Planned Audio Install / Minor HK upgrade / Open to suggestions

tracer bullet · 04-29-2015, 07:07 PM

Greetings, figured I'd go over some changes I'm planning to make, let folks have a shot at changing my mind and see if I'm missing anything.

I've got a 2011 135i, it came with the HK (Logic 7) system. I'm primarily adding a little extra bass to it, I tend to listen to a lot of electronic music and feel that the HK system is quite good overall but rolling off a little by 80Hz and almost nonexistant by 50Hz or so. Since I'm going through the work, I wanted to future-proof it a little bit and be able to leave this stuff in place should I decide to swap out the door and / or underseat mid speakers (hence the 5 channel amp and ability to run LOC on multiple channels).

Planned components are:

Technic's adapter for the HK system - This will allow me to not have to cut any factory wires, though I will need to do some work on this harness myself to pull off additional speaker level signals as well as route them back into the system later, which I am comfortable with
Audio Control LC6i multi-channel LOC - Similar to the 2-channel LC2i but just more channels, allowing me to pull the door speaker channels and the under-seat mid channels separately
JL XD700/5V2 5-channel Amplifier - for front door speakers, underseat mids, and new sub (rear shelf speakers will stay on the HK amp)
Sub and enclosure from MusicarNW - sub TBD based on what they recommend for my music tastes + sized for their enclosure.

I'm planning to have the front door speaker outputs from the factory HK amp go into the LC6i, then the JL amp ch 1&2 (high pass output i.e. 200Hz), and off to those speakers. The underseat mid channels will go into the LC6i as well, which will output them into 2 pairs - one going to to the JL ch 3&4 (high pass output again but set much lower i.e. 80Hz), the other pair going to the new sub itself (JL 5&6, low pass this time, perhaps also set ~ 80Hz).

Crossover points TBD but I am open to recommendations. Amp gains will be set low as possible, with individual channels brought up only as needed to balance it out. I know the HK system is pre-equalized but I'm OK with that for now. LC6i should fit under the cover for the trunk area, up near the rear seats where there's an empty spot, JL amp should easily fit left of the battery. I should be able to fab some simple mounting brackets for both. If I can borrow a scope from work I can run some sine waves and check for distortion to set the LC6i.

I am open to input / questions! I've just ordered the harness from Technic and am ready to pull the trigger on the rest.

Adam135 · 04-30-2015, 12:08 AM

Coming from a 12" JL sub, I'm very happy with the two under seat subs - tons of bass with the spacer and JL amp.

My setup:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653972

tracer bullet · 04-30-2015, 08:31 AM

Right, thanks. I've read your thread a few times, it would come up when I was searching to see who used AudioControl equipment.

I went back and forth a few times between just swapping (and amping) the underseat mids vs. going to a dedicated sub. I think the main reasons against a dedicated sub are primarily it taking space / not looking stock, and secondary perhaps the additional equipment and cost. Given that I really don't use my trunk for much and that MusicarNW's enclosure looks so darned good, the primary reason against it isn't a concern for me. As for the cost, while I am budget conscious, it seems that compared to swapping the underseat speakers (which can get a bit costly), the dedicated sub doesn't really cost too much more.

In the end I think that just swapping the underseat mids and amping them would definitely be an improvement, but for just a little more cost (and space used up which I don't mind), a dedicated sub will somewhat guarantee I add / significantly boost the lowest octave or two that I'm looking for.

Any chance you happen to remember how they set the ground jumper on the EQS? One of my few concerns is ending up with a ground loop I have to deal with. Glad to hear yours is whine-free.

tracer bullet · 04-30-2015, 09:30 PM

Well either it's a solid plan or more likely TL, DR. I tend to do that.

tracer bullet · 05-05-2015, 11:36 PM

Was up late tonight and getting online to pull the trigger on these components, and decided to read up just one last time when I saw that Technic mentioned elsewhere that my LOC converter choice wasn't strictly needed, that E82 HK system voltage output was on the order of ~ 16V peak vs. the ~30V I'd led myself to believe.

I guess I'm on the hunt again, seem to be a few options.

* Run HK output straight to the JL amp
* Economical LOC option (2 of them), i.e. David Navone's: http://davidnavone.com/product/n-rhl...put-converter/
* Go with an LC6i or LCQ-1 at extra expense with little gain

I liked that the LCQ-1 had some sub equalization not present in the head unit, that it was active and I assume better at passing signal through it for the front speakers (vs. just low frequencies through which I'd be less concerned about), and of course handled more than a single pair of channels.

