N20 the more I learn

[smw356]

I didn't realize that 1 out of 10 (N20, N13, N26, M102, M106, N54, N55, S63, N63, N74) was 90% but keep on keeping on jumping to pointless inane conclusions. If you have legitimate gripes against turbo chargers (such as lag, and what not fine voice those , though the N20 has next to no lag), but don't spout uneducated rhetoric just for the sake of being disagreeable.

[yaymitch]

Originally Posted by texasmojo

Pretty much 90% of BMW. Yes sir.

Probably still using a conventional oven since 90% of microwaves have radiation leaks...

You should hold on to one of the last N/A engines that BMW will ever produce...

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by the1andonly

I disagree. My favorite thing about my 128i is the sound when I start it up, that low growly sound. Then that turbine smooth power as I pull away. The car has performace perfectly balanced by the manual mated to the inline 6. Its not all about power and numbers. Neither of those thing are what I like best about driving my 128i everyday...but the things i like are missing in the new engine. I drove a new 528 and 328...sounded and drove like nothing special. Im keeping my 2012 128i...keep your "power", i prefer the traits of the NA 6.

Thats why they make both 128's and 135's. Keeps us all happy. You like yours for your reasons and I like mine for my reasons.

For me, its not all about power and numbers but its two of the big factors for me and many who purchase performance cars, and I will keep it, thanks.

0-60, 1/4 mile, time to 100mph(and above), skidpad, braking, slalom.....are discussed in every review of any car made. Why? Because its very important info for car people who like fast cars that also handle well around a race track. Maybe prius drivers dont care about power and numbers other than how many trees they can save but real car guys do.

Funny you describe your cars smooth power delivery to a turbine. Turbos are turbines, ironic isnt it?

To each his own.

[JimD]

My comment relates to the several comments on the manual, rear wheel drive X1. My "other car" is a 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara with a 2.7l V6 and manual transmission. It is RWD. I had a 4WD before it but in South Carolina, 4WD is a waste unless you really plan to go off road. I want a SUV mainly to tow my boat and other trailers. The ramp I usually use to the large local lake is pretty gradual and without the added ground clearance of a SUV, you couldn't open the door while launching without water coming into your vehicle. I've watched others with this problem. A 2WD SUV makes sense to me for my criteria. The only off road it has seen is for hunting and it did fine.

I'm pretty tempted by the X1 but I don't know if it has enough interior room for my family. The 128i is a little tight for 4 larger than average adults. The GV is OK, I'm concerned that the X1 might not be as large inside. I also usually keep vehicles more than 6 years.

I will also comment that while the n20 may be very utalitarian, for a sport car I am looking for more than just basic functionality. We seem to be moving to a world where the only engine mod worth messing with is to increse boost. That is not all bad but isn't what I want, at least for now. For a SUV it might be OK. But for my sporty car, I prefer a NA engine 6 (8 would be from several standpoints even better).

Jim

[the1andonly]

Originally Posted by NYC6

Thats why they make both 128's and 135's. Keeps us all happy. You like yours for your reasons and I like mine for my reasons.

For me, its not all about power and numbers but its two of the big factors for me and many who purchase performance cars, and I will keep it, thanks.

0-60, 1/4 mile, time to 100mph(and above), skidpad, braking, slalom.....are discussed in every review of any car made. Why? Because its very important info for car people who like fast cars that also handle well around a race track. Maybe prius drivers dont care about power and numbers other than how many trees they can save but real car guys do.

Funny you describe your cars smooth power delivery to a turbine. Turbos are turbines, ironic isnt it?

To each his own.

with the turbo 4 both the 128 and the 135 will be turbo and there will unfortunately be no more NA options soon. That being said, my biggest issue is not with the turbo, its in my opinion the lifeless characteristics of the turbo 4...I dont care if an engine can output 600 horsepower, in my opinion its also the characteristics and personality of the engine that impact the overall driving experience. Yes car reviews talk 0-60 and 1/4 mile but if you read further most talk about the engine characteristics such as sound, how it revs and how its power is delivered. There are Toyota Camrys with high HP output engines, so a real car guy would choose that over a BMW with a lower output engine? Of course not, because in my opinion the driving characteristics of the BMW are better. Thats how I feel about the inline 6...despite the numbers in my opinion it feels better, in both turbo and NA forms than the 4...

