BBK for a 128i

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

That's real nice, StG, but that's the rear wheel...

Here's a shot of the 1M's front wheel with it's big 14.2" rotor....a 13" rotor would look small, and the 11" 128i rotor would look pitiful.

You really can't be this dense right?

CSL

As in the CSL variant of the E46 M3. A car that is noticeably faster around the track than any of the cars mentioned in this thread, and easily the most focused and competent car BMW has made in years. A car that uses 13.5" rotors under a 19" wheel.

And no, that is the front wheel. I really have to know how you decided that the front bumper fender line was some how the rear of the car. Or that they are running a 225 on the rear of an E46 M3.

[Kgolf31]

I'm real sure BMWs line of thinking was "We must make the rotor look like it is filling the whole wheel, forget about performance"

Oh, and Z4Ms are cooler because they use ZCP/CSL Rotors on a 18" wheel

[Blacksport]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

You really can't be this dense right?

CSL

As in the CSL variant of the E46 M3. A car that is noticeably faster around the track than any of the cars mentioned in this thread, and easily the most focused and competent car BMW has made in years. A car that uses 13.5" rotors under a 19" wheel.

And no, that is the front wheel. I really have to know how you decided that the front bumper fender line was some how the rear of the car. Or that they are running a 225 on the rear of an E46 M3.

Wow, you dug up that dinosaur to prove your point? Only 1400 of those were made, none for the US market...BMW did everything they could to keep the car light as possible...no insulation, a thin rear window, etc. Ten years ago, maybe that was the biggest brake set they had. If that car was built today, it would have the M3 brakes. Oh, and you're wrong again, as usual...a 1M will beat that old-timer around the track... add 'em up: more torque, 10 year newer suspension with many aluminum components, the 1M is still lighter and smaller, and, last but not least: bigger brakes.

BTW, it's the caliper that tells me that's a rear brake. Of course, being 10 years old, I could be wrong...BMW always lagged in brake technology, maybe those are mousy little front calipers...if BMW really wanted to build a light, fast car, why would they use cast-iron calipers, when aluminum caliper would save some serious un-sprung weight??

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

Wow, you dug up that dinosaur to prove your point? Only 1400 of those were made, none for the US market...BMW did everything they could to keep the car light as possible...no insulation, a thin rear window, etc. Ten years ago, maybe that was the biggest brake set they had. If that car was built today, it would have the M3 brakes. Oh, and you're wrong again, as usual...a 1M will beat that old-timer around the track... add 'em up: more torque, 10 year newer suspension with many aluminum components, the 1M is still lighter and smaller, and, last but not least: bigger brakes.

BTW, it's the caliper that tells me that's a rear brake. Of course, being 10 years old, I could be wrong...BMW always lagged in brake technology, maybe those are mousy little front calipers...if BMW really wanted to build a light, fast car, why would they use cast-iron calipers, when aluminum caliper would save some serious un-sprung weight??

Cough...well.

A BMW Z4M Coupe did beat the 1M Coupe on the Nurburgring. With old, outdated brakes, naturally aspirated power, and no stupid electronics.

8:12 - BMW Z4M Coupe
8:15 - BMW 1 Series M Coupe

Oh...and that BMW CSL we are talking about?

7:50 - BMW M3 CSL



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times


LOL. I love this.

[pj.rodriguez]

LoL. Glad I could start a debate through a simple question. lmfao.

[Blacksport]

LOL, I said that to piss off StG...yes, I'm well aware how fast the CSL was, even with it's mouse brakes...the big surprise is that Z4M coupe....like I've said before, that is a bad-ass little machine....hmmm, a guy is bugging me for my M roadster, I think I'm going to let it go...I know exactly what car I'm going to replace it with...

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

LOL, I said that to piss off StG...yes, I'm well aware how fast the CSL was, even with it's mouse brakes...the big surprise is that Z4M coupe....like I've said before, that is a bad-ass little machine....hmmm, a guy is bugging me for my M roadster, I think I'm going to let it go...I know exactly what car I'm going to replace it with...

You made yourself look like an idiot in attempt to piss me off?

You really have no idea how to push my buttons if you think making yourself the laughing stock of this thread is the best way to do it.

Oh, and FYI the CSL is significantly lighter.

[Blacksport]

Kgolf,

Give me your opinion of this:

2007 Z4M, black/tan, 22k miles, car is flawless, no track days or autocross, OZ Ultraleggeria's, asking $31...High, low, or good price? Stock brakes but I'll fix that....

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

I'm not going to argue with you, Kgolf, but just a couple of points: the BMW/Brembo BBK is heavier than the stock 128 setup: who cares? Yes, moment-of-inertia and gyroscopic effect have changed a little, but you won't feel it; but you'll definitely feel the better brakes.

"You will not stop any faster"? Think of it this way: you push the brake pedal firmly, but not activating the anti-lock, let's say the pressure on the brake line is 1000psi...that pressure has an EASIER time stopping a 13" rotor than an 11" rotor...it's simple physics...

