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      02-14-2010, 02:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
davemohan,

Sorry to hear it was not really "plug and play". Did you get them installed? How do you think they sound?

Jim
Jury's still out, although BSW won't be getting any positive marks on customer service.

Still no installation instructions anywhere (as of 5 minutes ago). Obviously not a show stopper in this case since I got the fronts installed using te BMW TIS manual, but no way to do business. In my initial contact after receiving the speakers I was told that a "tech" would be "getting the instructions to you".

The guy you get when you phone or email doesn't seem to have much of an idea what he's talking about. Kept insisting that the issue was that the instructions weren't available, even after I emailed a photo of the incompatible plugs between rear tweeters and mids. Now tells me the replacements were to be "dropped shipped direct from manufacturer" (sic). He "assumes" they have already been shipped.

I did get a call from a "tech" in Ca., who instantly acknowledged that I had been sent the wrong midranges and said replacements would be sent and that I would have them "this week". (Which is now last week.) He was going to call me "later today or maybe tomorrow morning". Never heard from him again.

Hard to say just how good they sound as the rear speakers are still stock. Fade them out and the "presentation" is all wrong (I really don't believe in "staging" in a car.) Leave them balanced and there is an improvement, but the rears color the sound.

I would just cut and splice the wires, but there was a difference in the surrounds between the "front" and "side" speakers I received, so there may be some differences in the mids intended for the rear that go beyond the wiring and plugs. So. at this point, still waiting. And I can't get it out of my head that these are the same guys who have repeatedly said that the 1 series speakers were "2 months away" at least since November 2008. But I have faith my new rears mids are "in the mail".

I honestly think these are going to sound pretty good from initial impressions. I'll write up impressions on the product when I can, including "where I'm coming from" for those interested in that. But even if the BSWs were the best thing out there (they're good, but not that good), if you can't get a set delivered and installed in a reliable manner it ain't worth jack.

Last edited by davemohan; 02-14-2010 at 02:25 PM..
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      02-14-2010, 06:28 PM   #24
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Thanks for the updates davemohan

Your unfortunate experience may be useful to convertible owners because the BSW Stage 1 setup for ragtops only includes the door speakers. I was looking forward to this release, but the lack of a complete set has me questioning how they will sound. I guess we can wait and see if there is a Stage 2 or just look elsewhere.
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      02-14-2010, 07:01 PM   #25
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davemohan,

Is there anything recognizable as a crossover? The BSW speakers are about the price of fairly inexpensive component speakers I've seen elsewhere but the others seem to have fairly sophisiticated crossovers. The illustrations on the BSW website show the drivers clearly but no crossovers. BMW only has a capacitor, if I understand things correctly. The capacitor can protect the tweeter to some degree but even a really simple crossover would add an inductor to block high frequencies from the woofer. And sharper filters use more devices.

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      02-15-2010, 09:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
davemohan,

Is there anything recognizable as a crossover? The BSW speakers are about the price of fairly inexpensive component speakers I've seen elsewhere but the others seem to have fairly sophisticated crossovers. The illustrations on the BSW website show the drivers clearly but no crossovers. BMW only has a capacitor, if I understand things correctly. The capacitor can protect the tweeter to some degree but even a really simple crossover would add an inductor to block high frequencies from the woofer. And sharper filters use more devices.

Jim
Just an in-line capacitor acting as a high pass to the tweeter. The "mechanical crossover" seems to work pretty well in this case as the midranges fall off pretty rapidly in the high range and, although I have no idea what the effective frequency or rate of the cutoff to the tweeters is, there seems to be little overlap. There is no discernible high frequency "bump" like you sometimes see in this type of setup.

I'm a firm believer in "less is more" in sound reproduction, so, for me, if a simple circuit like this does the job, so much the better. The more sophisticated the crossover, the more it is affecting the signal, so it better be necessary. And if it is so very necessary, why weren't the drivers designed to work together better? On the other hand, a car interior is a pretty tough sonic environment.

