This allows you to fill up with whatever fuel is convenient and have the tune handle it automatically.

I have a WRX that runs exclusively on E85. I have gone through many thousands of Litres of the stuff. I recently pulled my injectors for inspection and testing. There was a very small brown build up on the external part of the injector tip. It was outside the spray pattern of the injector and had no effect on performance of the injector. It scraped off with my finger nail. This brown buildup is most commonly thought to be the detergents in the petrol part of the mixture in low concentrations (15% petrol) and reacting with ethanol becoming a like a gel and sticking to things. I have single hole injectors. Some injectors have a multi hole cap that atomises the fuel better. On these injectors the gel seems to build up and stick to the cap and restrict injector flow. My ID1000 injectors (single hole) were fine and full flow with no issues after 3 years and many thousand litres of fuel flowing through them. I would also think that direct injection is very different to port injection and would likely not suffer the same issues from this brown residue.

Originally Posted by Terry@BMS

The CPS offset is applied globally to the crank position sensor to "fool the dme" to rescale advance, but also effects valve timing, fuel injection timing, etc. So it's sort of a catch-22. You can move it a little but too much causes unintended consequences. The JB4 does it too if enabled and its been discussed to death for years. But needless to say I'm just not a big fan. Switching "timing" between two vastly different maps on the fly though is probably the only thing CPS is really good for at least in theory. But with the right auto tuning strategy I just don't see the benefit in practice.

you COULD use CPS.. or you could just change timing properly in the flash, since it's getting a 'back end' flash anyway? why not do it the better way?

not sure where you're getting the sarcasm from calling me 'an expert' when i'm just writing what i've learnt from other ACTUAL experts in the N54 tuning game....

and considering the N54 still can't quite run 100% E85 for high power anyway due to no HPFP solution, most people will be consistently running some sort of lower blend, as well as probably JUST straight petrol.. a flex fuel sensor setup would be much more amazing were it possible to use it to it's full potential :/

I'm still slightly excited+anticipating the proefi and their flex-fuel option though. expensive but delicious.

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by flinchy

you COULD use CPS.. or you could just change timing properly in the flash, since it's getting a 'back end' flash anyway? why not do it the better way?

not sure where you're getting the sarcasm from calling me 'an expert' when i'm just writing what i've learnt from other ACTUAL experts in the N54 tuning game....

and considering the N54 still can't quite run 100% E85 for high power anyway due to no HPFP solution, most people will be consistently running some sort of lower blend, as well as probably JUST straight petrol.. a flex fuel sensor setup would be much more amazing were it possible to use it to it's full potential :/

I'm still slightly excited+anticipating the proefi and their flex-fuel option though. expensive but delicious.

You should ask your expert if he thinks he is more of an expert on CPS than me.

Can you show me how to make a flash that can "change timing properly in the flash" for varying ethanol content?

Have you ever driven an N54 powered car with a flash or a piggyback?

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Flinchy, since you are the expert, can you explain how CPS is dodgy?

I thought it was because if you alter CPS you also alter VANOS timing, fuel injection timing, and also misfire detection as per


Feel free to correct my if I'm wrong.

I think JB4 is a lot simpler, it infers ethanol content from fuel trims, infers octane from timing trims, gets the tuning in the ballpark and lets the DME handle the rest. It seems to work well for plently of people including myself.

[adrian@vishnu]

Nugget,

In practise, does CPS cause any issues in those areas you mention. Does altering the cam and injection timing by a few degrees cause any issues you are aware of. Years ago CPS may have contributed to missfire detection. Are you aware of the current generation of product causing this issue? I know a lot about engine management (I have written algorithms for cam timing control and injection timing control used in ECUs in race and road cars). Ignition timing movements over 5 degrees make a huge difference, but cam and injection timing movement over 5 degrees is barely detectable. The definition of dodgy you are using here is someone thinking about something that possibly changes and then suggesting it causes problems that nobody has ever experienced.

Finally, can you run 98 fuel in your car and then run E85 without changing any setting on the tune? Does your tune influence ignition timing in any way depending on ethanol content?

I don't debate that your tune works very well for you, but you may be more willing to tinker than some other people that the flex fuel kit is targeted at.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

You should ask your expert if he thinks he is more of an expert on CPS than me.

Can you show me how to make a flash that can "change timing properly in the flash" for varying ethanol content?

Have you ever driven an N54 powered car with a flash or a piggyback?

uhhh i just quoted Terry@BMS... you know.. the guy who made the JB?

and BMW, as above, says it's not something you're meant to mess with too much?

even dzenno @ PTF from memory has gone on record saying he doesn't like CPS.... heck, there's a shitload of discussion on N54tech

i never said can change timing for flex fuel use... it's just being implied that the procede is all you need for timing control full stop, when that's just not true?

and yes i have, why?

>

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Finally, can you run 98 fuel in your car and then run E85 without changing any setting on the tune? Does your tune influence ignition timing in any way depending on ethanol content?

while i haven't ever seen it in use, that's how it's being marketed, yes.

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by flinchy

uhhh i just quoted Terry@BMS... you know.. the guy who made the JB?

You know who made the Procede right? The one that was released well before the JB. The one that Terry copied to make the JB. The one that had CPS 5 years before JB ever had it.

Originally Posted by flinchy

and BMW, as above, says it's not something you're meant to mess with too much?

and what do BMW say about flash tuning... or a dual cone intake... or a sports exhaust?

Originally Posted by flinchy

even dzenno @ PTF from memory has gone on record saying he doesn't like CPS.... heck, there's a shitload of discussion on N54tech

So it must be true then......

Originally Posted by flinchy

i never said can change timing for flex fuel use... it's just being implied that the procede is all you need for timing control full stop, when that's just not true?

Actually that is your claim.... not ours. We suggest a back end flash and fuel system mods for very high ethanol content if running high boost. For otherwise stock cars running moderate boost, it is fine on its own.

Originally Posted by flinchy

and yes i have, why?

Details.... have you owned a running N54 engine. Who's N54 have you driven?

You come across as some guy locked up in his bedroom with a laptop on forums learning from the internet (among other things) and then sprouting forth with all the knowledge you have, when you have never actually been involved in the real world with anything you provide knowledge on... yet you want to argue with people who actually work on this stuff.

Originally Posted by flinchy

while i haven't ever seen it in use, that's how it's being marketed, yes.

And that is pretty much the story with everything you like to provide an opinion on... you have never seen it in use, but you read about it so your going to tell everyone on the forum what you think of it despite having no real idea about it.

Can we just agree that this thread is about the Vishnu Flex fuel kit that you know nothing about, and hence cannot really add any value to the thread. Any value you attempt to add is just regurgitated from another forum from other people who have also never used this kit and only know what Vishnu have released to the public, and they have guessed about it..... meanwhile I am here offering value as the person who developed the kit??!!

[Nugget]

OK

[JB4-335]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

You know who made the Procede right?

Haltech