I'm going to try to dumb this down for you, as you seem to need it:
a) ABS engages when the brake caliper fully locks the wheel. That's it's function.
b) Could you engage ABS with the stock brakes?
Hint: every BMW sold in the last 30 years can, even with R comps on.
c) If so: the brake system has sufficient braking torque (your favorite ) to maximize the grip of the tire in a braking event.

Making it easier to lock the wheel will not shorten your stopping distances. The grip available is the limiting factor of braking in all semi recent cars (last 30 years at least for BMW).

Which is not to say I'm against BBK's-- I have a BBK on my M5, street M3, and M3 race car. Real BBKs, too-- not the BMW performance kit with cracking pistons when driven hard and not truly floating rotors. I'm just realistic about what their benefits are. Namely, increased heat capacity, decreased unsprung/rotating mass, longer pad life, and better pedal feel.

[Blacksport]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'm going to try to dumb this down for you, as you seem to need it:
a) ABS engages when the brake caliper fully locks the wheel. That's it's function.
b) Could you engage ABS with the stock brakes?
Hint: every BMW sold in the last 30 years can, even with R comps on.
c) If so: the brake system has sufficient braking torque (your favorite ) to maximize the grip of the tire in a braking event.

Making it easier to lock the wheel will not shorten your stopping distances. The grip available is the limiting factor of braking in all semi recent cars (last 30 years at least for BMW).

Which is not to say I'm against BBK's-- I have a BBK on my M5, street M3, and M3 race car. Real BBKs, too-- not the BMW performance kit with cracking pistons when driven hard and not truly floating rotors. I'm just realistic about what their benefits are. Namely, increased heat capacity, decreased unsprung/rotating mass, longer pad life, and better pedal feel.

Well, thank you Obiodan, for "dumbing" that down for me, but then, after a rather long and boring speech, you pointed out two things I've been saying all along:
"Making it easier to lock the wheel" Just because you've added bigger brakes doesn't mean you lock the wheels with every brake application. Especially when you've replaced crappy run-flats with max-performance summer tires.
"Better pedal feel" That's it! You got it! Better pedal feel....what I've been saying all along....they feel better...

My favorite part of your dissertation is where you point out all your cars have big brakes...can't argue with that!

[Dafttt]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

Well, thank you Obiodan, for "dumbing" that down for me, but then, after a rather long and boring speech, you pointed out two things I've been saying all along:
"Making it easier to lock the wheel" Just because you've added bigger brakes doesn't mean you lock the wheels with every brake application. Especially when you've replaced crappy run-flats with max-performance summer tires.
"Better pedal feel" That's it! You got it! Better pedal feel....what I've been saying all along....they feel better...

My favorite part of your dissertation is where you point out all your cars have big brakes...can't argue with that!

Are you related to Robert Bellateros? Aka RobbyB1M?

You should really listen to Obioban, he knows what he's talking about. Same with St|g.
Source: Go to M3forums.net and search his name.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

Well, thank you Obiodan, for "dumbing" that down for me, but then, after a rather long and boring speech, you pointed out two things I've been saying all along:
"Making it easier to lock the wheel" Just because you've added bigger brakes doesn't mean you lock the wheels with every brake application. Especially when you've replaced crappy run-flats with max-performance summer tires.
"Better pedal feel" That's it! You got it! Better pedal feel....what I've been saying all along....they feel better...

My favorite part of your dissertation is where you point out all your cars have big brakes...can't argue with that!

I've had no problem engaging ABS with fully heated up Hoosier R6's on stock brakes... so I'd like to think ABSing a street tire shouldn't be too challenging

"Feel" isn't even slightly what you were arguing. Remember when you were trying to cite stopping distances as evidence? Yeah, that has nothing to do with feel. Feel is like electronic power steering vs hydraulic power steering-- how well the car conveys what's occurring to the driver.

You could also improve feel with solid guide pins and stainless lines, if that's all that's important to you, btw.

[Blacksport]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I've had no problem engaging ABS with fully heated up Hoosier R6's on stock brakes... so I'd like to think ABSing a street tire shouldn't be too challenging

"Feel" isn't even slightly what you were arguing. Remember when you were trying to cite stopping distances as evidence? Yeah, that has nothing to do with feel. Feel is like electronic power steering vs hydraulic power steering-- how well the car conveys what's occurring to the driver.

You could also improve feel with solid guide pins and stainless lines, if that's all that's important to you, btw.

You're right, I was arguing stopping distance, but because ABS takes over at near wheel lock-up, stopping distances are only slightly better. I should have been arguing feel all along...when I drove the new 128 home a few month ago, I immediately did not like the brakes...even though the pads weren't seated yet, I didn't feel the "drag" or "friction" I wanted to feel, especially with a lite touch on the brakes...now that the big brakes are on and seated, the difference is very satisfying...and I'm not talking about slamming them at 75mph and letting the electronics take over, I'm talking about a lite touch with just your big toe slowing down for a traffic light...that's where you notice the difference.

