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      11-24-2011, 04:59 AM   #89
CrustyNoodle
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Higher engine operating temps are better for fuel efficiency - suspect this is why the OE stuff targets a high oil (and no doubt water) temp.

Lower engine temps produce more power but are less fuel efficient.
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      11-24-2011, 05:08 AM   #90
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Justin - can you give any details on why the end tanks of the new radiator are slightly smaller in diameter and if this was intentional part of the design?
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      11-24-2011, 05:24 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianf2002 View Post
120 deg is fine... over 150 deg is an issue and when DME engine management reduces power. 100-120 deg is optimal temp managed by thermostat setting. I have done many track days and my oil temps have never gone over 120. The only time it went high was on the Advan dyno due to lack of fans blowing on it initially.

Get your facts correct before sprouting unfounded statements. I think the BMW engineers know what they are doing. Do a track day first and then see if it is an issue. Unless your mods are pushing more than 20% over stock, I can't see this being an issue.
Hey Ian,

with all due respect I would not consider a sustained oil temp of 120+ degrees Celsius to be fine, for anything but a stock vehicle making stock power.

I suspect the N55 may place less load on the oil cooling system than that of the N54.

You only have 1 heat exchanger on your vehicle, where as the N54 has two turbos that are spinning like crazy and in turn generating a lot of heat.

That is potentially more thermal load on the oil cooling system, which would result in higher running temps than that of the twin-scroll turbo N55.

By the way are the BMW engineers you so fondly refer to, the one and the same engineers that managed very quickly to resolve the HPFP and or ignition system issues that would have otherwise plagued the platform, oh wait, they didn't.

Lastly if you do the math Ian, practically ANY 135i/335i with just a PROcede or JB3/JB4 will be making way more power than 20% over stock.

Last edited by JD75; 11-24-2011 at 05:55 AM.. Reason: Typo
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      11-24-2011, 03:36 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW86 View Post
Good advice Kenny. Do you think dual cores is an overkill though?
It depends on what you want to use your car for. You can look at it as a one off expense that solves that particular engineering problem long term. Then you forget it.
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      11-24-2011, 04:02 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianf2002 View Post
Out of interest, you must have additional coolers on your beast?
No I am running stock cooling, street car has not needed anything better. If I was to upgrade I would go ER race setup and consider the Advan offering that's in development.
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      11-24-2011, 05:04 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
Hey Paul,

the PWR radiator was fitted just prior to the car entering the "Hot Tuner Shootout".

FYI,

the Stett oil cooler kit was the VERY FIRST MOD I bought for the vehicle.

This was for two reasons.

The first being that I considered it a key component given the "build" I had envisaged.

The latter was that excessive oil temps was very much a known problem on modded vehicles, due to the insufficient OE oil cooling system.

I had not upgraded the radiator previously, as I had not tracked the car as yet.

The Stett kit had done wonders for controlling oil temps whilst the car had spent countless hours on the dyno.

Pete has commented several times before that my car has the lowest sustained oil temp, of all the N54/N55 BMW's he has dynoed.

Which in itself is quite significant as my 1'er makes just a little more horsepower than most other 1 & 3 Series BMW's too.

Paul I suspect if you give Pete a bit of notice, he can knock the complete installation over in around 5 hours.
Thanks , always a pleasure to hear from someone in the know!

I have had a look at the space in front of the OEM radiator and like everywhere else in the front there's bugger all space and I didn't realise there would need to be substantial cutting required. So I have reconsidered the placement and I tend to agree the best place would be where the OEM unit is. Just not sure If I need the Radiator as well??? I will see what the temps get to at wakefield
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      11-25-2011, 04:29 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
.
.
.

You only have 1 heat exchanger on your vehicle, where as the N54 has two turbos that are spinning like crazy and in turn generating a lot of heat.
.
.
.
Strictly speaking, the turbos don't generate any heat but rather absorb the heat from the exhaust gases - but that is being a bit pedantic and I think most understand what you're getting at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
.
.
.

By the way are the BMW engineers you so fondly refer to, the one and the same engineers that managed very quickly to resolve the HPFP and or ignition system issues that would have otherwise plagued the platform, oh wait, they didn't.
.
.
.
A bit of history....
The fuel system issues were actually a result of the Siemens fuel injection technology that BMW adopted. The whole issue has caused Siemens much grief and no doubt lost them a heck of a lot of cash - but it's BMW that get the bad rap.
BMW should have gone through with the Aussie DI technology developed by Orbital Engine Co. - but that's another story.
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      11-26-2011, 08:58 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alik01 View Post
JD75/Skycat, is there any reason why you think the OE thermostat pushes temperatures into the 120C. What would be the benefit BMW engineers were angling for with this? The reason I ask is, if the solution to better cooling is having the thermostats action point reduced, wouldn't this be the obvious thing for BMW to do first before sticking extra coolers in the 1M & BMWP Performance Pack?