On the other hand, if I don't need it I don't need it. It doesn't seem to hurt anything to have it, but I may be better off putting those funds elsewhere, i.e. replacing the door speakers ahead of schedule.

Technic · 05-06-2015, 06:52 AM

For HK OEM amp upgrades, the suggestion is to completely remove the OEM amp. The use of LOC with the OEM amp to add amplifiers to power other than the woofers is by far not the best solution as the HK OEM amp changes its EQ and volume with speed. In addition, if you listen closely to the HK OEM amp audio outputs you should notice what I call a "muffling" of the music, like music is always passing thru cloth before reaching the speakers.

Amplifying that high level signal will obviously will amplify all those HK OEM amp artifacts.

Thus these suggestions: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...69&postcount=1

tracer bullet · 05-06-2015, 10:36 AM

That makes total and complete sense. I guess what I'm up against is a budget - I'd love to put a Mobridge in there, a better amp and replace all the speakers, do it all "correctly", but can't go that far right now. My goals at the moment are to 1) improve the bass and 2) make changes that can be used in the future if / when I am able to carry out more of a system swap-out.

It feels like my best approach might be dialing this back a bit - adding an LC2i (or other LOC - please feel free to recommend one) into a 3 channel amp (i.e. JL), running bandpass to the underseat mids with it and the 3rd channel into a MusicarNW sub enclosure. Then at a later date perhaps swapping the front door speakers (Bavsound, Focus, Morel, TBD) and letting them continue to run off the stock HK amp as they do now. Assuming there won't be an drastic speaker impedance changes or I'm back into the 5 channel configuration again. Either way, at that point I'd need to call this quits because going further would require replacing a huge chunk of it once again.

I was trying to future proof a bit w/ the 5 channel setup. I know a Mobridge DA2 or similar would eliminate any LOC's put in place, but given the Mobridge cost I just don't see that happening and so I'm looking to do the best I can w/out one.

Looks like I should start reading up on recoding to HiFi, the car is out of warranty and perhaps it's not as bad as I'm thinking.

tracer bullet · 05-08-2015, 09:03 AM

Got hold of Ken today at MusicarNW and made an order! The current plan, in case it gives ideas to anyone else:

"Full Bass Upgrade"
* Technic's harness (I think, but perhaps not)
* JL XD500/3 v2 amp
* Enclosure and sub

This will take the signal from the underseat mids and amplify it, returning it to them with more power and also bandpassed to take some stress off them and not have them totally overlap the new sub. That's channels 1&2 from the amp. The 3rd channel for the sub will of course deliver low pass to the sub.

If I feel the need for improvement at a later date, the next thing to happen is to replace the existing HK amp with something like a Mobridge DA2 that will turn the MOST signal into something useable by the amplifiers. Instead of swapping the existing amp with a bigger one, which I didn't want to hassle with, a new one would be added. Something 2 or 4 channel, depending on if I want to keep the rear speakers or not. Front door speakers would be changed at that time as well.

In the end I get the bass upgrade now, and future changes can be done easily - new equipment would be added, nothing aside from the harness would need to be replaced.

Also, FWIW, with the JL amps v2 versions being able to handle higher input voltages, *no LOC is needed*. I don't know about other stereo levels or amp manufacturers, but E82 + HK system + JL XDv2 amps = can handle the input directly.

Win!

tracer bullet · 06-15-2015, 04:09 PM

Installed this kit from MusicarNW. Thoughts / opinions / notes are as follows:

* The V2 version of the JL amp can handle the factory level speaker signals from the HK amp. More specifically it has handled them for now, I suppose time will tell, but it's not readily apparent as an issue. I like Audio Control but I'm glad to have found I didn't need an LOC.

* My kit didn't come with the bolts to hold the amp bracket in place, but a trip to the hardware store solved that. The adhesive on the back of the fuse holder wasn't there either, but I had something similar on hand already. I'd still give the kit a 99% awesomeness rating, everything else was there and looked outstanding. Even how they wrapped the wires and small things like that looked professional and stock-like in appearance. I know I could have DIY'd it but this did save time and I am betting looks better too.

* Their price is the same or less than piecing it together, if you are wondering about it just go for the kit, it's worth it.