My experience with the turbo 4 vs 6 is that the 4 is a fine engine with impressive numbers on paper, but in execution and driving experience in my opinion it falls flat next to the 6...

when the 4 makes its way into the 1 series (or 2 series) Ill give it another try with an open mind, but in my opinion the 4 was very unimpressive in the 328/528 I drove...

Ill agree with you on one thing...to each his own

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by the1andonly

I disagree. My favorite thing about my 128i is the sound when I start it up, that low growly sound. Then that turbine smooth power as I pull away. The car has performace perfectly balanced by the manual mated to the inline 6. Its not all about power and numbers. Neither of those thing are what I like best about driving my 128i everyday...but the things i like are missing in the new engine. I drove a new 528 and 328...sounded and drove like nothing special. Im keeping my 2012 128i...keep your "power", i prefer the traits of the NA 6.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Numbers might run most reviews, but they mean nothing to how something feels.

[NYC6]

"lifeless, personality, sound, feels better", these are all words that are subjective. One persons opinion can be vastly different from anothers. I for one already stated that Im not a fan of the I6's sound. It really does very little for me, I bought it for the performance. Others, such as yourself love it and thats fine. But the fact is, sound and those other traits are merely opinions.

Engine performance on the other hand is definitive. An engine that makes more power sooner off idle, more power in the midrange and more power as the dials sweeps up the tach towards redline and is a lighter and stronger engine is the clear winner. To have it get better mileage is gravy! To have it wear the BMW blue & white logo is even better. They are quite renowned at making cutting edge engines.
And we are talking about two BMW's here. One with a I6 and the other with a I4T. Saying if both were offered in the same platform the I4T comes out on top(performance wise, not what sounds or soul one might say it has). Not comparing a Toyota as a whole compared to a BMW. One BMW powerplant vs. another BMW powerplant.

[CentralPA E82]

The sound is part of the experience. If a true sports car was whisper quiet it would lose some of its appeal. Sure getting pushed back in the seat, cornering and pure speed are the big factors with a sports car. If a Vette, Ferrari, Porsche didn't sound the part . . .

[Hops128i]

+1 for the sound of the NA i6, it was a major reason for my purchase.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by CentralPA E82

The sound is part of the experience. If a true sports car was whisper quiet it would lose some of its appeal. Sure getting pushed back in the seat, cornering and pure speed are the big factors with a sports car. If a Vette, Ferrari, Porsche didn't sound the part . . .

We were talking about 128's and the N52/N20 which arent sports cars. They're basic sports coupes. Sports cars are a whole nother thing.
My Corvette(600+hp) has the NPP two mode exhaust. While closed its surprisinly quiet and when open it roars almost like a NASCAR flying down Daytona. Sometimes its more fun for me to blow past the competion in the 'Dr. Jekyll mode. Woosssh is what they hear going past them.
Vipers were always said to have had a lousy exhaust note. Its been likened to two UPS trucks running side by side.
Bottom line, as I said earlier, sound is subjective. You like the sound of a N52 at redine, I dont. Sounds tinny and weak, all bark and no bite.
I'll take the subdued note of a GT2's exhaust muffled through its twin turbos.

[CentralPA E82]

True, should have said sports oriented cars. Not dumping on turbos, as stated earlier they will be even more prevalent with the government mandating fuel economy.

[bradleyland]

I went from a 2.8L, 200 HP, naturally aspirated, 24v VR6 in a 2002 GTI to a 2.0L, 200 HP, turbocharged I4 in a 2006 GTI, so I've experienced the difference in character first hand. Make no mistake, I definitely recognize the difference in power delivery.

Turbo engines have a torque surge down low that feels like a large displacement pursh rod V8. With small factory turbos, they usually don't have the top end of a N/A performance engine, but IMO, the trade-off can be pretty sweet. There's a reason that my 2.0T GTI stomped my 2002 GTI in every category. Granted, the 2.0T sounded like a diesel at idle, and even though VW did a great job with the exhaust note, it couldn't hold a candle to the warble of a 24v VR6 on full boil.