And again, I can't stress enough that my impressions are preliminary as I don't yet have the rear speakers in.
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      02-15-2010, 11:25 AM   #27
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never heard anything good about BSW...but anything is an improvement over stock. Not sure why they are wasting money on replacing the rear speakers, maybe its a marketing thing. good luck with the install.
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      02-15-2010, 12:53 PM   #28
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davemohan,

I agree that cross overs phase shift the signal and are better done at the pre-amp stage than in the power circuit. But doing that requires well matched components. My home speakers have no crossover because the tweeters are pezio. Their impedence is high enough they can just be wired in parallel with the woofer and the impedence stays essentially the same as the woofers. I had to carefully select the woofer and use a special piezio that would reproduce lower than normal to make this work, however. Perhaps BSW has matched things well too.

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      02-15-2010, 03:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mineo77 View Post
Not sure why they are wasting money on replacing the rear speakers, maybe its a marketing thing.
Not sure why I feel compelled to answer this, but I do.

If the rear speakers are at the same level as the front when measured at the driver's ear, as is typical when the fader is set to "0", you are obviously going to hear the output from both sets of speakers at the same level. Whichever speaker sounds worse is going to color the sound.

If you fade out the rear speakers you can eliminate this, but there are 2 problems. Usually, if only due to "enclosure" size, the rears put out more bass and this is part of the overall balance of the sound. So the fronts alone will be very "breathy" at best, maybe even a little tinny sounding.

Second, you are going to exacerbate the "headphone effect" of having the right and left speakers essentially on either side of your head. The output of the rear speakers fills in some of the empty space perception between the fronts for a more full sound presentation. (The fronts do the same for the rears if you are sitting in the back seat, although you still have a "the band's behind me!" effect.

So, basically, in a car you are going to want working rear speakers and they need to be sonically matched to the front speakers for the whole thing to sound "right".

On the other hand, if you're looking for 120 db and thumping bass that irritates the neighbors a block away, none of this really matters.
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      02-15-2010, 06:01 PM   #30
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First of all, Dave, I want to sincerely apologize for your experience. We're not perfect -- but this is definitely a real screw-up.

Our assembly center in Chicago mixed up some drivers in the initial production run and you unfortunately received components that were obviously mismatched and NOT the right parts for your car -- or for each other. Have you had any further contact from anyone at BSW regarding the exchange? If not, please contact me via email at mdc AT bavsound.com so I can make sure this gets resolved quickly and correctly.

As for the "no one knows what they're talking about" experience you've had -- it's a new product and the guys don't understand what's what just yet, but this shouldn't be an issue moving forward. Not an excuse -- there's no excuse for poor service -- but wanted you to know what is going on.

Also, just so you're aware, product is never shipped directly from our assembly center to customers. I can't for the life of me tell you why, but our guys can't ever seem to wrap their heads around this.

In any case, you were probably misinformed in terms of timing on the replacement speakers. What we are going to do is send you a complete new set once we receive corrected versions at our distribution center and you'll send back the wrong stuff. I expect this to take around 2 weeks since all the first run of kits were affected by the same issue you've experienced and we are waiting on the correct parts at the moment (hence the backorder on on our site and continued discount pricing). It's going to depend on when we receive the corrected kits.

I do apologize for the lack of instructions. We intended to have them ready at product launch but they've been a bit delayed. Here they are:



As for other questions asked:

- There are no crossovers, only an in line capacitor to protect the tweeter. This is because we designed the midrange to have a very smooth roll off. Less parts yields the advantages already discussed and it's part of why the system sounds so great.

- Rear speakers are important because in these lower power systems with the factory amp, you really need all the drivers to generate enough volume. We are not replacing the rear speakers in Convertible applications because they are extremely shallow, requiring a specific driver. Due to the small number we would be manufacturing, there's no way to deliver the kit at a price we feel the market would bear -- so they are left out. It's not ideal, but it still offers an improvement for those that want one, and at a very affordable price.

- For the record, these kits ARE fully plug and play, Dave just got a bad kit.

