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04-26-2016, 12:33 AM | #23 | |
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Bold claims, but of course no dyno verification. I always er on the side with the most information provided, and AA is far and away the leader on that front. You would be the ONLY person I've see with this tune thus far, so it's hard to establish a trend on one person's experience. Back in my M52 days, one guy got an Epic Tune over the canned Shark Injector tune and made literally nothing. On the M3s, I've seen that they spent a lot of time perfecting their tune, but again, with actual empirical evidence, it's really heresy. |
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04-26-2016, 07:01 AM | #24 |
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The Conti Challenge cars ran Epic tunes before moving to Bosch Motorsports ECUs.
Bold assumptions being made on your part. I've got no interest in sharing my dyno numbers publicly (it's a competition car), but suffice to say the Epic tune also makes more power than the AA, especially down low, and at the top of its rev range. It also resolved a throttle hang on lift that every single competition vehicle I'm aware of running an AA tune on an MSV80 deals with. Same with absurd throttle mapping (80% throttle at 20% pedal pressure, data logged) That alone was worth the money spent. |
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04-26-2016, 09:02 AM | #25 |
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I can't say either way, but certainly appreciate the discussion. I'm looking to benefit from your collective experiences.
Presume AA is the header to get? Seems to be a fair price. For the tune, I certainly don't want to deal with a CEL because of O2 sensors or CATs. I've read about the throttle lag...would love to not have that. |
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04-26-2016, 09:56 AM | #26 | |
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I don't care what they run, without numbers you're telling people to 'trust you' isn't cutting it when the most powerful cars are running BCP or AA tunes. It's a reoccurring theme with you: - Make a bold claim. - Never substantiate it - Have a condescending* attitude when speaking to others on the matter, as if you have all the answers already. Epic made tunes for the Spec E46s, but when a member bought their tune for the M52tu he netted 3whp at peak, and zero additional peak torque, far below the other options offered. I'll gladly link that to anyone who wants to know. This isn't a dig at Epic, it's just me allowing people to have access to information to make an educated purchase. Last edited by Taskmaster; 04-29-2016 at 11:18 AM.. |
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04-26-2016, 10:18 AM | #27 | |
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I have Evolve tune (and stock headers) and got no absurde throttle pedal mapping and no throttle hang on lift (I have it but only with clutch pedal pressed). My dyno test output was 260 hp at the flywheel. On the same bench a stock 130i has about 252 hp. So.... nothing special and nothing for competition use... but in any case a good result |
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04-26-2016, 01:08 PM | #28 | |
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Why is flywheel output relevant? FWIW, I'm significantly above 252 flywheel, but less than 280. FWIW, I think 280 flywheel is perfectly reasonable for a full-tilt build on the stock ECU, without ruleset. I'd estimate based on my numbers, and those I've seen, that a 3-Stage manifold, 3-in exhaust, tune, intake, and custom header (the off-the-shelf options are not very well optimized) would get there. Reducing flywheel / clutch mass (that's illegal for my ruleset, along with the 3-stage manifold on an N52) would also make a substantial difference in drivetrain loss. I'm hardly being condescending (I think that's the word Axiom meant to use, although an assumption that I haven't spent any time on the dyno, or testing parts combinations is pretty condescending). Given that the folks competing at the top level of the sport spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to do so, I don't have a lot of interest in quantifying or nullifying any advantages I've got above the competition to satisfy forum junkies. Little to gain, a lot to lose. I had an AA tune on the car. I switched from Active to Epic (and spent the money to do so). The difference is night and day, and repeatable. My Active tune was "the best they could do for me", and the Epic tune is still being farther optimized, a few hours on the dyno will improve it more. |
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04-26-2016, 02:52 PM | #30 | |
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04-26-2016, 04:36 PM | #31 |
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Given that I've had plenty of competitors point out other things about my build I've posted on about here (non 1-series owners, largely), I'll pretty openly disagree with that.
I'll see myself out, I'm merely attempting to help folks as best I reasonably can. Last edited by RyanDavies; 04-26-2016 at 04:47 PM.. |
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04-26-2016, 06:07 PM | #32 | ||
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OP, my numbers with OE tuning (not recommended) 19whp/15wtq gains over stock with intake manifold, intake and tune AA's numbers, essentially the same modifications: +26whp/32wtq Here is another active powered car Quote:
Remember that high RPM drop off on N52k cars? They corrected that as well. ESS's tune - they don't have a header specific one http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1187652 Does this mean that AA or BPC produce the MOST power all the time? No, but the results are easily verifiable and can be referenced and compared against everyone else on the forum. Or you can just trust the other guy whose answer amounts to "just take my word for it" |
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04-27-2016, 07:22 AM | #33 |
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Seems like I still have that issue...(I attached my snapshot).