I'm really concerned about the temps in my car while on the track which hit about 130 sometimes, but the engine ran perfectly well and seemed to be pulling hard as ever. The 120C mark is a mid point on the engine and it seems to love being at this temp. From your extensive experience, is there any benefit to running warmer?

Thanks.
Hey mate,

as has already been mentioned an engine running at higher operating temps will be more efficient.

This increased efficiency will lend itself to both improved fuel economy and reduced emissions.

Obviously the above is a win win for the BMW owner.

However if that same owner is intending on tracking the car, I would suspect at a minimum they are running a "tune".

FYI,

on an otherwise stock vehicle (save a Dinan CAI), my car via a Vishnu PROcede "tune" on Map 1 produced 230 rwKw and on Map 2, a not so disappointing 250 rwKw.

It dynoed up at a 190 rwKw baseline just prior,

so here we have a 60 rwKw gain via just the PROcede, cheers Adrian.

If you throw on some catless downpipes, which according to Pete at Advan appears to be the "flavour of the month", you would be looking at 260+ without breaking a sweat.

Just to be clear I am talking about the N54 here, I do not have that much experience with the N55 powerplant, but my limited research suggests that the N54 generally responds better to the same mods.

So with a "tune" and "catless" pipes you have bumped up engine output by approximately 37% + or -, depending on how happy the specific N54 is.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know what a 1M dynoes up at?

I suspect it is somewhat South of 260 rwKw and I guess BMW did NOT see fit, to up the cooling capacity of their formidable "track ready" M car.

I would be a little concerned to say the very least, if I saw my oil temp guage licking 130 degrees Celsius.

In the short term I suspect you will get away with running operating temps under extreme engine duress intended for a stock vehicle.

However depending on how much power the engine is NOW developing and to what degree you push the car, it could end up being a VERY expensive exercise.

In summary guys,

if you "want to play you have to pay".

Last edited by JD75; 11-26-2011 at 09:19 PM.. Reason: Typo
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      11-26-2011, 09:46 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcockley View Post
Thanks, very interesting. basically 150 for oil before there's a problem. I guess if you are hitting those numbers more regular oil changes would be a good idea!
Hmmm,

if you are hitting anything close to 150 degrees Celsius whilst tracking the car, I suspect in the long term you will be changing more than just your oil.
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      11-26-2011, 09:48 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
Hmmm,

if you are hitting anything close to 150 degrees Celsius whilst tracking the car, I suspect in the long term you will be changing more than just your oil.
Absolutely correct. Heat kills engines.
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      11-26-2011, 09:59 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
Hey mate,

as has already been mentioned an engine running at higher operating temps will be more efficient.

This increased efficiency will lend itself to both improved fuel economy and reduced emissions.

Obviously the above is a win win for the BMW owner.

However if that same owner is intending on tracking the car, I would suspect at a minimum they are running a "tune".

FYI,

on an otherwise stock vehicle (save a Dinan CAI), my car via a Vishnu PROcede "tune" on Map 1 produced 230 rwKw and on Map 2, a not so disappointing 250 rwKw.

It dynoed up at a 190 rwKw baseline just prior,

so here we have a 60 rwKw gain via just the PROcede, cheers Adrian.

If you throw on some catless downpipes, which according to Pete at Advan appears to be the "flavour of the month", you would be looking at 260+ without breaking a sweat.

Just to be clear I am talking about the N54 here, I do not have that much experience with the N55 powerplant, but my limited research suggests that the N54 generally responds better to the same mods.

So with a "tune" and "catless" pipes you have bumped up engine output by approximately 37% + or -, depending on how happy the specific N54 is.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know what a 1M dynoes up at?

I suspect it is somewhat South of 260 rwKw and I guess BMW did NOT see fit, to up the cooling capacity of their formidable "track ready" M car.

I would be a little concerned to say the very least, if I saw my oil temp guage licking 130 degrees Celsius.

In the short term I suspect you will get away with running operating temps under extreme engine duress intended for a stock vehicle.

However depending on how much power the engine is NOW developing and to what degree you push the car, it could end up being a VERY expensive exercise.

In summary guys,

if you "want to play you have to pay".
JD75, thanks so much taking the time to respond mate. Much appreciated.

Firstly, the numbers your car puts down is just insane and hats off to you and Advan gents for some amazing work and development.

Definitely agree with your summary and I do believe any 'tune' or power upgrades should always be met with corresponding upgrades to cooling, breaks and suspension. Ultimately I think it's down to what people want from their cars.