Last edited by Micah D. Cranman; 02-15-2010 at 06:01 PM.. Reason: Instruction link correction
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      02-15-2010, 06:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zivyn View Post
Were you the guy with the one series that BSW gave a FREE set of speakers to in exchange for an "unbiased review" up on the forums? Because that kinda gives the air of it being a paid endoresment, at least a little bit.

Now if you tell me that you handed them several hundred dollars before you wrote the review I will retract my statement.
He received a Stage 1 in return for access to, and use of, his car -- a review was requested but optional on his part. He decided to write because of his experience, not because he was obliged to do so. Furthermore, we asked for an HONEST opinion -- not fluff or anything he didn't feel was 100% accurate.
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      02-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #32
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WOW - 1 good followup - but honest it shouldn't have happened.. I was keeping my eye on this for upgrading my 135, but I think I will wait a bit until ALL QA steps are in place.

With the time it took to bring this to market - I'm just a little shocked...

Best of luck with the product but, I'll keep my mine stock for now.
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      02-15-2010, 06:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan77 View Post
Still no answer from the OP about what his base stereo option was when he purchased the car. This thread is worthless without said information.
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      02-15-2010, 06:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135iUSN View Post
WOW - 1 good followup - but honest it shouldn't have happened.. I was keeping my eye on this for upgrading my 135, but I think I will wait a bit until ALL QA steps are in place.

With the time it took to bring this to market - I'm just a little shocked...

Best of luck with the product but, I'll keep my mine stock for now.
To be honest, we are LIVID. Our assembly center screwed it up, plain and simple. No excuses, no QC issues -- they just read our instructions incorrectly and pulled the wrong parts.

Fortunately, it's a very simple mistake, one that is corrected. This is the FIRST time it's ever happened in THOUSANDS of kits shipped from that center.

Also, the QC processes we go through are absolutely astounding:
  • 100% QC completed before leaving factory
  • Remove drivers from packaging when received from factory
  • Run drivers through battery of tests for 100% AGAIN
  • Install appropriate connectors
  • Run drivers through QC process AGAIN
  • Repackage
We do 100% QC three times -- unheard of. Just the wrong drivers got thrown in the kit this time. Mistakes happen.

In any case, feel free to order at any time. I'd suggest you do quickly as we are dropping the discounted price when they come off backorder, and corrected 1 Series Stage 1 kits are in build up or en route to our distribution center in NY as we speak. Just need to check in with the assembly center to see where we're at.
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      02-15-2010, 07:35 PM   #35
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Micah,

Your installation video was great until it got to the 13:50 point and then it won't go further. Might be my computer or something but it may be another bug to fix.

The new 4 inch has a much different magnet structure than the BMW one you took out. Usually that is a good indication of a better speaker.

Jim
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      02-15-2010, 07:52 PM   #36
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yep same here - locked my system up
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      02-15-2010, 08:34 PM   #37
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Hmmmm, weird -- I'm not seeing any issues and I've watched it through multiple times. May be a Vimeo thing. Can you guys try restarting your computers or using a different browser.

Yes -- the magnets are different, and our drivers are a big improvement.
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      02-15-2010, 10:05 PM   #38
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I'm sorry but I just dont see how there can be such an improvement in sound quality and increased volume using the pitiful stock amp with its embarrasing Wattage. Any decent system would have to up the amp!

I would like to hear more about these speakers. Materials used? Where made and by whom? RMS #'s, power range,freq response,sensitivity......
I searched the website but really cant find any important details.Most quality speaker makers give this information. Im hesitant to tear apart a new $40K+ car to install components of questionable quality.

Last edited by NYC6; 02-15-2010 at 10:17 PM..
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      02-16-2010, 12:04 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davemohan View Post
Not sure why I feel compelled to answer this, but I do.

If the rear speakers are at the same level as the front when measured at the driver's ear, as is typical when the fader is set to "0", you are obviously going to hear the output from both sets of speakers at the same level. Whichever speaker sounds worse is going to color the sound.

If you fade out the rear speakers you can eliminate this, but there are 2 problems. Usually, if only due to "enclosure" size, the rears put out more bass and this is part of the overall balance of the sound. So the fronts alone will be very "breathy" at best, maybe even a little tinny sounding.

