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      02-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
For whatever reason a lot of dealers don’t like chargepipes, but FMICs seem to be in a grey area…As with all mods, it’s a case by case basis.

Best overall- Helix
Best 5” core- ETS or ER
Best value- VRSF 7”

You cannot go wrong with any of the above choices.

Edit: Ozinaldo- regarding your concerns above, A 7” core will weigh a good deal more than the OE unit, personally that’s something I’ll trade off every time, but it’s a valid concern. I’ve held the ETS 5”, and while it is heavier, I’d doubt it would make a noticeable difference in the handling dynamics of your car. With regards to the lag, again a 5” will be virtually identical to the OE unit, and a well-made 7” core will only introduce a small amount of lag on throttle tip in. You guys get pretty nice catted downpipes OE, so your starting off with less lag than I’d perceive in my car. IMO a good FMIC is one of the best upgrades on the market for the N54, it’s not a “wow” product, but it relives so much thermal stress from the system. N54 is an oven in terms of heat.
Thanks, much appreciated. Do you think ER would be better to mate with my already installed ER charge pipe, or probably any IC would fit the same way?
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      02-27-2013, 08:29 AM   #24
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The FMIC on the cold side attaches to the lower charge pipe, which is not part of the “charge pipe” you’re thinking of. So I’d imagine the ER would couple just like any of the other FMICs, I don’t see an inherent advantage there. But to be clear, I’ve never handled the ER unit in person, I just know that it comes very highly recommended and ER is a great company. The optional carbon fiber shroud is badass too.
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      02-27-2013, 10:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
The FMIC on the cold side attaches to the lower charge pipe, which is not part of the “charge pipe” you’re thinking of. So I’d imagine the ER would couple just like any of the other FMICs, I don’t see an inherent advantage there. But to be clear, I’ve never handled the ER unit in person, I just know that it comes very highly recommended and ER is a great company. The optional carbon fiber shroud is badass too.
No, I know that lower charge pipe is another piece, just was wondering if there could be any issues while mating THE diverter valve charge pipe with IC components, I guess there isn't.

I heard ER is very good too but it looks much bigger and heavier than the ETS, I think it is bigger than 5 inch core as well.
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      02-27-2013, 10:37 AM   #26
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I really don't see how 20 lbs or so weight difference in the fmic will affect the cars balance or handling. The car does weigh 3300 lbs. 20 lbs is less than 1% of its total weight.

And it's not part of the rotating mass.
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      02-27-2013, 10:44 AM   #27
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ETS makes great intercoolers. Their engineering and quality holds up to the 1500whp GTR kits, lots of the Evo and Subie guys like their quality too. They are proven and are able to provide tangible data to back up their claims. That is what sold me on the ETS kit to start. I would love to try more though and be able to compare, as best i can, between the performance of each.
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      02-27-2013, 11:16 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
I really don't see how 20 lbs or so weight difference in the fmic will affect the cars balance or handling. The car does weigh 3300 lbs. 20 lbs is less than 1% of its total weight.

And it's not part of the rotating mass.
Sure, but I am also not in favor of putting even the slightest additional weight right on top of the nose of a sports car, of course unless I have real gains (I am with stock tune and I live in a relatively mild climate for the foreseeable future). So, basically my thinking is since I didn't feel any overheating or loss of power issue, even after prolonged hard driving (definition: consistently over 200 km/h and sometimes close to whatever top speed of the car, occasional hard braking and going over those speeds again for durations like an hour or so during which I stay regularly over 4000 and mostly over 5000 rpms, change gears around 6000 to 7000 rpms depending on my mood, basically finishing the gas tank, outside temparatures around 30 to 35 Celsius)-hardest I can do here I may say and usually only once a week-brakes usually feel over heated and a bit noisy (nothing dramatic though) and that's all I can say about the noticeable difference between the end and the beginning of my weekly spirited driving sessions.