Look guys, Ryan isn't a typical forum troll. I know him personally and he (as well as me) has bent over backwards with trying to figure out the best tune with the best gains. STX Ruleset (which we are HELD to, consists of the following modifications). Stock ECU No Manifold Change CAI/Headers allowed Custom Exhaust allowed, must use a 100 cell in OE location. Tune. With that being said, I am okay with AA results I currently have, I would like more. I am continuing with getting another tune from AA to incorporate my 3" exhaust build, along with more aggressive throttle mapping (to eliminate this stupid throttle hang), and an aggressive RPM limiter. You can see in the picture my RPM limiter is currently configured as a soft limiter, you can see how the HP levels out til redline. I will privately share my results with Ryan, and he will share his with mine. As fellow competitors with the same car, I trust him with my information, and vice versa. And what Ryan says is true, we throw stupid money at our cars to make them the top of the top. Hell, I have close to $700 in 3 exhaust pieces, not including Fab work. Also, people calling the 128i on a stock ECU not competitive...where should I post all my trophy's from last year? |
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04-27-2016, 08:32 AM | #34 | |
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I also won some trophies in amateur motorbike racing but that does not mean my bike was a competition bike, it was only a track-day motorbike and had no problem in sharing with other guys my bike spec |
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04-27-2016, 12:55 PM | #35 | ||||||
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That's the DISA closing for a 4th stage, I asked Bob to bump it up higher and see what happens.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=105 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1206386&page=6 Quote:
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So you plan involved moving to a single exhaust with a 100cell high flow cat, I know because we actually talked about this. MY only suggestion was to place that merger as far back as you could BEFORE the Cat, which spawned a discussion of him talking down to everyone on "well race teams do things this way." Quote:
Also, never experienced this throttle hang you're speaking of. Quote:
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Anyhow, I guess you guys where so worried about defending the money spent and each other, you missed some gems I dropped for you: Quote:
I'm pretty sure this is a comparison between the off the shelf tune (manifold only?) and the dyno tune (from AA) When I inquired about the actual tune itself, they said they don't stock their dynotune files, so I don't think customers will be getting this one. And based on the date of the dyno ( and the thread it came from) It predates the AA headers, and might have been the first HEADER tuned car they did in person (vs remotely) Anyhow, this is what they SAY they offer with the off the shelf tune: I'm still skeptical, but I've seen a few 240whp+ around the forums now. It's hard to argue with a company that did put down the most power and torque of any tuner thus far. |
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04-27-2016, 01:42 PM | #36 |
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See, didn't know anything about a 4th Stage. I'll talk to Karl about tuning this further. There are multiple times where this was an issue for me. Thank you.
Anyways, for a N51, these are impressive numbers. I think there can be more tweaking though PS - Just like Ryan mentioned earlier...plenty of Non-128i owners have discovered our public threads on our builds. There are some things that should just be kept secret As for the throttle hang, watch the video thru the finish and coasting to the start...I'm completely off the throttle but my OBDII is still picking up throttle input. |
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04-27-2016, 01:52 PM | #37 | |
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I ask you this because a throttle position different from 0 doesn't necessarily means that the car is accelerating. It can be done for different reasons, e.g. throttle partially open but no fuel injection for reducing engine brake or to have a faster pedal response if you change your mind and press the gas pedal again. Honestly when I lift off the gas or brake hard but don't press the clutch pedal, I don't feel any autonomous acceleration by the engine. Instead if I brake hard and immediately press the clutch pedal I can see engine rpms stop for 1 second at 2500/3000 rpms like the engine is accelerating. |
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04-27-2016, 01:55 PM | #38 | |
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It's very easy to notice when you drive a car without it. My Z4M does not have this issue. When you lift off the throttle you get instant engine braking with the accompanying engine note (and exhaust pop). When you do the same in the 128i, there is no exhaust pop and there is a very easily identifiable 1-2 second delay before you get any exhaust drone on deceleration...There is never an exhaust pop because you're still technically on throttle. |
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04-27-2016, 02:42 PM | #40 | |
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04-27-2016, 02:44 PM | #41 |
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Really learning a great deal from the discussion. I decided to go with AA since I'm getting the headers from them -and- their new exhaust!!! Yes, I'm now the test mule for their exhaust. Also means by default, I'm getting their tune. I don't want any CELs and I want to drive the car on the street some of the time.
I asked them about the throttle hang discussion, here is what he said..."guys are using an N54 manifold and giving up a lot of low end to get top end...that causes some issues". I'm not knowledgeable enough to debate the subject, so not sure if he was accurate in his description of WHY the throttle hang is occurring. Anyhow, the car is pretty much stripped on the rack, parts going on now. Exhaust and headers will be here next week. AA states it will be a little more aggressive than the BPE, we'll see. He stated another 7-10hp from the exhaust. Will report back. |
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04-27-2016, 04:07 PM | #42 |
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Not to make a AA vs BPC thread, but I suggest you talk with BPC about the N54 manifold with Alfa N, they seemed like they were the ones who pioneered the swap and tuning, and have the numbers to back it up.
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04-27-2016, 06:55 PM | #43 | |
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New Car: 2019 Porsche 718 Cayman GTS | Stock for now Old Car: 2013 BMW 128i | 6MT | BMW Performance Grills | CDV Delete | SSK | Performance Exhaust | M3 RSFB | TCKR DA |
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04-27-2016, 07:17 PM | #44 |
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The throttle hang is something in the stock and AA tune, fwiw. It's for emissions purposes (lots of unburned hydrocarbons slamming throttle plate shut directly from WOT.
They'll deny it happens, and claim that nobody else has the issue. I could see it being hard to notice on the street, but it is a huge bear (along with the brake pretensioning) on corner entry. It affects the balance of the car significantly, and doesn't allow as much consistent front weight transfer, reducing grip and making it harder to drive. I would happily have traded 10whp to have that singular issue resolved. Ditto for the non-linear throttle. Having logged both tunes throttle position calibration, the AA tune would give over 80% of throttle to the motor with <25% pedal travel. Makes for a "faster" feeling car on tip-in, but much harder to modulate on exit. The stock rear muffler is a gigantic bottleneck, as is the resonator. Should open up a large bit of power. FWIW, I did look into the BPC Alpha-N tuning, but there's no way for Kyle or I to do it legally under our current rule set. |
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