Another alignment question for front m3 arms

John_01 · 07-16-2015, 11:05 PM

When I used front toe out previously it was about 1/8" (That is around -0.16 per side). The difficulty with recommending a specific amount of toe out is the alignment is going to drift over time. If you start out at -0.05 the handling will change when, for example the toe drifts out to -0.15 over time. This may be the case if brand new suspension is installed and the height will later settle. For a road car situation I'd rather start at +0.05 toe, then if drift takes it to -0.05, there is less cause for concern. Generally I prefer to favour stability and safety for this type of situation where there are many unknown factors, and where the car (and driver) won't be tested to the limits in a controlled situation.

Jez · 08-28-2015, 07:13 AM

Hi again guys,

Everything has finally arrived and tomorrow I'm fitting new springs, shocks, new shock monts and M3 front arms

I won't be driving the car until Tuesday, when I take it to a garage for alignment.

I would just like confirmation that people think these specs will be ok.

I have spoken to the garage and they have said that a 0.05 degree tolerance band for the toe would be fine.

(all in degrees)

Front
Camber: Max negative (-1.5 likely)
Toe: +0.02 to +0.07
Total toe: 0.04 to 0.14

Rear
Camber: -1.6 to -1.8
Toe: +0.05 to +0.1
Total toe: 0.1 to 0.2

What do you think?

Thanks

Jez · 08-28-2015, 02:30 PM

All sorted now, only confusion I had was that some M3 specs were listed in degrees, some were in degrees and minutes and I didn't realise. The specs I've posted fall within the M3 alignment specs and I'm sure they'll be fine.

dtla1 · 08-28-2015, 06:19 PM

I would suggest less rear toe.

zapatista · 09-03-2015, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jez

Hi again guys,

Everything has finally arrived and tomorrow I'm fitting new springs, shocks, new shock monts and M3 front arms

I won't be driving the car until Tuesday, when I take it to a garage for alignment.

I would just like confirmation that people think these specs will be ok.

I have spoken to the garage and they have said that a 0.05 degree tolerance band for the toe would be fine.

(all in degrees)

Front
Camber: Max negative (-1.5 likely)
Toe: +0.02 to +0.07
Total toe: 0.04 to 0.14

Rear
Camber: -1.6 to -1.8
Toe: +0.05 to +0.1
Total toe: 0.1 to 0.2

What do you think?

Thanks

Thanks for asking all the questions I was going to ask. Just got done with a bunch of the same mods yesterday (well, this morning about 2am). Added my signature with all the suspension upgrades and need to do an alignment (mine is a 128i/e88).

HP Autosport · 09-06-2015, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtla1

I would suggest less rear toe.

Yes, rear toe should be .08 per side for best handling. 0.1 isn't excess either.

pepper135I · 05-12-2016, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Yes, rear toe should be .08 per side for best handling. 0.1 isn't excess either.

Does this look like a a better setup that would be beneficial for stock suspension? Or does the rear tow need to go up ? tried to read through all the different alignment posts to get a better understanding. Just don't want to make the car feeling worse than it already is when I align her tomorrow ahha.

Front
camber= max negative
Caster= 7.0-7.2
Tow = .07 on each side for .14 total

Rear
Max negative camber
Rear tow = .08-.09 for .16-.18 total?

John_01 · 05-13-2016, 01:50 AM

I got my car aligned the other day. Now its a road car alignment, as I am not doing any track days. This is what I asked for.

FRONT:
Camber = -0.8 ~ -1.0 degree per side (Fixed strut mounts + M3 arms @ stock ride height).
Toe = +0.05 degree per side. (Toe In)
Total Toe = +0.10 degree approx.

REAR:
Camber = -1.6 ~ -1.7 degree per side.
Toe = +0.15 degree per side. (Toe In)
Total toe = 0.26 ~ 0.34 degree (A realistic adjustment range)

If you have a bit less rear toe in such as +0.20 total, it will be ok. However, don't expect it to stay very close to the setting as it tends to change over time, and won't be accurate anymore. The rear drifts out of spec more easily than the front.

pepper135I · 05-13-2016, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_01

I got my car aligned the other day. Now its a road car alignment, as I am not doing any track days. This is what I asked for.

FRONT:
Camber = -0.8 ~ -1.0 degree per side (Fixed strut mounts + M3 arms @ stock ride height).
Toe = +0.05 degree per side. (Toe In)
Total Toe = +0.10 degree approx.

REAR:
Camber = -1.6 ~ -1.7 degree per side.
Toe = +0.15 degree per side. (Toe In)
Total toe = 0.26 ~ 0.34 degree (A realistic adjustment range)

If you have a bit less rear toe in such as +0.20 total, it will be ok. However, don't expect it to stay very close to the setting as it tends to change over time, and won't be accurate anymore. The rear drifts out of spec more easily than the front.

Thank you for the insight ! So basically just adjust rear tow to .1+ Per side And I am on the right track if I want a little better cornering ability ?

John_01 · 05-13-2016, 02:07 AM

I think Harold is right that rear toe of 0.1 per side is good for handling as it will make it more sporty and rotate more on corners (Potentially less stability). My concern is that it will go out of spec easily. I decided on 0.15 per side since I may not get the alignment checked that often and because it is a road car. The rear toe can easily change by 0.1 or more just by hitting some potholes - which doesn't reflect well on the design IMO. 0.15 degree per side is about 1/8" total which is typical setting for rear toe that is very commonly used.

pepper135I · 05-13-2016, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_01

I think Harold is right that rear toe of 0.1 per side is good for handling as it will make it more sporty and rotate more on corners (Potentially less stability). My concern is that it will go out of spec easily. I decided on 0.15 per side since I may not get the alignment checked that often and because it is a road car. The rear toe can easily change by 0.1 or more just by hitting some potholes - which doesn't reflect well on the design IMO.