So, question is why will I change to a "better" aftermarket IC since I have one which works in "my" conditions, easily the lightest and also potentially with the least lag and best response? As nachob says in his post it also comes with a factory warranty and is already there since I bought the car new

I like to change things and put better ones instead only when I see a need. I will change the stock ic if I move to a warmer location and/or if I tune the engine.
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      02-27-2013, 11:32 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Sure, but I am also not in favor of putting even the slightest additional weight right on top of the nose of a sports car, of course unless I have real gains (I am with stock tune and I live in a relatively mild climate for the foreseeable future). So, basically my thinking is since I didn't feel any overheating or loss of power issue, even after prolonged hard driving (definition: consistently over 200 km/h and sometimes close to whatever top speed of the car, occasional hard braking and going over those speeds again for durations like an hour or so during which I stay regularly over 4000 and mostly over 5000 rpms, change gears around 6000 to 7000 rpms depending on my mood, basically finishing the gas tank, outside temparatures around 30 to 35 Celsius)-hardest I can do here I may say and usually only once a week-brakes usually feel over heated and a bit noisy (nothing dramatic though) and that's all I can say about the noticeable difference between the end and the beginning of my weekly spirited driving sessions.

So, question is why will I change to a "better" aftermarket IC since I have one which works in "my" conditions, easily the lightest and also potentially with the least lag and best response? As nachob says in his post it also comes with a factory warranty and is already there since I bought the car new

I like to change things and put better ones instead only when I see a need. I will change the stock ic if I move to a warmer location and/or if I tune the engine.
a little occasional hard driving on the street isnt really what i would call hard use of a sports car. i also wouldnt consider the 1m a sports car, but that is neither here nor there.

i dont think you can feel the extra 20lbs, especially not in the type of driving you are talking about.

what i do think is that in that type of driving, it is proven in logs all over this forum and other forums that you will likely be encountering timing drops and pre-detonation to possibly detonation events with the stock FMIC even on the stock tune.

the much lower IAT and resistence to heat soak gained from a 5 inch FMIC massively outweighs whatever possible negatives gained from an addiitonal 10-20lbs over the stock FMIC.

i still firmly believe there is no way you can notice any negative effects from 10-20 lbs added on the street driving like that.

I also think its a major mistake to assume all is good under the hood by "feeling" like there are no negative effects from the stock FMIC. Real proof comes from datalogging. You will absolutely take stress off your engine and run smoother in those, or any, conditions with an upgraded FMIC.
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      02-27-2013, 12:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
a little occasional hard driving on the street isnt really what i would call hard use of a sports car. i also wouldnt consider the 1m a sports car, but that is neither here nor there.

i dont think you can feel the extra 20lbs, especially not in the type of driving you are talking about.

what i do think is that in that type of driving, it is proven in logs all over this forum and other forums that you will likely be encountering timing drops and pre-detonation to possibly detonation events with the stock FMIC even on the stock tune.

the much lower IAT and resistence to heat soak gained from a 5 inch FMIC massively outweighs whatever possible negatives gained from an addiitonal 10-20lbs over the stock FMIC.

i still firmly believe there is no way you can notice any negative effects from 10-20 lbs added on the street driving like that.

I also think its a major mistake to assume all is good under the hood by "feeling" like there are no negative effects from the stock FMIC. Real proof comes from datalogging. You will absolutely take stress off your engine and run smoother in those, or any, conditions with an upgraded FMIC.
Fair enough, maybe I really can't feel everything going on as you say. By the way, I don't assume everything is good under the hood, for example I changed the charge pipe before it popped or cracked even though I am with stock boost level. Other parts of the car that I was confident that an upgrade is necessary were also changed.

And don't blame me, without a real track around that's all I could possibly do (not even legally) with a car like 1M!

I am probably over-sensitive with weight and throttle response related issues, and not keen to do anything which may have the slightest negative effect on those. Much like how I feel about my own body: loose weight and stay sharp after 40 years old
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      02-27-2013, 12:38 PM   #31
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Same-day testing results of the Forge FMIC are attached. Testing procedure was to do 3 consecutive runs at normal operating temperature in 4th gear starting at 2500rpm till 7000rpm. The attached runs compare the 3rd run (hottest) from before and after the FMIC install. We didn't have enough time to install our external pressure and temp sensors, but the results were clearly favorable.