I have no experience racing with ABS...in the early 80's, our RX-7 IMSA car did not have ABS, although it was becoming more popular by the minute. I remember talking to Sam Posey at Daytona around 1979 or 80, he was telling Mike and I how the brake pedal on the CSL would pulse as it kept the wheels from locking...he ranted on how confident he felt with it, especially in the rain. We realized that it would be impossible to compete with that kind of advantage, although a few years later, we finished 6th overall and 1st in GTU at Sebring, beating all the BMW's...only one finished, an old 2002 that was fast and sturdy as hell.

Thought I'd throw in this photo of the car on Mazda's bragging poster...it was also in the centerfold of Mazda's RX-7 sales brochure in like '84 or '85. You can see the brake ducts on the front air dam are closed off...we think the only time we did that was Daytona one year when it was freezing cold, that's apparently when the photo was taken. The carbon rotors and pucks need some heat before they'll bite. You can barely see the fans on the BBS wheels, they of course suck air from under the car and cool the brakes...

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

Kgolf,

Give me your opinion of this:

2007 Z4M, black/tan, 22k miles, car is flawless, no track days or autocross, OZ Ultraleggeria's, asking $31...High, low, or good price? Stock brakes but I'll fix that....

Not terrible, but the price could use some work. It is certainly a decent price to start at though, below average. It is really hard to keep track of the price on these cars. Like the 1M, they like to fluctuate in price. I caught mine right at the bottom of the price dip...

Usually the car value dips in the winter, mostly because people need to move the car to avoid storage.

I bought mine (07 w/22k miles on it) for 29k shipped via trailer. This was 3 years ago.

If you factor in the wheels, it could be a decent price...although modifications don't increase car value...IMO

[Blacksport]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Not terrible, but the price could use some work. It is certainly a decent price to start at though, below average. It is really hard to keep track of the price on these cars. Like the 1M, they like to fluctuate in price. I caught mine right at the bottom of the price dip...

Usually the car value dips in the winter, mostly because people need to move the car to avoid storage.

I bought mine (07 w/22k miles on it) for 29k shipped via trailer. This was 3 years ago.

If you factor in the wheels, it could be a decent price...although modifications don't increase car value...IMO

Thanks, the guy is sending me more photos and a video...I have a new respect for these...faster than the 1M, half the price...plus I love the S54.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

Thanks, the guy is sending me more photos and a video...I have a new respect for these...faster than the 1M, half the price...plus I love the S54.

And the most rigid chassis BMW has ever made

Completely different driving style than a 1M, very easy to get on the power early and let the car track out...since you sit so far back on the rear wheels you can feel everything the car is doing.

Good luck, keep me updated.

Not as rare as a 1M, but rare enough

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Blacksport

You're right, I was arguing stopping distance, but because ABS takes over at near wheel lock-up, stopping distances are only slightly better. I should have been arguing feel all along...when I drove the new 128 home a few month ago, I immediately did not like the brakes...even though the pads weren't seated yet, I didn't feel the "drag" or "friction" I wanted to feel, especially with a lite touch on the brakes...now that the big brakes are on and seated, the difference is very satisfying...and I'm not talking about slamming them at 75mph and letting the electronics take over, I'm talking about a lite touch with just your big toe slowing down for a traffic light...that's where you notice the difference.

I have no experience racing with ABS...in the early 80's, our RX-7 IMSA car did not have ABS, although it was becoming more popular by the minute. I remember talking to Sam Posey at Daytona around 1979 or 80, he was telling Mike and I how the brake pedal on the CSL would pulse as it kept the wheels from locking...he ranted on how confident he felt with it, especially in the rain. We realized that it would be impossible to compete with that kind of advantage, although a few years later, we finished 6th overall and 1st in GTU at Sebring, beating all the BMW's...only one finished, an old 2002 that was fast and sturdy as hell.

Thought I'd throw in this photo of the car on Mazda's bragging poster...it was also in the centerfold of Mazda's RX-7 sales brochure in like '84 or '85. You can see the brake ducts on the front air dam are closed off...we think the only time we did that was Daytona one year when it was freezing cold, that's apparently when the photo was taken. The carbon rotors and pucks need some heat before they'll bite. You can barely see the fans on the BBS wheels, they of course suck air from under the car and cool the brakes...

My point on the ABS was not that you want to engage it, but that if you can there's nothing to be gained by more braking torque. The ABS on our race car is on a switch, and 99% of the time is in the off position.

Judging pad feel with unbedded pads is completely, 100% useless-- with a BBK or stock. So, what you're really saying is... you have absolutely no idea how the 128i brakes actually feel. Would be like judging carbon brakes by how they feel when cold-- they must suck!