Second, you are going to exacerbate the "headphone effect" of having the right and left speakers essentially on either side of your head. The output of the rear speakers fills in some of the empty space perception between the fronts for a more full sound presentation. (The fronts do the same for the rears if you are sitting in the back seat, although you still have a "the band's behind me!" effect.

So, basically, in a car you are going to want working rear speakers and they need to be sonically matched to the front speakers for the whole thing to sound "right".

On the other hand, if you're looking for 120 db and thumping bass that irritates the neighbors a block away, none of this really matters.

completely disagree with this logic. secondly if you look at the signals being sent to our rears on a graph (refer to VP Electricity analysis) you will see all the bass / mid bass has been eliminated from the rears. If you properly tune your system using fronts and underseat you do not get the "headphone" sound.

I dont think anybody else on this forum knows as much as VP Electricity esp about our cars:
"My recommendation for every single system I advise on, customer or not, is to leave the rears alone until you have the best front speaker setup you can afford.

Rear speakers do NOT help with sound quality. They can help with volume, if they're bigger than 4", and they can help us feel like there are rear speakers, which some people have an attachment to. But they do NOT help with sound quality. "What's the point" is pretty much how everyone should feel about rear speakers IMO. (All comments about "I like the surround sound effect", "what about rear passengers", etc, we need to have a separate conversation. Rear speakers in and of themselves do NOT create a surround sound effect, your CDs and MP3s do NOT have surround-sound information, and few setups are capable of creating a useful rear ambiance channel. And if you are cruising with rear passengers in your 1-series with the stereo playing, you don't like them anyway...: )

So DON'T spend money on rear speakers or rear amp channels until you have everything else as good as you will get it.

Your plan of running the 5-channel amp to the F mid/tweeter, the F midbass, and the sub is a good plan. What I would recommend most of the time is that you leave the rear speakers in place on deck power, but fade the rear speakers out entirely on the HU.

But don't take my word for it. Take your system as it sits and run the fader all the way to the F, and run it that way for a week. Give it the full week. Notice what you hear differently after a few days. Let me know. "

but sound is very individual..so if you like rears and are on a budget then go for it. Just not for me.
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      02-16-2010, 08:55 AM   #40
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Well running mac w/snow leopard and firefox. Left the ctl alt del world years ago. LOL. I'll try at home tonight unlesssss. Let me see if this works on my iPhone. (evil grin)
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      02-16-2010, 09:26 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mineo77 View Post
completely disagree with this logic. secondly if you look at the signals being sent to our rears on a graph (refer to VP Electricity analysis) you will see all the bass / mid bass has been eliminated from the rears. If you properly tune your system using fronts and underseat you do not get the "headphone" sound.

I dont think anybody else on this forum knows as much as VP Electricity esp about our cars:
"My recommendation for every single system I advise on, customer or not, is to leave the rears alone until you have the best front speaker setup you can afford.

Rear speakers do NOT help with sound quality. They can help with volume, if they're bigger than 4", and they can help us feel like there are rear speakers, which some people have an attachment to. But they do NOT help with sound quality. "What's the point" is pretty much how everyone should feel about rear speakers IMO. (All comments about "I like the surround sound effect", "what about rear passengers", etc, we need to have a separate conversation. Rear speakers in and of themselves do NOT create a surround sound effect, your CDs and MP3s do NOT have surround-sound information, and few setups are capable of creating a useful rear ambiance channel. And if you are cruising with rear passengers in your 1-series with the stereo playing, you don't like them anyway...: )

So DON'T spend money on rear speakers or rear amp channels until you have everything else as good as you will get it.

Your plan of running the 5-channel amp to the F mid/tweeter, the F midbass, and the sub is a good plan. What I would recommend most of the time is that you leave the rear speakers in place on deck power, but fade the rear speakers out entirely on the HU.