* If you have ever installed a stereo or have any aptitude for cars in general, you can easily do this. Just go slow and take your time. No unusual tools are needed, nothing freaky presents itself as a problem along the way. Pull a laptop into your garage and just follow the Youtube video. It's got a lot of great hints too.

* You will definitely want a panel puller. I own a cheap plastic set and it was plenty. I managed to not break any clips along the way which is a first, largely due to watching their video. Local parts stores often have this near the bondo and such.

* If I were to offer a tip, it would be to reassemble the panels slowly, keep an eye out for where all of the clips are to make sure you have them in place and can remember where they go. You'll survive either way but a little extra time here will make it all go back together perfectly.

* I deviated from the plan in one way - in the video, the wires from the factory amp towards the trunk were put between the sheet metal of the car and the grommet, I believe. I instead cut a spot open out of the grommet with a razor blade (be darn careful not to slice your finger open, I didn't have a problem but it's a definite danger). There's sort of a natural area to cut under where the factory wires go through, and you can route the new stuff and have it surrounded by thick rubber. If you have the grommet in your hand this will make sense.

* Amp gains are currently set pretty low, not even 1/4 turn above minimum, and things are already outrunning the front speakers on the factory amp and more than loud enough for not just daily listening but also at points above what's comfortable for more than a few seconds it's still going strong. Power output is definitely not a concern.

* Doing some back to back listening and messing with the setup and crossover, etc. I believe (choosing my words carefully) that the factory underseat woofers are indeed slightly better off with a bandpass configuration like this. That said, it's not a huge difference. If I had to do it all again I'd probably just amp the sub and leave the underseats alone. I have no regrets, but it's not a huge deal as the factory system does a good job of protecting itself and not bottoming out / distorting.

* It was totally worth it, the factory system's got great bass for factory, but turning it up (Listening to Massive Attack - Mezzanine this morning) now unquestionably brings out notes that were simply not there prior to this upgrade.

Yeah, I am wordy, but hopefully this all helps someone out someday.