For me personally, the 1M is mostly a DD. It does the task remarkably well with just over 10K kms! I'm not really interested in modding it and the occasions I do take it on the track - the cars capabilities exceed my own greatly. My concern with the temperature was that 130C seemed extremely high but the car seemed very happy doing this. I pulled in after 2 laps at this temp but guys in the US seemed to have run all day with no issues.

My car is completely stock except for track wheels. I think Sparoz's dyno came in and just north of 200rwkw - so a long way off what you are doing. I think it supposedly has an extra cooler, but it's effect is hard to say.

I know this particular thing will next be 'track monster' but it's great fun. So, I now have a GT3 to try and be a hero in!

Thanks again.
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      11-26-2011, 10:36 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianf2002 View Post
The PPK comes with aux water radiator as an option for track use, which is the same as that fitted to the 1M I think. From this I can only deduce that BMW either believes that additional water cooling will lead to lower water AND oil temps. On the other hand, the aux water rad may simply be the cheaper solution for BMW?
One would assume you would decrease the thermal load on the oil cooling system, by increasing the efficiency of the water cooling properties of the engine.

I would imagine the cylinder head, engine block and turbochargers would contain both oil and water galleries.

If more heat can be removed from the water that circulates through these components, in stands to reason that oil temperatures would inturn drop by a percentage too.

By how much I am not sure,

but IIRC a few guys have reported that their oil temps have been reduced a little following the addition of Redline "Waterwetter" to their radiators.

Now if you add into the equation, a radiator that holds a greater volume of water as a result of increased core depth, that can only be a good thing for the cooling system on a whole.

Last edited by JD75; 11-26-2011 at 10:41 PM.. Reason: Typo
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      11-26-2011, 10:37 PM   #101
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Geez dude 10k how long you had the 1m
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      11-27-2011, 12:47 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMc View Post
One benefit of BMW running high temps in these DI engines, that I've read elsewhere on this forum, is that it may help prevent carbon build up on the inlet valves & tract. I'm not sure of the validity of this though. Anyone else heard/read similar?
Thank TimMc. Haven't heard this before. I don't really understand the increased efficiency argument - wouldn't a cooler engine run more efficiently?
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      11-27-2011, 05:06 AM   #103
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Nope!

Hotter engine temp = lower power, less fuel use, better emissions

Cooler engine temp = higher power, more fuel use, worse emissions

Think of it this way, the cooler the cylinder walls the more heat is lost to the cooling system (through the cylinder walls). Lost heat = lost energy = wasted fuel.

A colder engine is able to produce more power than a hot one due to all the same reasons an intercooler enables you to produce more power (ignition timing and charge density) - at the cost of fuel efficiency.
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      11-27-2011, 05:13 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyNoodle View Post
Strictly speaking, the turbos don't generate any heat but rather absorb the heat from the exhaust gases - but that is being a bit pedantic and I think most understand what you're getting at.

A bit pedantic yes, I have seen turbos glow so hot that you can see the turbine wheel and this is on turbos 4 times the size of the tiny BMW units. On the dyno the tiny BMW units have a nice bright red glow from the turbos back down the dumps to the mid pipe. Trust me on the race track yours are doing the same. So if you are running your oil temps to 130-140 you are CRAZY and have far to much money or to much red mist,The N54/55 engine repair will cost $10,000+
Trust me when i say that a turbo will lift oil and water temps by 25% - 40% over an NA
depends on mods so keep a watch on that gauge, for what is worth its crap and is not correct anyway. IT READS LOW


A bit of history....
The fuel system issues were actually a result of the Siemens fuel injection technology that BMW adopted. The whole issue has caused Siemens much grief and no doubt lost them a heck of a lot of cash - but it's BMW that get the bad rap.
BMW should have gone through with the Aussie DI technology developed by Orbital Engine Co. - but that's another story.
BMW have stuffed up they have parts made to there specs they do not purchase ready made items all the injector and pump parts were made for the N54/55 engine its up to BMW to sort out there stuff up, they are trying,

Orbital i think that about ten years ago cost mums and dads a shit load with there bullshit air engine that was a flop and there two stroke that was not much better, Thank god that BMW did not go there
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      11-27-2011, 05:36 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyNoodle View Post
Nope!

Hotter engine temp = lower power, less fuel use, better emissions

Cooler engine temp = higher power, more fuel use, worse emissions

Think of it this way, the cooler the cylinder walls the more heat is lost to the cooling system (through the cylinder walls). Lost heat = lost energy = wasted fuel.

A colder engine is able to produce more power than a hot one due to all the same reasons an intercooler enables you to produce more power (ignition timing and charge density) - at the cost of fuel efficiency.