Results are from a 2011 135i with no mods other than the PPK software updgrade.
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      02-27-2013, 12:45 PM   #32
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still, why is the forge intercooler so damn expensive compared to others with the same performance? must be a reason.
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      02-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
price doesn't necessarily denote quality! I almost went Forge, but ETS offers proof and replaces restrictive lower charge pipe too.
True. ETS is a great company. I've used their intercoolers before with good success. I wanted to keep the factory connectors, which limits the options. I've not seen anything proving that the lower pipe swap makes a real difference when compared to a good upgraded FMIC with the stock connectors/pipe. Do you know if any tests have been performed?
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      02-27-2013, 02:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Sure, but I am also not in favor of putting even the slightest additional weight right on top of the nose of a sports car, of course unless I have real gains.
I completely agree with this. The biggest issue with aftermarket intercoolers is the extra 15 lbs or more, in my opinion. I'm sure there are lots of drivers that would not notice; it's well less than the difference between a full and empty gas tank, for example. However I believe many drivers could notice that difference if they tried- the car puts power down better with a full gas tank, etc. BMW's piece, while many consider it flimsy, is very light. I wish there was an aftermarket offering that came close.
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      02-27-2013, 02:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
the much lower IAT and resistence to heat soak gained from a 5 inch FMIC massively outweighs whatever possible negatives gained from an addiitonal 10-20lbs over the stock FMIC.

i still firmly believe there is no way you can notice any negative effects from 10-20 lbs added on the street driving like that.
On most autocross courses I think a FMIC is likely to slow you down. Slightly more lag due to the larger volume of air to compress after the turbos (it's there, even if you don't feel it), more weight on the nose increases both understeer on turn-in and oversteer on exit, and reduces acceleration whever you're traction limited (which is a lot at the autocross). You're also probably not on the throttle (or on course) long enough for heat-soak to be an issue, and the extra weight will hurt cornering, braking, transitions, etc everywhere, which is where time is made. Could the extra power overcome this? On most courses I don't think so.

So whether the intercooler benefits "massively outweigh" the negatives depends on usage. Drag racing, sure. In a number of other cases I don't agree, however.
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      02-27-2013, 03:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zayzay View Post
still, why is the forge intercooler so damn expensive compared to others with the same performance? must be a reason.
you seem to be hung up on cost. cost has nothing to do with anything. figure out what you want out of the car (fast daily driver, full blown track car, etc) and then go from there. if your looking for a fast daily driver any one will do.
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      02-27-2013, 03:18 PM   #37
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i am looking for a fast daily driver and sometimes a track car
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      02-27-2013, 03:30 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
On most autocross courses I think a FMIC is likely to slow you down. Slightly more lag due to the larger volume of air to compress after the turbos (it's there, even if you don't feel it), more weight on the nose increases both understeer on turn-in and oversteer on exit, and reduces acceleration whever you're traction limited (which is a lot at the autocross). You're also probably not on the throttle (or on course) long enough for heat-soak to be an issue, and the extra weight will hurt cornering, braking, transitions, etc everywhere, which is where time is made. Could the extra power overcome this? On most courses I don't think so.

So whether the intercooler benefits "massively outweigh" the negatives depends on usage. Drag racing, sure. In a number of other cases I don't agree, however.
Tracking = road course, in my opinion

Not to mention I was specifically responding to the op commenting that he frequently did hour long drives consistently at high rpm. Nothing to do with autocross.

Again, I seriously doubt anyone could notice 10 lbs at the front of the car. Swapping to different tires would equal 100x more of a difference.

As far as lag goes, depends on the setup. I have noticed zero lag when using ets on my prior 335i 6mt. Stock or tuned.