04-29-2015, 07:07 PM	#1
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Planned Audio Install / Minor HK upgrade / Open to suggestions Greetings, figured I'd go over some changes I'm planning to make, let folks have a shot at changing my mind and see if I'm missing anything. I've got a 2011 135i, it came with the HK (Logic 7) system. I'm primarily adding a little extra bass to it, I tend to listen to a lot of electronic music and feel that the HK system is quite good overall but rolling off a little by 80Hz and almost nonexistant by 50Hz or so. Since I'm going through the work, I wanted to future-proof it a little bit and be able to leave this stuff in place should I decide to swap out the door and / or underseat mid speakers (hence the 5 channel amp and ability to run LOC on multiple channels). Planned components are: Technic's adapter for the HK system - This will allow me to not have to cut any factory wires, though I will need to do some work on this harness myself to pull off additional speaker level signals as well as route them back into the system later, which I am comfortable with Audio Control LC6i multi-channel LOC - Similar to the 2-channel LC2i but just more channels, allowing me to pull the door speaker channels and the under-seat mid channels separately JL XD700/5V2 5-channel Amplifier - for front door speakers, underseat mids, and new sub (rear shelf speakers will stay on the HK amp) Sub and enclosure from MusicarNW - sub TBD based on what they recommend for my music tastes + sized for their enclosure. I'm planning to have the front door speaker outputs from the factory HK amp go into the LC6i, then the JL amp ch 1&2 (high pass output i.e. 200Hz), and off to those speakers. The underseat mid channels will go into the LC6i as well, which will output them into 2 pairs - one going to to the JL ch 3&4 (high pass output again but set much lower i.e. 80Hz), the other pair going to the new sub itself (JL 5&6, low pass this time, perhaps also set ~ 80Hz). Crossover points TBD but I am open to recommendations. Amp gains will be set low as possible, with individual channels brought up only as needed to balance it out. I know the HK system is pre-equalized but I'm OK with that for now. LC6i should fit under the cover for the trunk area, up near the rear seats where there's an empty spot, JL amp should easily fit left of the battery. I should be able to fab some simple mounting brackets for both. If I can borrow a scope from work I can run some sine waves and check for distortion to set the LC6i. I am open to input / questions! I've just ordered the harness from Technic and am ready to pull the trigger on the rest. Last edited by tracer bullet; 04-29-2015 at 07:14 PM..
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04-30-2015, 12:08 AM	#2
Adam135 Captain 75 Rep 961 Posts Drives: 2014 435i Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: USA iTrader: (2)	Coming from a 12" JL sub, I'm very happy with the two under seat subs - tons of bass with the spacer and JL amp. My setup: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=653972
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04-30-2015, 08:31 AM	#3
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Right, thanks. I've read your thread a few times, it would come up when I was searching to see who used AudioControl equipment. I went back and forth a few times between just swapping (and amping) the underseat mids vs. going to a dedicated sub. I think the main reasons against a dedicated sub are primarily it taking space / not looking stock, and secondary perhaps the additional equipment and cost. Given that I really don't use my trunk for much and that MusicarNW's enclosure looks so darned good, the primary reason against it isn't a concern for me. As for the cost, while I am budget conscious, it seems that compared to swapping the underseat speakers (which can get a bit costly), the dedicated sub doesn't really cost too much more. In the end I think that just swapping the underseat mids and amping them would definitely be an improvement, but for just a little more cost (and space used up which I don't mind), a dedicated sub will somewhat guarantee I add / significantly boost the lowest octave or two that I'm looking for. Any chance you happen to remember how they set the ground jumper on the EQS? One of my few concerns is ending up with a ground loop I have to deal with. Glad to hear yours is whine-free.
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04-30-2015, 09:30 PM	#4
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Well either it's a solid plan or more likely TL, DR. I tend to do that.
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05-05-2015, 11:36 PM	#5
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Was up late tonight and getting online to pull the trigger on these components, and decided to read up just one last time when I saw that Technic mentioned elsewhere that my LOC converter choice wasn't strictly needed, that E82 HK system voltage output was on the order of ~ 16V peak vs. the ~30V I'd led myself to believe. I guess I'm on the hunt again, seem to be a few options. * Run HK output straight to the JL amp * Economical LOC option (2 of them), i.e. David Navone's: http://davidnavone.com/product/n-rhl...put-converter/ * Go with an LC6i or LCQ-1 at extra expense with little gain I liked that the LCQ-1 had some sub equalization not present in the head unit, that it was active and I assume better at passing signal through it for the front speakers (vs. just low frequencies through which I'd be less concerned about), and of course handled more than a single pair of channels. On the other hand, if I don't need it I don't need it. It doesn't seem to hurt anything to have it, but I may be better off putting those funds elsewhere, i.e. replacing the door speakers ahead of schedule. Last edited by tracer bullet; 05-06-2015 at 12:27 AM..
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05-06-2015, 06:52 AM	#6
Technic Lieutenant General 2287 Rep 12,999 Posts Drives: 2021 i3S, 2024 i4 M50 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Florida iTrader: (18)	For HK OEM amp upgrades, the suggestion is to completely remove the OEM amp. The use of LOC with the OEM amp to add amplifiers to power other than the woofers is by far not the best solution as the HK OEM amp changes its EQ and volume with speed. In addition, if you listen closely to the HK OEM amp audio outputs you should notice what I call a "muffling" of the music, like music is always passing thru cloth before reaching the speakers. Amplifying that high level signal will obviously will amplify all those HK OEM amp artifacts. Thus these suggestions: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...69&postcount=1
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05-06-2015, 10:36 AM	#7
