[scottz5]

ANYONES FIXED?

[jrct9454]

I'll keep saying this, because this area of the car business [tires/wheels] is one I know something about:

The factory doesn't make balancing mistakes. When the car leaves the factory, the tire/wheel assembly is balanced, and probably round enough to pass a road-force test of 5 lbs or less.

But the run-flats feature a much stiffer carcass, and the materials that make it stiff [nylon, and other polyesters like nylon] are also prone to overnight flat-spotting much more than standard radials. [I used to avoid all Pirellis because they liked to use more nylon in their standard radials than just about everybody - Michelin has been the most flexible and resistant to these problems in my experience - but it does depend on the actual model of the tire.]

If you drive relatively short distances, and the tires never really get warmed up, the tires soon simply aren't round enough for this car, and might never get that way again unless you take it on a long freeway run at high speeds. You don't just have one flat spot, you have more than one on any given tire.

As I've mentioned, there are tricks for solving this problem, but most people don't have the time or inclination to do anything about it. Putting a flat-spotted tire on a balancing machine is actually a waste of time - it will be wrong again as soon as the tire is driven enough to warm it up. When chasing this kind of problem, you have to get the car up off the ground pretty much within 10-15 minutes of arriving at the service facility, and only then after driving at least 10-15 miles at freeway speeds. This is all beyond most owners, and I'm sorry to say, most service people as well.

I have just about crossed the E90 off my list over this issue. I am so sensitive to this problem that I have always jacked up our car[s] at all four corners when it is put away for the night whenever we are at home. I first started using this trick with an early '90s Toyota Cressida that had no tolerance for wheel/tire irregularities, and have used it ever since. We often don't drive our car for days at a time [retired], and this procedure takes about 3 minutes when we put the car away, and maybe 2 minutes when we are ready to go and take it off the jacks.

Anyway, balance is extremely unlikely to be a problem, but trying to rebalance a tire that has flat-spots is actually a waste of time - the mass of the tire will change every time it is driven at high speed, and thus it will be subtly out of balance unless it was round and straight before being put on the machine.

Please keep us informed, all of you trying to deal with this problem. I want to see how both the dealers and BMW respond. I think BMW [like MB in the early '90s] has made a poor choice of tires for our market, which does not feature a lot of really high speed running, but more medium speed suburban stop and go, followed by long periods sitting still. NO runflats out there, except the Michelin PAX system, are good for this kind of use. And BMW chose to ignore the Michelin alternative, because of course it is more expensive.

[spydrz]

JRCT-if you know that this will bother you, then stay far away from this car. I absolutely hate to drive it because of the steering wheel shaking in my hands. It's not a little issue, like a simple dislike of the sunroof not working with the car off. It's a daily, driveability issue that makes me wish I'd never gotten this thing. :mad:

[breton]

Originally Posted by nexus66

Kinda related to balancing, but did you guys know that the "dot" painted on new tyres is supposed to be mounted in line with the valve - as the tyres are balance checked by the manufacturer and they paint the dot. Tyres mounted this way invariably need less balance weights added. Never seen a new car with tyres correctly mounted this way though - not even my new e90!

My understanding about the painted dots is slightly different. The wheel and tire suppliers (to OEMs) are required to apply the dot to the heavy side of their component. Then when the tires and wheels are mounted (presumably at the factory), the dots should be on opposite ends, providing the best opportunity to cancel each other out, and requiring the minimum added weight to achieve balance.

It's a shame tire manufacturers don't do this (to my knowledge) for the aftermarket, because its very easy to check the balance of a wheel by itself, but not a tire, and many enthusiasts would appreciate the approach in the aftermarket.