Gotchya .. So does this look better to you ?

Front
camber= max negative (stock suspension)
Caster= 7.0-7.2
Tow = -.07 on each side for -.14 total or 0

Rear
Max negative camber
Rear tow = .12 -.13 per side

Would this be better for sprinted driving, but still daily drivable ?

John_01 · 05-13-2016, 02:19 AM

Rear toe around 0.10 ~ 0.15 per side will be very similar. It looks fine to me.

pepper135I · 05-13-2016, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_01

Rear toe around 0.10 ~ 0.15 per side will be very similar. It looks fine to me.

Thank you sir. As for the front toe, if I evened it out to 0 would that give me better highway stability? I just want a stable car since it is a DD but at the same time optimal handling as much as I can get it .. (Canyons daily, autox monthly, track yearly )

John_01 · 05-13-2016, 06:00 AM

+0.05 degree per side is the minimum spec of the front toe range. It's enough for good stability on the highway, and will also give good handling. It will also work well for track day usage.
Normally for a track day setup you would ask to set the toe to zero, but +0.05 per side is close enough to zero that there will be almost no difference.

07-16-2015, 11:05 PM	#23
John_01 Colonel 232 Rep 2,643 Posts Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	When I used front toe out previously it was about 1/8" (That is around -0.16 per side). The difficulty with recommending a specific amount of toe out is the alignment is going to drift over time. If you start out at -0.05 the handling will change when, for example the toe drifts out to -0.15 over time. This may be the case if brand new suspension is installed and the height will later settle. For a road car situation I'd rather start at +0.05 toe, then if drift takes it to -0.05, there is less cause for concern. Generally I prefer to favour stability and safety for this type of situation where there are many unknown factors, and where the car (and driver) won't be tested to the limits in a controlled situation. Last edited by John_01; 07-16-2015 at 11:13 PM..
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08-28-2015, 07:13 AM	#24
Jez New Member 4 Rep 11 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: England iTrader: (0)	Hi again guys, Everything has finally arrived and tomorrow I'm fitting new springs, shocks, new shock monts and M3 front arms I won't be driving the car until Tuesday, when I take it to a garage for alignment. I would just like confirmation that people think these specs will be ok. I have spoken to the garage and they have said that a 0.05 degree tolerance band for the toe would be fine. (all in degrees) Front Camber: Max negative (-1.5 likely) Toe: +0.02 to +0.07 Total toe: 0.04 to 0.14 Rear Camber: -1.6 to -1.8 Toe: +0.05 to +0.1 Total toe: 0.1 to 0.2 What do you think? Thanks
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08-28-2015, 02:30 PM	#25
Jez New Member 4 Rep 11 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: England iTrader: (0)	All sorted now, only confusion I had was that some M3 specs were listed in degrees, some were in degrees and minutes and I didn't realise. The specs I've posted fall within the M3 alignment specs and I'm sure they'll be fine.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

08-28-2015, 06:19 PM	#26
dtla1 Colonel 828 Rep 2,232 Posts Drives: 2011 135i, Space Grey Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Silicon Valley iTrader: (2)	I would suggest less rear toe.
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05-13-2016, 01:50 AM	#30
John_01 Colonel 232 Rep 2,643 Posts Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	I got my car aligned the other day. Now its a road car alignment, as I am not doing any track days. This is what I asked for. FRONT: Camber = -0.8 ~ -1.0 degree per side (Fixed strut mounts + M3 arms @ stock ride height). Toe = +0.05 degree per side. (Toe In) Total Toe = +0.10 degree approx. REAR: Camber = -1.6 ~ -1.7 degree per side. Toe = +0.15 degree per side. (Toe In) Total toe = 0.26 ~ 0.34 degree (A realistic adjustment range) If you have a bit less rear toe in such as +0.20 total, it will be ok. However, don't expect it to stay very close to the setting as it tends to change over time, and won't be accurate anymore. The rear drifts out of spec more easily than the front.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

05-13-2016, 02:07 AM	#32
John_01 Colonel 232 Rep 2,643 Posts Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	I think Harold is right that rear toe of 0.1 per side is good for handling as it will make it more sporty and rotate more on corners (Potentially less stability). My concern is that it will go out of spec easily. I decided on 0.15 per side since I may not get the alignment checked that often and because it is a road car. The rear toe can easily change by 0.1 or more just by hitting some potholes - which doesn't reflect well on the design IMO. 0.15 degree per side is about 1/8" total which is typical setting for rear toe that is very commonly used. Last edited by John_01; 05-13-2016 at 02:12 AM..
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05-13-2016, 02:19 AM	#34
John_01 Colonel 232 Rep 2,643 Posts Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	Rear toe around 0.10 ~ 0.15 per side will be very similar. It looks fine to me.
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05-13-2016, 06:00 AM	#36
John_01 Colonel 232 Rep 2,643 Posts Drives: E90 325i, E82 135i Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (0)	+0.05 degree per side is the minimum spec of the front toe range. It's enough for good stability on the highway, and will also give good handling. It will also work well for track day usage. Normally for a track day setup you would ask to set the toe to zero, but +0.05 per side is close enough to zero that there will be almost no difference.
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