If you are focused on the 1m as a focused auto x car I think one would be missing the point. And if you are more concerned with 10lbs at the front end than high iat and related detonation, well, we will have to agree to disagree
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      02-27-2013, 04:13 PM   #39
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^^^
Too much bench racing in this thread....thanks Ian for providing some real impressions! Any data logs with the ETS IC on the track? Notice the timing being pulled at all?
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      02-27-2013, 04:40 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
And if you are more concerned with 10lbs at the front end than high iat and related detonation, well, we will have to agree to disagree
BMW has multiple layers to protect the motor- overboost function is disabled, timing pulled out based on on temperatures, etc. You're kidding yourself if you're justifying your purchase based on some imagined improvement in durability. Dump 100 into it at the track and you'll be far better off.

Porsche charges 3k to remove 20 lbs from the nose of their cars with a Lithium battery. BMW probably spent that to more than that to remove 1/2 that weight from the roof of the M3. You only paid a grand to add that same amount of weight in the wrong place on the car. Sounds like a deal.

With road course use in hotter weather an intercooler may be justified, but it does come with a price other than the dollar value, and like everything else that goes into a car weight should be considered in the equation.
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      02-27-2013, 05:44 PM   #41
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Timing pulls occur as a result of pre detonation / detonation events. Data logs all over the forum show that.

Porsche also charges 3k for custom color seatbelts among other things.

Agree to disagree. I consider smoothing the engines response out more important than adding 10 lbs in the front of a 3300 lb car.

I also like not throwing codes or going into limp mode on the track.

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      02-27-2013, 05:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
BMW has multiple layers to protect the motor- overboost function is disabled, timing pulled out based on on temperatures, etc. You're kidding yourself if you're justifying your purchase based on some imagined improvement in durability. Dump 100 into it at the track and you'll be far better off.

Porsche charges 3k to remove 20 lbs from the nose of their cars with a Lithium battery. BMW probably spent that to more than that to remove 1/2 that weight from the roof of the M3. You only paid a grand to add that same amount of weight in the wrong place on the car. Sounds like a deal.

With road course use in hotter weather an intercooler may be justified, but it does come with a price other than the dollar value, and like everything else that goes into a car weight should be considered in the equation.
I agree. It is like spending a few thousand to an exhaust and then instead of saying that you love the sound or it looks cooler etc. which are the real (and enough) reasons, you go and justify it to yourself and others by saying that it is how much lighter than the stock muffler. I mean in a car which has registered issues at the rear with lack of sufficient down force and apparent lift at high speeds, we go and take out the weight from right there with joy and pride. Bad? Don't know really, just doesn't sound "ideal" to me and I did the same myself, my exhaust is lighter than stock. Do I notice it? Not really. But I am not justifying my exhaust purchase by saying that it shaved a lot of weight which is very important etc. It sounds good, feels good, looks good, cures the drone, puts more hp and tq but shaves the weight from the very wrong place.

I agree everything goes in comes with a price and it is never all pretty; well maybe with the shitty stock mids, anything else is perfect.

Let's go back to topic fellows, for people who need to buy an aftermarket IC which is the best one and why so. I know I will go with ETS when I need to add one, since it seems to come with least burden and thanks to everyone who confirmed this impression I had.
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      02-27-2013, 06:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
Well I put on a Remus muffler which is a few lbs heavier than stock, so this should counter the heavier FMIC in the front
Should be proud of yourself, you are a wise man. After all those mods your car still retains the factory equilibrium
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      02-27-2013, 06:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo
Let's go back to topic fellows, for people who need to buy an aftermarket IC which is the best one and why so. I know I will go with ETS when I need to add one, since it seems to come with least burden and thanks to everyone who confirmed this impression I had.
Least burden does not necessarily mean the IC is the best overall, just that the install is non-invasive. I wish someone would simply provide some compelling evidence that the ETS IC effectively and consistently reduces intake air temperature under high boost applications (18+ psi). I have yet to see this, just a bunch of guys recycling Internet "knowledge." Seriously guys, lets see some real data! If the 5" ETS IC was all that, why would they offer a 7" version?
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