-Peter

[BellasBmw]

Im picking my car up today from the dealer. They told me they werent able to find any shimmy, so it may have been random. They did fix my alignment... So i hope the shimmy was a result of the road or something??... Anyway atleast my cars back and the alignment is fixed

[redthree]

I also experienced slight front-end shimmy (at about 55 mph on smooth surface) on my new (300 miles) 3 Series. I called my salesman who told me that their tire balancer was broken and to take it to Discount Tires and they would re-balance the tires for free. I did as suggested and picked the car up an hour or so later and the problem was resolved. I just hope any future issues can and will be handled as quickly and easily.

redthree

[onesixeight]

Originally Posted by scottz5

My car is really bad at speeds between 45-55 now.

I think we should send this link to BMWNA and also the spring sound from the seatbelts link.

These two things are driving me nuts.

Let me get this right. NO ONE THAT HAS BROUGHT THEIR CAR IN FOR SERVICE HAS HAD THIS PROBLEM FIXED, RIGHT?

Sounds like it is more then a balance issue.

The tech was able to duplicate the problem and rebalanced the wheels. Car feels a better, but you can still feel a little shimmy on certain smooth roads at around 40-50 mph.

I spoke to my tech about the seat belt sound and he said it might be coming from the door seals. He said that the X3 has this same problem.

[scottz5]

Originally Posted by onesixeight

The tech was able to duplicate the problem and rebalanced the wheels. Car feels a better, but you can still feel a little shimmy on certain smooth roads at around 40-50 mph.

I spoke to my tech about the seat belt sound and he said it might be coming from the door seals. He said that the X3 has this same problem.

If I keep pushing my seatbeat adjuster it stops making the nosie.

[scottz5]

[QUOTE=onesixeight]The tech was able to duplicate the problem and rebalanced the wheels. Car feels a better, but you can still feel a little shimmy on certain smooth roads at around 40-50 mph.
QUOTE]

So it does feel better! I guess I will bring it in.

[Execution]

With my 19's ... absolutely no shimmy's! The vehicle feels like a rock! This shimmy problem might have something to do with those run flats.




Execution

[nexus66]

Originally Posted by plenoach

My understanding about the painted dots is slightly different. The wheel and tire suppliers (to OEMs) are required to apply the dot to the heavy side of their component. Then when the tires and wheels are mounted (presumably at the factory), the dots should be on opposite ends, providing the best opportunity to cancel each other out, and requiring the minimum added weight to achieve balance.

It's a shame tire manufacturers don't do this (to my knowledge) for the aftermarket, because its very easy to check the balance of a wheel by itself, but not a tire, and many enthusiasts would appreciate the approach in the aftermarket.


-Peter

Wonder if it depends on the valve that's fitted? If the valve was heavier than the amount of weight removed to make the "hole" then I'd agree with you, if the valve was lighter then it's make sense to put the heavy bit of the tyre beside the valve to compensate. Metal valves vs rubber valves! We could both be right!

But I agree that it's sad that either way, it's not something that's done on a regular basis!

[smithex]

"I'll keep saying this, because this area of the car business [tires/wheels] is one I know something about:

The factory doesn't make balancing mistakes. When the car leaves the factory, the tire/wheel assembly is balanced, and probably round enough to pass a road-force test of 5 lbs or less.

But the run-flats feature a much stiffer carcass, and the materials that make it stiff [nylon, and other polyesters like nylon] are also prone to overnight flat-spotting much more than standard radials. [I used to avoid all Pirellis because they liked to use more nylon in their standard radials than just about everybody - Michelin has been the most flexible and resistant to these problems in my experience - but it does depend on the actual model of the tire.]

If you drive relatively short distances, and the tires never really get warmed up, the tires soon simply aren't round enough for this car, and might never get that way again unless you take it on a long freeway run at high speeds. You don't just have one flat spot, you have more than one on any given tire.

As I've mentioned, there are tricks for solving this problem, but most people don't have the time or inclination to do anything about it. Putting a flat-spotted tire on a balancing machine is actually a waste of time - it will be wrong again as soon as the tire is driven enough to warm it up. When chasing this kind of problem, you have to get the car up off the ground pretty much within 10-15 minutes of arriving at the service facility, and only then after driving at least 10-15 miles at freeway speeds. This is all beyond most owners, and I'm sorry to say, most service people as well.