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	That makes total and complete sense. I guess what I'm up against is a budget - I'd love to put a Mobridge in there, a better amp and replace all the speakers, do it all "correctly", but can't go that far right now. My goals at the moment are to 1) improve the bass and 2) make changes that can be used in the future if / when I am able to carry out more of a system swap-out. It feels like my best approach might be dialing this back a bit - adding an LC2i (or other LOC - please feel free to recommend one) into a 3 channel amp (i.e. JL), running bandpass to the underseat mids with it and the 3rd channel into a MusicarNW sub enclosure. Then at a later date perhaps swapping the front door speakers (Bavsound, Focus, Morel, TBD) and letting them continue to run off the stock HK amp as they do now. Assuming there won't be an drastic speaker impedance changes or I'm back into the 5 channel configuration again. Either way, at that point I'd need to call this quits because going further would require replacing a huge chunk of it once again. I was trying to future proof a bit w/ the 5 channel setup. I know a Mobridge DA2 or similar would eliminate any LOC's put in place, but given the Mobridge cost I just don't see that happening and so I'm looking to do the best I can w/out one. Looks like I should start reading up on recoding to HiFi, the car is out of warranty and perhaps it's not as bad as I'm thinking. Last edited by tracer bullet; 05-06-2015 at 11:00 AM..
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05-08-2015, 09:03 AM	#8
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Got hold of Ken today at MusicarNW and made an order! The current plan, in case it gives ideas to anyone else: "Full Bass Upgrade" * Technic's harness (I think, but perhaps not) * JL XD500/3 v2 amp * Enclosure and sub This will take the signal from the underseat mids and amplify it, returning it to them with more power and also bandpassed to take some stress off them and not have them totally overlap the new sub. That's channels 1&2 from the amp. The 3rd channel for the sub will of course deliver low pass to the sub. If I feel the need for improvement at a later date, the next thing to happen is to replace the existing HK amp with something like a Mobridge DA2 that will turn the MOST signal into something useable by the amplifiers. Instead of swapping the existing amp with a bigger one, which I didn't want to hassle with, a new one would be added. Something 2 or 4 channel, depending on if I want to keep the rear speakers or not. Front door speakers would be changed at that time as well. In the end I get the bass upgrade now, and future changes can be done easily - new equipment would be added, nothing aside from the harness would need to be replaced. Also, FWIW, with the JL amps v2 versions being able to handle higher input voltages, no LOC is needed. I don't know about other stereo levels or amp manufacturers, but E82 + HK system + JL XDv2 amps = can handle the input directly. Win! Last edited by tracer bullet; 05-08-2015 at 04:33 PM..
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06-15-2015, 04:09 PM	#9
tracer bullet Brigadier General 2410 Rep 3,547 Posts Drives: '11 135i , '15 X3 35i Join Date: May 2011 Location: Saint Paul, MN iTrader: (1)	Installed this kit from MusicarNW. Thoughts / opinions / notes are as follows: * The V2 version of the JL amp can handle the factory level speaker signals from the HK amp. More specifically it has handled them for now, I suppose time will tell, but it's not readily apparent as an issue. I like Audio Control but I'm glad to have found I didn't need an LOC. * My kit didn't come with the bolts to hold the amp bracket in place, but a trip to the hardware store solved that. The adhesive on the back of the fuse holder wasn't there either, but I had something similar on hand already. I'd still give the kit a 99% awesomeness rating, everything else was there and looked outstanding. Even how they wrapped the wires and small things like that looked professional and stock-like in appearance. I know I could have DIY'd it but this did save time and I am betting looks better too. * Their price is the same or less than piecing it together, if you are wondering about it just go for the kit, it's worth it. * If you have ever installed a stereo or have any aptitude for cars in general, you can easily do this. Just go slow and take your time. No unusual tools are needed, nothing freaky presents itself as a problem along the way. Pull a laptop into your garage and just follow the Youtube video. It's got a lot of great hints too. * You will definitely want a panel puller. I own a cheap plastic set and it was plenty. I managed to not break any clips along the way which is a first, largely due to watching their video. Local parts stores often have this near the bondo and such. * If I were to offer a tip, it would be to reassemble the panels slowly, keep an eye out for where all of the clips are to make sure you have them in place and can remember where they go. You'll survive either way but a little extra time here will make it all go back together perfectly. * I deviated from the plan in one way - in the video, the wires from the factory amp towards the trunk were put between the sheet metal of the car and the grommet, I believe. I instead cut a spot open out of the grommet with a razor blade (be darn careful not to slice your finger open, I didn't have a problem but it's a definite danger). There's sort of a natural area to cut under where the factory wires go through, and you can route the new stuff and have it surrounded by thick rubber. If you have the grommet in your hand this will make sense. * Amp gains are currently set pretty low, not even 1/4 turn above minimum, and things are already outrunning the front speakers on the factory amp and more than loud enough for not just daily listening but also at points above what's comfortable for more than a few seconds it's still going strong. Power output is definitely not a concern. * Doing some back to back listening and messing with the setup and crossover, etc. I believe (choosing my words carefully) that the factory underseat woofers are indeed slightly better off with a bandpass configuration like this. That said, it's not a huge difference. If I had to do it all again I'd probably just amp the sub and leave the underseats alone. I have no regrets, but it's not a huge deal as the factory system does a good job of protecting itself and not bottoming out / distorting. * It was totally worth it, the factory system's got great bass for factory, but turning it up (Listening to Massive Attack - Mezzanine this morning) now unquestionably brings out notes that were simply not there prior to this upgrade. Yeah, I am wordy, but hopefully this all helps someone out someday.
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