Police Matter - HELP!!!

[schnitzer amir]

Hey Guys

Out of curiosity can the Police extract data from the ECU regarding speed you were doing?

i.e. If they were trying to prove you were speeding preceding the time of the alleged crime?

Please HELP!!!

[1911A145]

No. because certain things like speed sensors on the car, and different sized wheels, etc, can throw off the recorded speed reported on the dash, and in the computer, and thus are inadmissible in court. The officer will either have to prove he caught your speed on a laser/radar gun that has been recently calibrated to be correct, or must have been recently gone through training on how to visually detect how fast a car is going. This involves being able to be within +/- 3 MPH in order to hold that certification.

A cop is not aloud to just randomly say you were speeding, and then after the fact request your ECU in the car to prove his point on suspicion. "I think" is not good enough. There has to be probable cause and unless you went off a cliff and they had to determine after the fact what caused it and needed to verify it that way, it isn't going to hold up in front of a judge.

Without knowing your situation I have no idea as to what probable cause the officer has against you. My advise is to hire an attorney to represent you and your case.

[schnitzer amir]

PM Sent

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by 1911A145

...A cop is not aloud to just randomly say you were speeding...

I think in some states, yes they CAN! I seem to remember that in California the cops do not need to prove your actual speed. They just have to say you were driving faster than the other law abiding people and then the cops can use their "expert testimony" to estimate your speed. I remember thinking at the time I read that that is totally crazy. But thats the Republic of CA for you.

Also with CA... I think even they the roads have dashed yellow lines on the roads... in some areas(where it is posted) you can not pass. Every other state in the union uses SOLID painted lines to tell the driver that info. In CA they use a separate road signs to tell you when you can pass and not pass.

IF I am wrong please someone from CA correct me.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I think in some states, yes they CAN! I seem to remember that in California the cops do not need to prove your actual speed. They just have to say you were driving faster than the other law abiding people and then the cops can use their "expert testimony" to estimate your speed. I remember thinking at the time I read that that is totally crazy. But thats the Republic of CA for you.

Also with CA... I think even they the roads have dashed yellow lines on the roads... in some areas(where it is posted) you can not pass. Every other state in the union uses SOLID painted lines to tell the driver that info. In CA they use a separate road signs to tell you when you can pass and not pass.

IF I am wrong please someone from CA correct me.

It's a bit of a legal grey area, you'd be surprised as to how much it can vary state by state. In most states you need a gunned speed, but it's important to remember that this is independent of being issued a citation. A traffic citation is NOT an admission of guilt, you are free to fight it in court on the appointed date. There are a number of circumstantial factors that can change things, ie. if you are clearly weaving in and out of heavy traffic/driving in an eratic manner, the officer does not need to have gunned you in order to pull you over and issue you a citation for reckless driving. I don't deal in traffic law, but I live in a family of lawyers, so this is dinner table fodder during xmas and whatnot (lame I know, we're lawyers what can I say). Bottom line- If you are in significant legal trouble regarding speeding, or are not comfortable paying off a ticket and accepting the charges, get a lawyer. Wading into this on your own, with no real understanding re: the burden of proof for local/county/state statues on the books is a recipie to get destroyed in court. There are judges out there who will tear you apart if its clear you don't know what you are talking about.

[schnitzer amir]

It is important to note that the Police never caught the victim speeding, rather they are acting on the statements of others. I am not sure if these cars are technologically advanced to provide information e.g. 14th February the top speed recorded was 43mph? Does anyone know if the ECU holds such information or whether BMW have the capability of extracting such information?

[schnitzer amir]

This is a UK car

[1911A145]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

I think in some states, yes they CAN! I seem to remember that in California the cops do not need to prove your actual speed. They just have to say you were driving faster than the other law abiding people and then the cops can use their "expert testimony" to estimate your speed. I remember thinking at the time I read that that is totally crazy. But thats the Republic of CA for you.

Also with CA... I think even they the roads have dashed yellow lines on the roads... in some areas(where it is posted) you can not pass. Every other state in the union uses SOLID painted lines to tell the driver that info. In CA they use a separate road signs to tell you when you can pass and not pass.

IF I am wrong please someone from CA correct me.

Well I don't consider CA a part of the US...

[Jezzer]

I think it can only record the RPM, but could be wrong

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Jezzer

I think it can only record the RPM, but could be wrong

Yes, I think so too. RPM's and Miles/Kms and date and time.

[Yellowceta]

I remember a show that discussed accident recreation in which the speed of the vehicle was recorded in a 'black box' on the vehicle. Now, this black box wouldn't be able to store enough data to go back a day or two, but if they impounded the vehicle immediately after the supposed event, they may stand a chance of retrieving it. The black box was really meant to store particulars of the vehicle at the time of the accident and the moments just prior. It might have been triggered by an accident detection system as well. If I remember correctly, it was an accident involving a Cadillac Escalade and a prominent sports figure.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Yellowceta

I remember a show that discussed accident recreation in which the speed of the vehicle was recorded in a 'black box' on the vehicle. Now, this black box wouldn't be able to store enough data to go back a day or two, but if they impounded the vehicle immediately after the supposed event, they may stand a chance of retrieving it. The black box was really meant to store particulars of the vehicle at the time of the accident and the moments just prior. It might have been triggered by an accident detection system as well. If I remember correctly, it was an accident involving a Cadillac Escalade and a prominent sports figure.