I have just about crossed the E90 off my list over this issue. I am so sensitive to this problem that I have always jacked up our car[s] at all four corners when it is put away for the night whenever we are at home. I first started using this trick with an early '90s Toyota Cressida that had no tolerance for wheel/tire irregularities, and have used it ever since. We often don't drive our car for days at a time [retired], and this procedure takes about 3 minutes when we put the car away, and maybe 2 minutes when we are ready to go and take it off the jacks.

Anyway, balance is extremely unlikely to be a problem, but trying to rebalance a tire that has flat-spots is actually a waste of time - the mass of the tire will change every time it is driven at high speed, and thus it will be subtly out of balance unless it was round and straight before being put on the machine.

Please keep us informed, all of you trying to deal with this problem. I want to see how both the dealers and BMW respond. I think BMW [like MB in the early '90s] has made a poor choice of tires for our market, which does not feature a lot of really high speed running, but more medium speed suburban stop and go, followed by long periods sitting still. NO runflats out there, except the Michelin PAX system, are good for this kind of use. And BMW chose to ignore the Michelin alternative, because of course it is more expensive."

This sounds very likely because Wednesday I picked up my 325 with sport package, the car had been sitting for about 2 weeks, and at 50~+ mph I had a slight shimmy, after some high speeds on the Autobahn it went away!

[jrct9454]

Yep.....this is what I've been saying.

The run-flats are going to be VERY sensitive to flat-spotting - before rushing off to get the tires rebalanced [and probably screwing them up in the process], take the car up to 70-80 mph for at least 20-30 minutes and see if the mid-speed shaking hasn't mysteriously cured itself [this problem, when it happens, will be most readily apparent at 45-60 mph].

If you must visit the balancing machine, make sure the tires are warm and the car gets on the lift immediately upon coming off the highway. If it sits even as much as 30 minutes, a road-force balancer is going to show flat-spots, and attempts to compensate for that are going to make matters worse.

I don't think it's any accident that our poster above with 19" [pretty extreme] CONVENTIONAL tires is experiencing a butter-smooth ride. I think my first move upon buying this car would be to remove the run-flats, and carry a compressor [which I do anyway] and hope for the best. Fact is, out in the boonies, the run-flats aren't going to be any better than a conventional tire in terms of how much help you're going to need, and trying to find a tire dealer in Bumfingers [or name your favorite garden spot] that can handle run-flats is next to impossible.

So, my view continues to be....this was a really dismal decision on the part of BMW to force this technology on its customers. Right up there with the early I-Drive baloney foisted on unsuspecting 7ers.

[jrct9454]

As for those mysterious dots:

One denotes the highest point on the tire, which is designed to be matched with the lowest point on the wheel. Not very meaningful for a good alloy, but very much so for a steel wheel.

Look at a Camry or Corolla when they come off the transporter from the factory with steel wheels, before they put on the wheel covers - there are little yellow stickers that denote the spot on the wheel that is supposed to be aligned with the dot [usually red or white] that denotes the tire's high spot.

The other type of dot is indeed designed to be aligned with the valve stem - but the type of valve is meaningless, because the wheel/tire assembly is balanced after the valve is installed and the tire is inflated, so the weight of the valve is compensated for in the balancing process. The idea is to minimize the amount of weight needed - that's all.

For alloy wheels, a good tire mounter will pay most attention to the valve location; for steel wheels, assuming the wheel still has some kind of notation of its low spot, the most important thing is to align this with the high-spot dot on the tire. Why? TO MINIMIZE THE SHAKES - the very problem we've been talking about here.

With the equipment currently available to any solvent tire shop these days, anybody who can fog a mirror can be trained to correctly balance a tire/wheel. The tricky part is dealing with runout - tires/wheels that are not perfectly round, or perfectly straight. A wheel/tire with lateral runout [whobble] is generally hopeless beyond a mm or so; vertical runout [lack of roundness] can be treated by rotating the tire on the wheel, or throwing it away in favor of another tire. Flat-spotting is an example of vertical runout.