There's a lot to appreciate about both types of power delivery, but IMO, the N/A crowd tends to be a bit "uppity" about the purity of natural aspiration. I don't know many turbo guys who don't appreciate how a N/A engine delivers power, but it seems that N/A guys are all too ready to cut off their nose to spite their face. Turbo charged engines have a lot to offer.

And let's not get started with the revisionist history. Turbocharged cars disappeared after the 80s for some very obvious reasons. Problem #1 was that the supporting technology wasn't there, leading to poor fuel economy and lousy reliability. Many early turbocharged cars had carburetors, for crying out loud. Can you imagine trying to tune a carb equipped turbo car!? Some didn't have intercoolers. Yeah, you can stop laughing now, it's true!

Today's turbocharged engines are worlds better than early attempts. No one is changing their tune, and plenty of turbocharged Subies and VWs are pushing well in to the 100k mile range. Look at turbo diesels and you add several more makes and push in to the 200k mile range.

[roo97ss]

It's funny around here how we talk about sound and performance...when it comes to the 135 there are many a discussion about how great the low end power and easy tunability of the n54/n55 make it superior to the S54 in the e46 m3. Personally, the S54 was the 'best' i6 I've owned and experienced (i've had a bunch). It was a nice sound and i loved the high end rip of the car, talk about n/a attitude.

Compared to the s54, the N52 is about as boring as it gets as it heads toward redline. it's soooo smooth with no big burst. very nice for a daily, but lacking compared to the earlier m50/m52/m54 cars i've had. However the n52 is more powerful, more fuel efficient and at the same time more 'turbine smooth'. Each generation has lost some character and gained power and economy. The n20 is the next move. More isolated, more power, more mpg. The 90% bmw driver will only notice the extra power down low and less money at the pump and be pleased with their car.

[roo97ss]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

...Today's turbocharged engines are worlds better than early attempts. No one is changing their tune, and plenty of turbocharged Subies and VWs are pushing well in to the 100k mile range. Look at turbo diesels and you add several more makes and push in to the 200k mile range.

Amen to that...Go over the truck forums, 200k for them is just getting broken in. The experience with direct injection and turbos and long life is well proven in the powerstroke, cummins and duramax worlds...in big heavy, hard working vehicles; many of which have been pushed way beyond stock form and lasted 100-200-300k miles...

[TheSt|G]

Linear power and the boredom of torque isn't subjective.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Linear power and the boredom of torque isn't subjective.

James May would disagree.



That makes it subjective - if someone can disagree, not necessarily May, than that by definition makes it subjective.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

James May would disagree.



That makes it subjective - if someone can disagree, not necessarily May, than that by definition makes it subjective.

Linear power is a line on a graph, the feel is subjective.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Linear power is a line on a graph, the feel is subjective.

I was going with the boredom of torque thing

[Adam135]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Linear power and the boredom of torque isn't subjective.

Wait, what? How do you get bored of torque? It's what you feel when accelerating.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

I was going with the boredom of torque thing

TQ is was gets me going. Thats why I like big American V8's and F/I smaller engines. A 3L engine w/o forced induction just won't give us that kick in the back of the seat thats so addictive. At least the older I6 M engines reved really high to give that rush. Thats where the new N20 is really going to shine over the 'linear' line the N52 makes, all the way to under 200rwhp/200ftlbs!
Linear, what an often used word that really doesnt mean a lot when it all boils down.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by Adam135

Wait, what? How do you get bored of torque? It's what you feel when accelerating.

Its actually the only thing you feel at all.

Horsepower is a made up number. Torque is the only "force" going through the driveline.

[CentralPA E82]

Will have to test drive a N20 car in the next few weeks, all this talk has me curious. Had a TT225 prior to the 128, fun car but the lag was annoying at times. The N55 loaner certainly didn't have that issue, hope the N20 shares that trait. Torque is boring, never