But don't take my word for it. Take your system as it sits and run the fader all the way to the F, and run it that way for a week. Give it the full week. Notice what you hear differently after a few days. Let me know. "

but sound is very individual..so if you like rears and are on a budget then go for it. Just not for me.
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      02-16-2010, 09:31 AM   #42
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Umm loads ok bit get icon that it cant play. Boo
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      02-16-2010, 11:10 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
I'm sorry but I just dont see how there can be such an improvement in sound quality and increased volume using the pitiful stock amp with its embarrasing Wattage. Any decent system would have to up the amp!

I would like to hear more about these speakers. Materials used? Where made and by whom? RMS #'s, power range,freq response,sensitivity......
I searched the website but really cant find any important details.Most quality speaker makers give this information. Im hesitant to tear apart a new $40K+ car to install components of questionable quality.
It's the same reason why throwing a great set of summer tires on a 530i makes it a pretty great performer in a lot of ways. Yes, there are some shortcomings that remain (i.e. power, suspension to some extent) but the foundation for excellent performance was already there but being held back by crappy tires.

In audio, a great set of drivers optimized for the audio system can have the same effect. Is it as potent as upgrading the amp, too? No, of course not, but it's still a significant upgrade.

As for who makes our drivers, we work with a number of contract manufacturers in Asia, many of whom manufacture high end home audio equipment. The drivers are woven fiberglass curvilinear cones with santoprene surrounds and a bottomless suspension design.

Unfortunately, as for specs, we don't release them at this time. Why not? There are several reasons:

1. We have made a very large investment in terms of time and money to establish the optimum characteristics for the components we use in our speaker upgrades. To protect that investment and prevent "copycat" products, we keep the associated information proprietary.

2. Because our speaker upgrades are optimized to operate on the factory amplifier (or in some cases, an amplifier we are designing to replace the stock amplifier), the specifications are not required by end users since we've already done all the hard work of optimizing the components to work perfectly together and there is only one operating environment in which our products will be used.

3. Specifications are not meaningful for comparison between our products and other products which may be used in the same application, primarily because, in general, specifications in the car audio world are more or less fabricated from thin air. Repeated testing has shown time and time again that the performance and behavior of components we test does NOT bear a strong relationship to what we'd expect given the specifications of a product.

Ultimately, you're not "tearing apart" your car to install our products. That's the whole idea. If you want to go back to stock, you can. "Questionable" quality is, frankly, laughable. Look around and you'll see we have a stellar reputation for quality products with excellent performance. They're not for everyone, but we make great product.
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      02-16-2010, 12:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman View Post
1. We have made a very large investment in terms of time and money to establish the optimum characteristics for the components we use in our speaker upgrades. To protect that investment and prevent "copycat" products, we keep the associated information proprietary.

2. Because our speaker upgrades are optimized to operate on the factory amplifier (or in some cases, an amplifier we are designing to replace the stock amplifier), the specifications are not required by end users since we've already done all the hard work of optimizing the components to work perfectly together and there is only one operating environment in which our products will be used.

3. Specifications are not meaningful for comparison between our products and other products which may be used in the same application, primarily because, in general, specifications in the car audio world are more or less fabricated from thin air. Repeated testing has shown time and time again that the performance and behavior of components we test does NOT bear a strong relationship to what we'd expect given the specifications of a product.

Ultimately, you're not "tearing apart" your car to install our products. That's the whole idea. If you want to go back to stock, you can. "Questionable" quality is, frankly, laughable. Look around and you'll see we have a stellar reputation for quality products with excellent performance. They're not for everyone, but we make great product.
well hundreds of aftermarket brands would disagree with you on that
specs speak louder than "reviews"
only brand i know of that refuses to print specs is Bose
and i think we can all agree that their sound quality sucks

and giving your specs does not give away your secrets
if i know your speakers are rated to 60 watts RMS
or that their frequency response is 70-23000hz
it does not give me the info i need to make imitation speakers

just like knowing our cars engine output and engine size etc
doesn't mean competing brands can make engine as good
would you buy a car if you did not know the horsepower?top speed? fuel consumption? options etc?
if i simply told you, this car will do everything you need, but i can't tell you more
you'd think i was crazy
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