Yes all good and correct,
there is nothing wrong with the stock BMW cooling setup you can drive around on the street with 250+kw with no issue untill the cows come home. Its only when you make that sort of power and combine that with a track day that you will have issues,
an over heated N54/55 with an open deck block = big bucks to fix
you may even end up biffing away the block
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      11-27-2011, 05:39 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skycat View Post
BMW have stuffed up they have parts made to there specs they do not purchase ready made items all the injector and pump parts were made for the N54/55 engine its up to BMW to sort out there stuff up, they are trying,

Orbital i think that about ten years ago cost mums and dads a shit load with there bullshit air engine that was a flop and there two stroke that was not much better, Thank god that BMW did not go there
BMW's mistake was selecting Seimen's technology. N54/55 fuel systems are manufactured by Seimens and Bosch (under license). Seimens sold them a turkey when they convinced BMW that a positive displacement pump would reliably pump petrol at 200 bar (3000 psi) and expect the seals to hold up. Given the environment, I think they've done a remarkable job to get it to work as well as they have.

The day's of Orbital selling snake oil went out many more than 10 years ago - along with Ralph Sarich and his dog of an engine. It's not the fault of Orbital that the market went nuts and radically over valued the company.
Orbital have almost single handedly rescued the two stroke engine from obscurity giving it a new lease on life in outboard motors, snow mobiles and quads, and I for one will be one of the first to put my money down when KTM finally release their Direct Injected two stroke dirt bikes (using Orbital technology).
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      12-03-2011, 09:30 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmn View Post
If you're running more than 260kws it's liklely your running meth, this itself should keep the oil cool correct?

I need tyres before I'm doing any more modifications..
Hey mate,

contrary to what you would think, vehicles running Meth' will most probably see higher oil temps.

These guys are more than likely running higher boost levels to take full advantage of the decreased IAT's and knock supression, that methanol injection gives rise to.

More boost equates to higher cylinder pressures, which inturn means more heat is being generated within the cylinder head, the engine block and by the turbochargers themselves.

So where is this additional heat going to be dissipated?

You guessed it, by the oil and water that circulates within the above components.

So essentially whilst methanol injection is great for developing more power and torque, it "ain't" the magical cure for engine oil temperatures that are already high and rising.

Last edited by JD75; 12-03-2011 at 11:26 PM.. Reason: Typo
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      12-03-2011, 10:17 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW86 View Post
Good advice Kenny. Do you think dual cores is an overkill though?



I think 120 deg is safe but I plan on doing more drag racing and track events next year. Plus it gets really warm here in Queensland and I have done a fair few km's, more than most on this forum as I've had the 135i almost 3 years now. I've never experienced limp mode from overheating but I'd like to have a better cooling system before I upgrade my twin snails
Hey mate,

as I have said before I believe the best setup would comprise a quality single core of increased volume. A thermostat with a lower operating point and a radiator that has better heat exchange properties, due to both increased coolant capacity and core efficiency.

I see the above as a "Complete Cooling Solution", as it fixes ALL the deficiencies in the OE cooling system.

The kit Peter and myself are working on will most certainly do the job, whether you are running stock snails or "upped" turbos from Rob Beck or ASR, as I have done for some time now.

Last edited by JD75; 12-04-2011 at 12:41 AM.. Reason: typo
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      12-03-2011, 10:26 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcockley View Post
The more I think about it and read from other members the bigger single unit where the stock one is sounds like the best compromise? I am keen to hear back from JD, who has the most worked N54 I have seen locally on OIL/WATER cooling.

I suspect I know the answer but he has done lots of development so he will know
Hi Paul,

yep the OE oil cooler location is the optimum spot for an upgraded core.

As I mentioned in a prior post, you do not want to be imposing further airflow restriction to the core of the OE radiator.

"I would not wish to place a further flow restriction in front of the radiator.

It is worth noting that most guys who will buy this kit, are FBO.

As such they will already have a significantly larger intercooler installed in front of the radiator.

Installing a second component that further inhibits air flow through the rad' core is obviously not a good idea."

Cheers,

JD.

Last edited by JD75; 12-03-2011 at 10:35 PM.. Reason: Typo
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      12-03-2011, 10:46 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD75 View Post
Hey mate,

contrary to what you would think, vehicles running Meth' will most probably see higher oil temps.

These guys are more than likely running higher boost levels to take full advantage of the decreased IAT's and knock supression, that methanol injection gives rise to.

Moore boost equates to higher cylinder pressures, which inturn means more heat is being generated within the cylinder head, the engine block and by the turbochargers themselves.

So where is this additional heat going to be dissipated?

You guessed it, by the oil and water that circulates within the above components.

So essentially whilst methanol injection is great for developing more power and torque, it "ain't" the magical cure for engine oil temperatures that are already high and rising.
Exactly, a cooler intake charge has very little to do with the engine running temp.
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