Most SRS/Airbag systems work like that. BUT... they only hold a few seconds of raw date before an "event" ie air bag deployment. AND only a manufacture would have teh ability to go in and look at that date. Normally you need to see a 0.5G event for the SRS system to "arm" the airbag ground circuit, then when the SRS ecu see's enough G's 5g's usually, the system will provide the +12V to deploy the SRS air bags.

I am not sure how the BMW system works. But I would seriously doubt that you could gain access to that info thru the OBDII port and generic SW. Even a dealer couldn't gain that kind of access. Only a manufacture would.

OP - I think they are trying to make you confess under duress.

[Judge]

The short answer is: if the data is available, the police can get it with a warrant.

However...

If you or someone you know is facing criminal charges speak with a lawyer in your state who specializes in criminal/traffic law. Most lawyers will give you a free consultation and let you know what they can do or what your options are. Do not use this forum for legal advice as laws vary by state and no one can give you adequate advice without knowing all the details of the case and having access to everything such as police reports, witness statements and whatever else can be admissible in court. Only a retained attorney can obtain them. No matter how small this case may seem, if there is a possibility of criminal sanctions it would be foolish not to seek legal counsel.

[schnitzer amir]

Thank you for your comments, after having done some research as fas as I can understand the only information recorded on the ECU are top speed which is not date stamped and the RPM's which is date stamped when this exceeds the preset parameters. I believe the latter is to protect BMW from fraudulent claims on engines going boom. It was immediately after the the alleged incident and there may well have been a period of a few minutes of driving very slowly before the vehicle was impounded

[dorkdog]

I am curious about this as I recently received an offer from my insurance company's home office asking me to participate in a program that can decrease my insurance rates by plugging a dingle into my ECU port which then reports back to the insurance company info about how I drive and adjusts my premium accordingly.

I contacted my agent who, in a word or two said, 'Stay away!' because what the memo from 'Corporate' failed to tell me is that my rates could go up too.

Me: "So if I have to swerve and accelerate to avoid an accident, my rates could go up?"
Her: "I would imagine so"

So, if car insurance company can access this info, why not the cops?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dorkdog

I am curious about this as I recently received an offer from my insurance company's home office asking me to participate in a program that can decrease my insurance rates by plugging a dingle into my ECU port which then reports back to the insurance company info about how I drive and adjusts my premium accordingly.
I contacted my agent who, in a word or two said, 'Stay away!' because what the memo from 'Corporate' failed to tell me is that my rates could go up too.
Me: "So if I have to swerve and accelerate to avoid an accident, my rates could go up?"
Her: "I would imagine so"

Big Brother and surveillance allowing for effective control of the citizenry. Man, there is a scent of George Orwell's "1984" novel swirling in the air, and boy, it's pretty suffocating. IMHO good intentions don't survive here...

[schnitzer amir]

Dorkdog, thank you for your comments. With regards to the insurance I believe the only way for them to access the information on speed would be to supply you with the necessary equipment.

[PyratOne]

Originally Posted by dorkdog

I am curious about this as I recently received an offer from my insurance company's home office asking me to participate in a program that can decrease my insurance rates by plugging a dingle into my ECU port which then reports back to the insurance company info about how I drive and adjusts my premium accordingly.

I contacted my agent who, in a word or two said, 'Stay away!' because what the memo from 'Corporate' failed to tell me is that my rates could go up too.

Me: "So if I have to swerve and accelerate to avoid an accident, my rates could go up?"
Her: "I would imagine so"

So, if car insurance company can access this info, why not the cops?

I think it may be a matter of timing. In your case, insurance company plugs in a recording device prior. Then saves everything subsequent.

To OP, event had already happened and he's inquiring about the cars inherent recording capability.

Just my guess

Unless of course the insurance company can plug and retrieve history- which is a terrifying thought! I've got 130mph on the Autobahn!!!

[fastauto]

Just pay the ticket

[eeghie]

My understanding of the whole car electronics/IT architecture: speed is a real time variable and such variables are not stored. Black box and tracking registration are BMW and 3rd party up sell features that the owner installs at their own initiative/consent. Finally BMW had better be open about storing data in our car that could turn out to be self incriminating. (no speed memory reported in hidden dashboard menu's for ref: Hidden menus). Having the teleservices feature might enable retrieving some kind of speed info, on that I'm not knowledgeable .

With that cleared up, what happened?

[LukeM3]

Like others have said I know the ECU keeps data stored like RPM and speed and probably what gear as well. Honda, for example has had this data retrieval accessability for decades ( and it usually comes into play under the most extreme warranty issues, seizing up motor, etc).
I've got a GT1 (hopefully some of you other board members do too, so please chime in) that allows you to look/read/program/delete info from all the various modules. But I have never seen any info date stamped. It will give frequency and whether the value is current or inactive.
I'm sure with BMW's proprietary information they keep a lot of that stuff close to their chest. The authorities will have to have a very good case against you BEFORE they even start. Speeding, I don't think so. Manslaughter, quite possibly a different story.
But like Judge said above professional advise may/would help.
You reckon that's big brother? Go to Monaco or try Sydney, OZ. They reek of paranoia, while big brother's watching you, cameras everywhere!

[schnitzer amir]

Thank you for your comments gentlemen!