[spydrz]

Originally Posted by jrct9454

take the car up to 70-80 mph for at least 20-30 minutes and see if the mid-speed shaking hasn't mysteriously cured itself [this problem, when it happens, will be most readily apparent at 45-60 mph].

I've done this, (even almost 100 miles) and upon slowing down to the 45-60 speed, it shakes...
So does that mean there's an actual problem then?

[jrct9454]

Spydrz:

Yes, in your case, it sounds to me that you have a genuine tire problem - one of them is out of balance, or more likely, came from the factory out-of-round and the only thing for it is to replace it.

Here's what I would do, though it requires your active involvement and persistence:

-Make an appointment
-Insist that the car be put on a lift immediately upon your arrival
-Run the car at high speeds as much as possible before arriving
-Ask the tech to SHOW YOU ON THE ROAD-FORCE BALANCING MACHINE how much variance there is with each tire. I would reject any tire/wheel with more than 5-8 lbs of road force. [Frankly, with BMWs being so sensitive, I'm not sure even 5 lbs is a low enough figure - there is some of this that is intuitive - and a really noticeable flat or high spot should be easy to see when the tire is rotated on the machine.]
-They can try rotating the tire on the rim and re-balancing it to see if the road force is reduced. Otherwise, it is tire replacement time.

[spydrz]

Originally Posted by jrct9454

Spydrz:

Yes, in your case, it sounds to me that you have a genuine tire problem - one of them is out of balance, or more likely, came from the factory out-of-round and the only thing for it is to replace it.

Here's what I would do, though it requires your active involvement and persistence:

-Make an appointment
-Insist that the car be put on a lift immediately upon your arrival
-Run the car at high speeds as much as possible before arriving
-Ask the tech to SHOW YOU ON THE ROAD-FORCE BALANCING MACHINE how much variance there is with each tire. I would reject any tire/wheel with more than 5-8 lbs of road force.
-They can try rotating the tire on the rim and re-balancing it to see if the road force is reduced. Otherwise, it is tire replacement time.

Thanks!
I have an appointment for Monday all lined up.

[jrct9454]

I've gotten in the habit of demanding to see the tech doing the work and having a very focused conversation on what I want to know, and the approach he/she is going to take. As I said, on this topic, if I could afford to invest in a road-force balancer and had a place to put it in my garage, I would be doing this myself - it is that easy if you know what you're looking for.

[BellasBmw]

Ive been driving around today (just got my car back yesterday). I noticed that the alignment is much better, but it still tends to the right, but i think thats the street, cause before it was much more obvious. The shimmy stopped, but then again, it never really started. It happened spontaeously, so of course they werent able to duplicate it. I asked one of the service guys about the tire pressure, he didnt know what i was talking about, so i figured screw it, ill deal with it later.

[prolix21]

i'm at almost 200 miles and i've not felt any sort of vibration or anything. i have a 330i sport.

one thing i have noticed a couple times is that if i'm on the highway and really hit the gas the car seems to pull all over the place. now i haven't tried to purposly duplicate it yet, i will test more this weekend, but it really freaks me out. no vibration at all, the car just seems to lose composure. it could be the roads, but it's definitely an uneasy feeling. anyone have anything similar? if it is teh car and i can duplicate i would assume it's allignment. i'm also going to check my tire pressure asap.

[Vegas Steve]

Just posted this in another thread but here it is again. My car had an alignment pull and shimmy in the steering wheel. Dealer had the car five days. They ended up replacing all the wheels and tires and realigning the car with new specs from BMW. The alignment is dead on now. The shimmy is now only very slightly noticable. I think like most other posters are experiencing, between 45-60mph. The dealer knows this and wants me to bring it back in about 1000 miles to rebalance the tires. The head mechanic thinks the suspension and tires are stiff and needs to be broken in a bit.

[scottz5]

I am going to the dealer on Tues.